Oh Pagan Tree

[Matt Black]

:applause:

 

[sag38]

Ok everyone, take in one viewing of "It's A Charlie Brown Christmas" and call me after the new year.

 

[Martin]

You cannot serve two masters. Choose ye this day whom ye will serve. Whosoever shall be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. The Scripture is quite clear on this point. My argument is based on worldliness.

==Your argument is based upon the presupposition that Christmas decorations are worldly. I, and many other Bible believing Christians, don't share your presupposition.

My basic assertion is that the so-called celebration of Christ is done by imitating "the way of the heathen".

==That is nonsense. Putting up Christmas decorations is no more "imitating the way of the heathen" then wearing a suite and tie, a wedding ring, putting family photos in the house, driving a car, or shopping at Walmart. Again, this seems to be more about your presupposition and where it leads. It also seems, from your words, that your negative presupposition about Christmas decorations is based largely on your observation of abuses.

Your "origins fallacy" is an origins fallacy in and of itself that works against you. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. One cannot ignore history. And every time one points out the origin of any one thing, you don't have the right to call it a fallacy; only your opinion.

==Since I am a college history instructor I believe I know the importance of history. I also know how people abuse and misuse history to "prove" their various agendas. The origins fallacy occurs when someone condemns or justifies something based on its origin while ignoring the changes that have occured. You are not learning from the past, in fact I would argue that your position is stuck in the past. Christmas is no longer a Catholic holiday nor does it have anything to do with the Roman sun god or anything like that. For Bible believing Christians, Christmas is about the Lord Jesus Christ. In our modern culture Christmas trees are a part of that celebration. Just as nativity scenes, candles, carols, Church programs, and family meals serving turkey. Your points about Christmas trees may have worked several hundred years ago, but your points don't work when talking about Christians today. Even in regard to lost people I am not sure that your points work. After all most lost people don't worship their Christmas trees.

Trying to explain "heathen customs" of American Christians to new believers in other third world nations who have never heard of such things is not easy. It is actually a stumbling block.

==Trying to explain many western customs to people who live in third world countries probably would be tough. However that is not the issue. The issue is your claim that Christians who set up Christmas trees are following the ways of the pagan.

All of it has to do with worldliness vs. holiness. Which lifestyle have you chosen. Do you imitate the way of the world or the way of Christ?

==Christmas trees, or a lack thereof, do not constitute a lifestyle of holiness or sinfulness. If you believe it does then your view of holiness and sinfulness needs some strengthening.

42 times is the word grove/groves used in relation to Baal or idol worship. Trees in the Bible are often connected to idolatrous worship.

==Not really sure what that has to do with anything. You seem to be taking things out of context in a desperate attempt to justifiy your position. You can't just blindly remove things from their context like that. The Bible does not connect all trees, or use of trees, with idolatrous worship and Christmas trees are not items of idolatrous worship. Christmas trees are not worshipped nor are they viewed as gods or sources of power.

The Israelites, even when they did not worship at them, were still commanded to cut them down. Why? They were heathen objects of worship. They were associated with paganism.

==Text reference.

Yes, Mr. Freud. I have learned my lesson. I will avoid personal illustrations because you will not learn from them, just turn them around and use them to personally attack me. That is very kind of you, isn't it?

==Name calling. Sadly that is all too common in these type of discussions. I have not attacked you personally. Though I have, and will continue to, attack your teaching on this matter every chance I get since I believe it to be unBiblical legalism. You are misusing and wrongly dividing the Word of Truth on this matter. I am not saying your a bad person or that you are doing it on purpose. I imagine that you are very sincere in your beliefs on this matter. However as you well know being sincere does not equal being correct. Many sincere people, Christian and non-Christian alike, have drifted off into all sorts of errors. This is no different.

You keep using your presuppositions and you don't seem to realize that I, and many other Christians in this thread, don't share those presuppositions. Your presuppose that Christmas decorations are pagan (ie...bad) and therefore you claim that Christians who put up such decorations are following the world. As for me, I can't agree with your presuppositions. Why not? Well for one your whole argument is based on past uses of such decorations and not current Christian uses. Second you continue to try to prove your case by quoting/referencing Scriptures that have nothing to do with the issue. You seem unwilling to acknowledge that the trees used as idols in the Old Testament are not connected to Christmas trees or that Christians do not use their Christmas trees as idols. Again this all boils down to presuppositions. You are presumming something I can't go along with.

You still don't get it do you? How does the world celebrate "Christmas?" They eat, drink, and be merry. They party, and get drunk. They put up their trees and decorate their houses. They take their children to see Santa Claus, and all at the same time during this season they will act very pious and religious. That is Christmas.

