Oh Pagan Tree

[tinytim]

............................

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Martin:
"Again, since Christmas trees are not items of worship your statement does not apply. You are misquoting and misapplying Scripture. You are wrongly dividing the Word of Truth. If you don't want to put up a Christmas tree that is fine, if you don't want to celebrate Christmas, that is fine. I respect your conscience and your right to make those choices. However I do not respect your judgmental and unBiblical statements against those who make a different choice than you on this matter. Simply put, you are going beyond Scripture."

GE:
Not empty verbosity; but arrogant pedantics, is what I would call your talk.

But obviously you are yourself not able to see how you are appointing yourself the judge of others and even to act the authoritive Word of God.

Again, since Christmas trees are not items of worship [Martin deciding Christmas trees are not items of worship]
your statement does not apply ['cause Martin says so].
You are misquoting and misapplying Scripture [because Martin thinks you are misapplying and misquoting Scripture].
You are wrongly dividing the Word of Truth [I, Martin, decided and declared yours is wrongly dividing the Word of Truth].
If you don't want to put up a Christmas tree [Martin says] that is fine
if you don't want to celebrate Christmas, [by permission of one Martin] that is fine.
I respect your conscience and your right to make those choices [because one Martin'conscience is OK with it and declares it your right because he claims it his right].
However I [Martin, on authority of Martin] do not respect your judgmental and unBiblical statements [because Martin has judged it's judgmental and unBiblical]
against those who make a different choice than you on this matter [while they dare make a choice different than Martin's].
Simply put [I Martin the mighty declare], you are going beyond Scripture [because I Martin by authority of Martin say you are going beyond Scripture].

 

[Martin]

Not empty verbosity; but arrogant pedantics, is what I would call your talk.

==No "empty verbosity" only facts supported by Scripture.

But obviously you are yourself not able to see how you are appointing yourself the judge of others and even to act the authoritive Word of God.

==I stand on the Word of God, that is why each of my arguments were based on the Word of God. If that bothers you I'm sorry. However I am not prepared to compromise simply because the Word of Truth, upon which I stand, offends.

Martin deciding Christmas trees are not items of worship

==How many people do you know who use their Christmas trees as objects of worship?

I can't reply to the rest of your "reply" since you are not providing arguments of substance.

 

[Reformer]

I just wish the biggest problem in American Christianity was whether or not to put up a tree in our houses. How sad it is that we have churches full of unregenerate pagans but that doesn't matter, we must address the TREE. If we put this much energy into preaching the Gospel how much better off would we be? The Pagan trees won't go to hell, but the pagan people will, and here we are on page 11 talking about a tree.

 

[tinytim]

Martin:
"Again, since Christmas trees are not items of worship your statement does not apply. You are misquoting and misapplying Scripture. You are wrongly dividing the Word of Truth. If you don't want to put up a Christmas tree that is fine, if you don't want to celebrate Christmas, that is fine. I respect your conscience and your right to make those choices. However I do not respect your judgmental and unBiblical statements against those who make a different choice than you on this matter. Simply put, you are going beyond Scripture."

GE:
Not empty verbosity; but arrogant pedantics, is what I would call your talk.

But obviously you are yourself not able to see how you are appointing yourself the judge of others and even to act the authoritive Word of God.

Again, since Christmas trees are not items of worship [Martin deciding Christmas trees are not items of worship]
your statement does not apply ['cause Martin says so].
You are misquoting and misapplying Scripture [because Martin thinks you are misapplying and misquoting Scripture].
You are wrongly dividing the Word of Truth [I, Martin, decided and declared yours is wrongly dividing the Word of Truth].
If you don't want to put up a Christmas tree [Martin says] that is fine
if you don't want to celebrate Christmas, [by permission of one Martin] that is fine.
I respect your conscience and your right to make those choices [because one Martin'conscience is OK with it and declares it your right because he claims it his right].
However I [Martin, on authority of Martin] do not respect your judgmental and unBiblical statements [because Martin has judged it's judgmental and unBiblical]
against those who make a different choice than you on this matter [while they dare make a choice different than Martin's].
Simply put [I Martin the mighty declare], you are going beyond Scripture [because I Martin by authority of Martin say you are going beyond Scripture].

self edited....

 

[Matt Black]

It is against my better judgment that I jump head first into this awkward discussion. I have read through this thread and seen some amazing things. Sadly I never cease to be amazed at what some people believe.