==You are mixing a whole lot of stuff in there together. I don't know Christians who get drunk or only act pious and religious at Christmas. I don't care what non-Christians do. Christmas is the least of their problems. It seems that you are throwing the baby out with the bath water.

It is not the celebration of the birth of Christ, but it is Christmas. "Learn not the way of the heathen." If you are going to celebrate the birth of Christ, then do so; but not the way the heathen do it (the unsaved).

==There is no contradiction between celebrating the birth of Christ and Christmas trees. None whatsoever. Again this goes back to the whole
presupposition thing.

Where did the Christmas tree originate from: God or the devil?
If you can say God, then demonstrate it through Scripture. Otherwise you have your answer.

==There you go with the origins fallacy again. God can take what the world meant for evil and turn for good. The origins of Christmas trees is no longer important. It has no effect on how Christians celebrate Christmas today.

Your profile says that your are 34 and that you teach history. I have been teaching in Bible College for as many years as you are old. "My plenty of experience" tells me that you have no idea what "legalism" is.

==The number of years you have taught at a Bible College is totally irrelevant. People older and more experienced than both of us can and have fallen into error. Look at the Apostle Peter in Galatians 2:11-14.

As for me not knowing what legalism is, I know very well what it is. Legalism is adding rules to the Word of God. Yes, it is adding to Scripture.

And because you don't have a Biblical definition of legalism is the reason why you do not understand that Romans 14:4-6 has no relevance in this discussion.

==Romans 14:4-6 has everything to do with this discussion since it is about liberty issues. You are on the side of those who claimed it was wrong to eat meat, I am with those who say "nothing is unclean in itself". I don't believe you should put up a Christmas tree (Rom 14:23) but I also know that you should not condemn Christians who do (Rom 14:4,13-14).

You fail to see any relevance to culture; culture that is not religious. Even the unsaved use a ring to show that they are married. They also sign a marriage document also. Do you consider that worldly? If by worldly you consider that, and mowing the grass, and vacuuming the house, then you have a lot to learn.

==It seems to me that you are picking and choosing. It is okay for a Christian to follow the world in some areas but not in others? Your arguments are contradictory.

If your statement is true then it would not be necessary for you to set up a Christmas tree and decorate it, would it. That has nothing to do with the birth of Christ, only with heathen practices. So which is it: worldliness or Godliness?

==I don't set up a Christmas tree, or not set up a Christmas tree, based on anything anyone tells me. If I set one up one year it is because I determined to do so. If I don't set one up one year it is because I determined not to do so. Either way it has nothing to do with what the lost world says/does. And again, Christmas trees have nothing to do with worldliness or Godliness. Well at least no more than any other thing that Christians and none Christians share in (wedding rings, etc).

I choose the Bible. The Bible says nothing about trees, decorations, and such.

==The Bible says nothing about wedding rings (etc). Those are cultural issues just like Christmas trees and decorations. As long as they are not idols (etc) then there is nothing wrong with them. Why? Because "nothing is unclean in itself".

The Bible never condemns the celebrating of Christmas or Christmas trees.

 

[Martin]

Ok everyone, take in one viewing of "It's A Charlie Brown Christmas" and call me after the new year.

==O, dear sag38, don't you know that Charlie Brown and Christmas trees are all part of a pagan tradition that is based on the world's values?

Sort of slapstick I know but that is how silly some of the arguments in this thread are getting.

Have a great Christmas! :wavey:

 

[Martin]

Christians and Christmas Trees

Dr. John MacArthur has made comments on the issue of Christmas trees and Christians. He makes several good points so I thought it would be good to link it here.

"We see no valid reason to make any connection between Christmas trees and wooden idols or the worship of trees. Those who insist on making such associations should take note of the warnings in Scripture against judging one another in doubtful things (see Romans 14 & 1Corinthians 10:23-33)...There is no connection between the worship of idols and the use of Christmas trees. We should not be anxious about baseless arguments against Christmas decorations. Rather, we should be focused on the Christ of Christmas and giving all diligence to remembering the real reason for the season." LINK

And John Piper has some interesting suggestions about Christmas decorations. Personally I like some of his ideas and may put them into practice next year...