I must warn ahead of time, this is going to be one of the strongest posts I have ever posted. So if you don't like hard talk, and tough truths, don't read this reply. You have been warned. :laugh:

A Christmas tree is not pagan, nor is it Christian, it is neutral. The tree talked about in Jeremiah 10:1-5 has no historical or Biblical connection to the modern practice of setting up Christmas trees. Therefore it is not correct to use that passage to argue against Christmas trees. That passage is dealing with idols that are worshipped. The Lord is telling his people not to worry about those idols because they can do nothing. There is only one God and He, and He alone, is God (Jer 10:6ff). Using that passage to argue against Christmas trees is a very good example of a historical, exegetical fallacy. People who use that passage have not considered the context of the verse or the historical situation that brought about the writing of that verse.

The Bible says that "one person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God" (Rom 14:5-6). We are not to judge someone for celebrating or not celebrating a day (holiday). Scripture is very clear on that matter. Paul said, "Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand" (Rom 14:4). In another place Paul said that we should not allow anyone "to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day" (Col 2:16). These are personal matters and have no sinful implications. A person who celebrates Christmas by thanking the Lord for His mercy, grace, and work, is doing nothing wrong. A person who, like the early American Puritans, does not celebrate Christmas because he/she believes that it would not be in agreement with their understanding is doing no wrong. A person who puts up a Christmas tree and decorates it to celebrate Christ's coming is doing nothing wrong. In the same way, a person who does not is doing nothing wrong. Scripture does not command us to celebrate Christ's birth, but there is nothing in Scripture that tells us not to. In some ways I believe the issue of Christmas and Christmas trees is simular to the situation with meat that Paul talks about in Romans 14:13-23 (etc).

Now, with that out of the way, I want to deal with some of the unhistorical and unBiblical remarks made by the poster antiaging.



==That is a perfect example of what I call the "origins fallacy". The "origins fallacy" assumes that because something had questionable roots (etc) or uses at one point that it must always be bad. That kind of thinking is clearly a fallacy. The modern practice of putting up Christmas trees has no historical connection to Roman festivals (etc). People who set up Christmas trees today are doing so to celebrate Christ's birth or to celebrate the season. Whatever their reasons may or may not be, there is no connection to pagan practices of the past. People do not worship their Christmas trees nor are Christmas trees, by themselves, considered religious symbols or worship (ie...idols). Today Christmas trees are little more than decoration to mark a period of celebration.

As for "baal worship", please show me the historical connection between Christmas trees and the false deity baal mentioned in the Old Testament. I know you can't since there is not a connection (direct or otherwise). Most likely you are simply parrotting something someone told you.




==Again, since Christmas trees are not items of worship your statement does not apply. You are misquoting and misapplying Scripture. You are wrongly dividing the Word of Truth. If you don't want to put up a Christmas tree that is fine, if you don't want to celebrate Christmas, that is fine. I respect your conscience and your right to make those choices. However I do not respect your judgmental and unBiblical statements against those who make a different choice than you on this matter. Simply put, you are going beyond Scripture.



==Again you are guilty of a historical and exegetical fallacy. In the passages you quote the issue is worshipping pagan gods. The modern practice of decorating Christmas trees has nothing to do with worshipping false gods. Modern Christmas trees are nothing more than decoration to mark the season. As for "baal worship", it has no connection (historically or Biblically).

Since God gave the greatest gift, I don't see anything with the practice of giving gifts to loved ones to celebrate that greatest of gifts.



==More of your origins fallacy. You have made no direct link between modern Christmas trees and baal worship.

:applause: :thumbs:

 

[EdSutton]

I started reading the thread, then I saw who posted the OP. No need to read any further. I also don't want to say too much in case the Catholics are now watching me through my computer monitor.

Heh! Heh! Heh!

Ed

 

[Thinkingstuff]

So if I can't put silver or gold on the tree how about bronze or copper? Just curious?

 

[Martin]

self edited....

==I love that, maybe I should try it from time to time :laugh: .

 

[Palatka51]

Martin:
"Again, since Christmas trees are not items of worship your statement does not apply. You are misquoting and misapplying Scripture. You are wrongly dividing the Word of Truth. If you don't want to put up a Christmas tree that is fine, if you don't want to celebrate Christmas, that is fine. I respect your conscience and your right to make those choices. However I do not respect your judgmental and unBiblical statements against those who make a different choice than you on this matter. Simply put, you are going beyond Scripture."

GE:
Not empty verbosity; but arrogant pedantics, is what I would call your talk.

But obviously you are yourself not able to see how you are appointing yourself the judge of others and even to act the authoritive Word of God.

Again, since Christmas trees are not items of worship [Martin deciding Christmas trees are not items of worship]
your statement does not apply ['cause Martin says so].
You are misquoting and misapplying Scripture [because Martin thinks you are misapplying and misquoting Scripture].
You are wrongly dividing the Word of Truth [I, Martin, decided and declared yours is wrongly dividing the Word of Truth].
If you don't want to put up a Christmas tree [Martin says] that is fine
if you don't want to celebrate Christmas, [by permission of one Martin] that is fine.
I respect your conscience and your right to make those choices [because one Martin'conscience is OK with it and declares it your right because he claims it his right].
However I [Martin, on authority of Martin] do not respect your judgmental and unBiblical statements [because Martin has judged it's judgmental and unBiblical]
against those who make a different choice than you on this matter [while they dare make a choice different than Martin's].
Simply put [I Martin the mighty declare], you are going beyond Scripture [because I Martin by authority of Martin say you are going beyond Scripture].

There was a time in my life when I used to not put up a tree. Because of the scripture that has been posted in this thread by me and others made me rethink just where our traditions come from. I saw that these customs were not biblical and as such saw that there was no reason for me to be trapped by customs of men. This was not the way I was raised as a child. We always had a tree and did all the Christmas customs a Christian family would do. I carried this tradition into my young adulthood until I began to question these customs. I preached several messages on this subject and until just a year ago I came to the realization that to worship something is to bow before it, pray to it and trust it's guidance for my life. The tree or anything else in my life never fit this definition of worship for me and I realized that on Christ did. The tree is back and decorations are a joy to share with the family.

Mockery during those years of misguidance was beginning to harden my heart but God is always able to clear things up, as long as one continues to stay in the Word.

And I still stand by what I had said in a previous post in this thread;

Victory in that faith in Christ has overcome the paganism of our Gentile fathers. The traditions of trees, logs, stockings and St Nick are symbols of the ancient past that now bow to the God of Heaven that cared enough to send His Son to a world that knew Him not. John 3:16 rules, not the writings of some ancient Babylonian text.

 

[Matt Black]

So if I can't put silver or gold on the tree how about bronze or copper? Just curious?

And if my 'ornaments' are fake silver and fake gold, does that make me a fake pagan (as well as only having a plastic tree)?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And if my 'ornaments' are fake silver and fake gold, does that make me a fake pagan (as well as only having a plastic tree)?

Good point. I've never seen tinsel made of actual silver or gold. Rather expensive tree that. And from what I remember of ancient pagan cults did they also nail someone's Intestine to a tree and let them die there? Also weren't the trees that were venerated by silver and gold to those other gods actually oak trees and birch and the such rather than evergreens? Also curious.

 

[Matt Black]

I can only speak for Europe, but here it was oaks and birch trees which were worshipped by the pagans, particularly by the Germans and Lithuanians; the latter's practices are reasonably well-documented since they only converted to Christianity in the late 14th century. I think the chap Jim was referring to (who cut down the pagan oaks) was St Boniface when he went to convert the Frisians and other north German tribes in the 8th century, but I can't be sure

[ETA - have just searched Wikipedia and indeed it was St Boniface who cut down Thor's oak]

 

[DHK]

A Christmas tree is not pagan, nor is it Christian, it is neutral.

Nothing is "neutral" when it is involved in "worship" or in a religious service or in a religious holiday. That is what makes Christmas trees, etc. so different from the symbolic things that are used at New Year's Day. Each nation has different symbolic traditions incorporated into their celebration of New Year's. That doesn't bother us at all, for New Year's is completely secular and has nothing to do with Christianity, the birth of Christ, etc. The same goes for the days of the week: Sunday, (the day to worship of the sun). That is simply the etymology of the word. It is secular, and a secular name for the day. Likewise Thursday (day of Thor). You get the idea.
But there is no connection with a tree and Christ, or His birth. A tree doesn't have Christian significance; it does have pagan significance when put into a religious context. It is wrong to pass it off as amoral when it is put into a religious context. Nothing is amoral in a religious context.

The tree talked about in Jeremiah 10:1-5 has no historical or Biblical connection to the modern practice of setting up Christmas trees.

The principle is there. "Learn not the way of the heathen" This is what the heathen did. Why do people copy the ways of the heathen, even if they say they are not worshiping it, even if they don't take it that far? Why even start?