"In the second category of neutral decorations we put the Christmas tree, candles, holly, wreaths, bells, chestnuts, snow, colored lights, etc., etc. All of these can enhance our celebration beautifully if they are given a Christ-centered context. The rumor that the pastor is opposed to Christmas trees is mostly false (as are most rumors, thank God!). His real opinion is that in the Church sanctuary we should, if anywhere, be as explicitly Christ-centered and Christ-exalting as possible. The Christmas tree in our culture does not have that significance and therefore it is not as useful in directing us to Christ as some other things. But the pastor is not by any means opposed to your creative efforts to sanctify God’s creation and make your tree a beacon to the glory of Christ—both at home and at church." LINK

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Martin, the way I see you go all-out to defend and protect the 'christ-mass' tree, it more and more looks to me like actually worshipping the darn thing! Why cannot you part with the silly thing?

My grand children like their christ-mass tree, and even my wife and children do. I cannot understand how the adults do not see any connection with idolatry, but they honestly don't and I have made peace with it. For the sake of family love and harmony- nothing else.

But I shall not say a word in defense of it. See I spell it with a small 'c'.

This enigma reminds me of the SDAs who have a lot to say about the Catholics worshipping crosses and stuff - which they are right about. However, they have these ugly pictures 'of the Lord' all over, even openly against walls. That is hypocrisy in my view.

No, DHK has the guts to say what he has said against the 'christ-mass' tree, and I admire him for it.

What puts me off most about the thing, is its being associated with the 'mass', that most despicable and blasphemous of false gods there is. In my heart I know I cannot compromise - I can only pray for forgiveness for my weakness; I love my family too much. Even though Jesus commanded us to leave our families and follow Him. I know He will understand. Well is it that I believe, OSAS, thank God.

 

[Martin]

the way I see you go all-out to defend and protect the 'christ-mass' tree, it more and more looks to me like actually worshipping the darn thing! Why cannot you part with the silly thing?

==I am arguing against a legalistic and unBiblical position. I have said that it does not matter to me who does, or does not, put up a Christmas tree.

My grand children like their christ-mass tree, and even my wife and children do. I cannot understand how the adults do not see any connection with idolatry, but they honestly don't and I have made peace with it. For the sake of family love and harmony- nothing else.

==Sounds like you are handling it the best way you can. Always good to have peace in the home :laugh: . However I would disagree with your assertion that Christmas trees are connected with idolatry. Christmas trees are not objects of worship. Christmas trees are decorations, like flowers in a vase. One could turn either into an object of worship and thus idolatry. However by themselves they are not idols. It is what one does with them that makes the difference. As the Apostle Paul said, "nothing is unclean in itself" (Rom 14:14). Putting up a Christmas tree (today) has nothing to do with the Roman mass or any ancient pagan ritual. It is a cultural practice that people do to celebrate the Christmas season. Most Christians do it to celebrate what Christ has done. There is nothing evil about Christmas trees.

No, DHK has the guts to say what he has said against the 'christ-mass' tree, and I admire him for it.

==DHK is certainly forceful in defending what he believes and there is certainly nothing wrong with that (though I believe his position on this to be wrong). I wish more Christians had that kind of dedication.

What puts me off most about the thing, is its being associated with the 'mass', that most despicable and blasphemous of false gods there is. In my heart I know I cannot compromise - I can only pray for forgiveness for my weakness; I love my family too much.

==If you have those concerns then I would advise you to tread with caution. After all the Word is clear that, "to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean...But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin" (Rom 14:14,23). Doing something you believe to be wrong or compromise is wrong, even if what you are doing is not wrong or compromise. I would never advise someone to put up a Christmas tree (etc) if they are uncomfortable with it. That is not what I am saying in this thread. I am only saying that Christmas trees are not, within themselves, bad.

 

[dcorbett]

Ok everyone, take in one viewing of "It's A Charlie Brown Christmas" and call me after the new year.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKk9rv2hUfA

It is in my favorites.

 

[DHK]

Christmas trees are not objects of worship.

Let's put that statement to the test.
If Christmas trees are not objects of worship why do you (meaning the majority of the posters on this thread) demand that you need to have a Christmas tree in your houses or wherever, in your celebration of the birth of Christ? If it is not an object of worship or has nothing at all to do with worship, then you won't have any problem removing them from your houses will you?
But how many of you can actually do that? You can't. You are too emotionally attached to the idol that you subconsciously worship. Christmas won't be Christmas without a Christmas tree. Thus the tree itself has become a subliminal object of worship, whether you want to admit or not. If it wasn't you would have no trouble getting rid of it.
The Bible says "Give me your heart" That is what the Lord wants.
Your hearts have been given to a tree.
You cannot honestly say that 100% of your hearts have been given to the Lord, as long as your emotions hang on to that tree and you can't get rid of it. It is an idol hanging around your neck, dragging you down in your spiritual life.