Therefore it is not correct to use that passage to argue against Christmas trees. That passage is dealing with idols that are worshipped. The Lord is telling his people not to worry about those idols because they can do nothing. There is only one God and He, and He alone, is God (Jer 10:6ff). Using that passage to argue against Christmas trees is a very good example of a historical, exegetical fallacy. People who use that passage have not considered the context of the verse or the historical situation that brought about the writing of that verse.

You have not studied the OT well have you. Using your logic we might as well throw out the entire OT, and disregard Paul's command:

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
--Referring to a number of OT events, he writes that these things were written for examples and for our admonition. What else does he write:

1 Corinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.
--Do we today have a problem with idolatry? You better believe we do. And it is at this season where it becomes most evident (I am not talking about trees either).
Paul wasn't the only one concerned about this:

1 John 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
--John also had a great concern for idolatry. The Bible is a timeless book.

Read the book of Hosea. Time after time the nation of Israel strayed away from Jehovah and went after other gods like Baal, and not yet completely leaving the worship of Jehovah. They tried to do both at the same time. The committed idolatry at the same time as they worshiped Jehovah.
At the same time as we worship the Lord, we allow materialism, sports, food, money, family, business, leisure, and all other kinds of things to get in our way of worshiping God. An idol is anything that comes between you and God. You may not worship a tree, but I am certain that there may be some other idol in your life that you probably need to take care of. There are in most people's lives.

The Bible says that "one person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God" (Rom 14:5-6). We are not to judge someone for celebrating or not celebrating a day (holiday). Scripture is very clear on that matter. Paul said, "Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand" (Rom 14:4). In another place Paul said that we should not allow anyone "to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day" (Col 2:16). These are personal matters and have no sinful implications.

You just contradicted yourself. They are personal matters, but they do have sinful implications. You quoted from Romans 14. Read the conclusion.
Whatsoever is not of faith is sin! If you cannot put up a Christmas tree in good conscience without any doubt that you are doing something wrong then it is sin. You must have full assurance in your heart that you are doing the right thing. That is why knowledge is important. Learn not the way of the heathen. What is the way of the heathen! What is the way of the heathen. How did Christmas originate and how is it's traditions connected to "the way of the heathen?" If this is known, then I dare say one could put up a Christmas tree in good conscience and their conscience would condemn them. For whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

A person who celebrates Christmas by thanking the Lord for His mercy, grace, and work, is doing nothing wrong.

"Christ-mas" is the mass of Christ, a Catholic celebration. Why not celebrate the birth of Christ, and why not do it several times a year, every time the pastor preaches on it, which ought to be more than once a year. Why do we have to have a special day to celebrate the birth of Christ, especially when it is held on a day that simply replaces a heathen celebration. Christ was born in March or April, sometime in the spring--not in the dead of winter. This fact we know for sure.

A person who, like the early American Puritans, does not celebrate Christmas because he/she believes that it would not be in agreement with their understanding is doing no wrong.

Not in agreement with their understanding of Scripture. They were right.

A person who puts up a Christmas tree and decorates it to celebrate Christ's coming is doing nothing wrong.

If there is nothing wrong with it, then you should be able to back it up with Scripture, not the other way around. Trees have nothing to do with the birth of Christ. Why not interview some Druids? Have you ever witnessed to one? I have.

In the same way, a person who does not is doing nothing wrong. Scripture does not command us to celebrate Christ's birth, but there is nothing in Scripture that tells us not to.

I agree. It is a great time to celebrate the birth of Christ if that is what you do, but alas that is not what you are doing if you are following the world and putting up Christmas trees, decorations, etc. The way of the world (heathen) is not the way of Christ. Come out from among them and be ye separate saith the Lord. The celebration of the birth of Christ has nothing to do with the wishy-washy sentimentality pagan emotional attachment to Christmas trees, yule logs, mistletoe, candles, Christmas lights, and all of the other pagan and worldly attractions that go with it.

Perhaps Antiaging got his origins wrong. But there is an origin to Christmas. And it isn't fallacious. But it is pagan. It never started as Christian. Christmas started as a festival to replace a pagan festival that was totally pagan in its roots. Why do you think it is in December, very close to the shortest day of the year. There is a very good reason for that. Perhaps I will get into that later. But this post is long enough.

 

[annsni]

Perhaps Antiaging got his origins wrong. But there is an origin to Christmas. And it isn't fallacious. But it is pagan. It never started as Christian. Christmas started as a festival to replace a pagan festival that was totally pagan in its roots. Why do you think it is in December, very close to the shortest day of the year. There is a very good reason for that. Perhaps I will get into that later. But this post is long enough.

But if something is done to replace something else, does that mean that it's based in that something else?

Christmas was created as Christmas. While it was decided to do it around the time of the other "holiday", it is not based on that holiday.

 

[Jim1999]

A tree is a tree is a tree until WE place some significance to it. Martin Luther turned the ash tree into something significant to him and German Christians around the season they deemed to be Christmas. Why do we need to make so much out of something like a tree.

There are plenty of things used by other religions, but this sholdn't prevent us from using these things for good.

In the words of a famous writer; "Much ado about nothing." Lets get on with it!

May Father Christmas fill your stockings with something more than charcoal,

Jim

 

[Thinkingstuff]

"Christ-mas" is the mass of Christ, a Catholic celebration. Why not celebrate the birth of Christ, and why not do it several times a year, every time the pastor preaches on it, which ought to be more than once a year. Why do we have to have a special day to celebrate the birth of Christ, especially when it is held on a day that simply replaces a heathen celebration. Christ was born in March or April, sometime in the spring--not in the dead of winter. This fact we know for sure.

So are you suggesting that (I guessing this is your reasoning) since Catholicism are basically a pagan religion that is comprable to what was shown on Zeitgeist and that Christ Mass is a celebration of a pagan ritual deity like Mythra that we must not celebrate the holiday at all? Is this correct?

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK,

Regarding how we view a Christmas tree, here is something interesting, from the scriptures...

“I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away;[a] and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing."

Sticking a tree in your living room is not a sin.

How you view it makes it sin or not.

Why not simply view the tree as a representation of Christ, bearing many beautiful fruits through us?


:godisgood:

 

[DHK]

DHK,

Regarding how we view a Christmas tree, here is something interesting, from the scriptures...



Sticking a tree in your living room is not a sin.

How you view it makes it sin or not.
Why not simply view the tree as a representation of Christ, bearing many beautiful fruits through us?

If you are into typology there is a big difference between the "tree" in Jeremiah 10 and the "vine" of John 15. That is where you must look in the Bible for comparisons. A Christmas tree has nothing to do with the birth of Christ. The only thing that you (as in you people) are defending is sentimentality, and that is all. You are emotionally attached to a tree, and don't want to give it up. There is nothing Biblical about it. It has pagan roots. It has nothing to do with the birth of Christ. If you want to celebrate the birth of Christ why not "come out from among them and be ye separate," as the Lord says, and do away with what the world does? Is it necessary to follow the "customs of the heathen?"

 

[Martin]

Nothing is "neutral" when it is involved in "worship" or in a religious service or in a religious holiday. That is what makes Christmas trees, etc. so different from the symbolic things that are used at New Year's Day.

==Its a decoration not a idol or object of worship.

But there is no connection with a tree and Christ, or His birth. A tree doesn't have Christian significance; it does have pagan significance when put into a religious context. It is wrong to pass it off as amoral when it is put into a religious context. Nothing is amoral in a religious context.

==You are falling into the origins fallacy there. The "root" or "origin" of a practice is not the total picture. We have to look at how it is practiced today. Christmas trees are nothing more than decorations. They are used by secular and religious people. Very few, if anyone worships their Christmas tree or uses it as a religious prop. A Christmas tree can be decorated with secular ornaments, family ornaments, or religious ornaments. It is just a tree with stuff hanging on it. It is decorated for decoration purposes. It is not a religious symbol.

The principle is there. "Learn not the way of the heathen" This is what the heathen did.

==No, it is not what the heathen did. In an earlier reply on this board I pointed out that there is no historical or Biblical connection between Christmas trees and Jeremiah 10:1-6. That was a situation in which a tree was being used as an idol and not simply as a form of decoration. Two different situations, two very different contexts. You can't yank Jeremiah 10 out of context and apply it to a different type of tree. You say the "principle is there", I say it is not. Why? Because these are two very different things with very different purposes. I think your statement only serves to confuse the issue.

You have not studied the OT well have you. Using your logic we might as well throw out the entire OT, and disregard Paul's command: 1 Corinthians 10:11

==Nice try but that is nothing but a strawman argument. Again you are trying to compare apples and oranges. One was an idol used for pagan worship, another is a decoration used during the Christmas season. One was a direct violation of the Law of God (idol), the other is nothing more than decoration used to celebrate a holiday that, btw, Scripture never says we should celebrate. In 1Cor 10 Paul was talking about things that were in common. You are talking about things that are not in common.

If you want to talk about idols in modern society the Christmas tree should be the least of your concerns. The real idols today are politics, celebrity, money, cars, and things like that.

Read the book of Hosea. Time after time the nation of Israel strayed away from Jehovah and went after other gods like Baal, and not yet completely leaving the worship of Jehovah. They tried to do both at the same time. The committed idolatry at the same time as they worshiped Jehovah.

==Again, apples and oranges. People don't put up Christmas trees for the purpose of worshipping them or as idols to false gods. Christmas trees are decoration.

You just contradicted yourself. They are personal matters, but they do have sinful implications. You quoted from Romans 14. Read the conclusion.
Whatsoever is not of faith is sin! If you cannot put up a Christmas tree in good conscience without any doubt that you are doing something wrong then it is sin.

==I agree, but I don't believe it is a matter of sin. And I don't personally know anyone who does. So I have not contradicted myself. The issue of sin would be the person who is weak in faith contradicting their conscience not in the tree itself. Putting up a Christmas tree is not sinful nor good.

How did Christmas originate and how is it's traditions connected to "the way of the heathen?" If this is known, then I dare say one could put up a Christmas tree in good conscience and their conscience would condemn them.

==That is nothing but origins fallacy. How Christmas began, how Christmas trees got into the mix, and the origins of Santa Clause, have nothing to do with how those things are practiced today.

"Christ-mas" is the mass of Christ, a Catholic celebration.

==More origins fallacy. Christmas was a Catholic celebration. That is why the early American Puritans and seperatists would not celebrate it. However it is no longer the 17th century and the holiday is no longer simply a Catholic celebration. It has grown away from that. If you want to be critical of Christmas in the modern age I suspect there are plenty of better targets than Christmas trees. Most people no longer celebrate Christ's birth on Christmas day. The day has been turned into a marketing ploy for greedy people to run up debt and buy things they don't need. The origins of Christmas (etc) is not the issue anymore. The issue is how it is celebrated today. I'm sure on that point we would agree on much. But as long as you are stuck on the origins, we are not going to agree at all.

Why not celebrate the birth of Christ, and why not do it several times a year, every time the pastor preaches on it, which ought to be more than once a year. Why do we have to have a special day to celebrate the birth of Christ, especially when it is held on a day that simply replaces a heathen celebration.

==Here I point you to Romans 14:5-6. True Christians should celebrate Christ's ministry, past and present, every day of their lives.

Christ was born in March or April, sometime in the spring--not in the dead of winter. This fact we know for sure.

==We don't know when Christ was born. Last time I checked the literature on that issue historians and theologians come to different conclusions. Some say fall, others say spring, a few others can't rule out winter. We don't know when Christ was born. In fact we are not 100% sure of the year. Based on the year of King Herod's death we can probably come within a year or two (give or take). However we don't know for sure.

If there is nothing wrong with it, then you should be able to back it up with Scripture, not the other way around.

==That is a strawman argument because you know, like I do, that Scripture does not deal with the celebration of Christmas. Why? Because, as far as we know, the early Church did not celebrate the birth of Christ on any particular day. The practice of Christmas developed later and has evolved (changed) from there. However there are principles there we can apply to the celebration of Christmas. Romans 14:4-6 is one such principle. As long as Christ is the focus it is not a matter of idols or what the Catholic Church did or what the Roman Empire did. Christmas trees are just decoration. If a person takes personal offense at Christmas trees or believes Christmas trees are sinful then that person should not put one up. However there is nothing sinful in putting up a Christmas tree.

I agree. It is a great time to celebrate the birth of Christ if that is what you do, but alas that is not what you are doing if you are following the world and putting up Christmas trees, decorations, etc.

==That is not fact, that is opinion. You are free to hold to that opinion according to Scripture. However it is not a Biblical fact that putting up Christmas decorations is wrong. As I have pointed out, people put up decorations for different reasons. The importance is the reason beyond the otherwise meaningless action.

Perhaps Antiaging got his origins wrong. But there is an origin to Christmas. And it isn't fallacious. But it is pagan. It never started as Christian.

==That does not matter. The Christmas celebration has evolved, it has changed, and it is no longer simply a Catholic celebration. If you can't see, I suppose thats going to have to be fine with me.