Do you also sing:
O Christmas Tree; O Christmas Tree, etc.

It is a prayer to a tree, if you sing it. That is idolatry in its purest form. Worship belongs to God alone. Singing praises to a tree is definitely idolatry.

Nevertheless, if one cannot celebrate the birth of Christ without a tree in their house then they have a problem; IMO, it is a problem with idolatry. You are attached to something that you cannot get rid of while at the same time you are saying you are worshiping Christ. It has become part of your worship. You associate it with your worship. It has become your idol in your subconscious.

With other people money is their idol, or, family, business, materialism, sports, etc. There are many idols. There are many gods. Idolatry takes many forms.

 

[DHK]

==The Bible says nothing about wedding rings (etc). Those are cultural issues just like Christmas trees and decorations. As long as they are not idols (etc) then there is nothing wrong with them. Why? Because "nothing is unclean in itself".

The Bible never condemns the celebrating of Christmas or Christmas trees.

1. The Bible says much about marriages, weddings, betrothals, and things related to it. You need to study your Bible more.

Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Isaiah refers to marriage here. He refers to the jewels of the bride; the ornaments of the bridegroom. The Bible has much to say about wedding ceremonies if you are willing to study it.

You seem to be woefully unknowledgeable about the Biblical teaching of legalism and worldliness, both of which you have displayed a gross misunderstanding.
Maybe you should try again. You don't have the definitions even close.

Take Paul for example. He spoke out more against worldliness more than any other:
"Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind."
Was Paul worldly?
By your standards Paul was a very worldly man because you don't understand the Biblical concept of worldliness.

For example:
Paul traveled by modern transportation; he used ships. (how worldly!)
He traveled with Luke, a physician--who used the worldly technology of his day to treat people for their sicknesses instead of wholly trusting in the Lord (how worldly).
Paul was a tent-maker--a worldly occupation.
He preached in a barn, which was lit with something like a kerosene lamp (very worldly). Eutychus got sleepy and fell from the third loft.
In Rome, he had his own hired house. (again, worldly)

By your standards Paul was a very worldly man because he used worldly things.
But Paul teaches Do not be conformed to this world.
James says: Whosoever is a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
John says: Love not the world--If you love the world; the love of the Father is not in you.

1 John 2:15-16 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

By your standards Paul transgressed all of this. By your standards Paul was a very worldly man.
But go. Find out what these verses mean. For Paul was not a worldly man; he preached against worldliness as did the other apostles. You are very confused.

 

[Allan]

1. The Bible says much about marriages, weddings, betrothals, and things related to it. You need to study your Bible more.

Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Isaiah refers to marriage here. He refers to the jewels of the bride; the ornaments of the bridegroom. The Bible has much to say about wedding ceremonies if you are willing to study it.

You seem to be woefully unknowledgeable about the Biblical teaching of legalism and worldliness, both of which you have displayed a gross misunderstanding.
Maybe you should try again. You don't have the definitions even close.

Take Paul for example. He spoke out more against worldliness more than any other:
"Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind."
Was Paul worldly?
By your standards Paul was a very worldly man because you don't understand the Biblical concept of worldliness.

For example:
Paul traveled by modern transportation; he used ships. (how worldly!)
He traveled with Luke, a physician--who used the worldly technology of his day to treat people for their sicknesses instead of wholly trusting in the Lord (how worldly).
Paul was a tent-maker--a worldly occupation.
He preached in a barn, which was lit with something like a kerosene lamp (very worldly). Eutychus got sleepy and fell from the third loft.
In Rome, he had his own hired house. (again, worldly)

By your standards Paul was a very worldly man because he used worldly things.
But Paul teaches Do not be conformed to this world.
James says: Whosoever is a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
John says: Love not the world--If you love the world; the love of the Father is not in you.

1 John 2:15-16 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

By your standards Paul transgressed all of this. By your standards Paul was a very worldly man.
But go. Find out what these verses mean. For Paul was not a worldly man; he preached against worldliness as did the other apostles. You are very confused.

I have read this entire thread and must now comment on this portion, at the very least.

Martin has at least shown great grace and kindness in both his speach and arguments. You (DHK) have not appeared to give such. You put down and belittle Martin himself while Martin has at least given you either room to elaborate or the benifit of the doubt.

In reading your posts DHK one could be forgiven if they were to wonder if 'you' understand what worldliness is, when you yourself are posting with an attitude that is seemingly contradictory toward godliness. (yes, we all can tend to do this on debate boards but that is still no excuse - even for me) Typically worldiness is not a certain act but a continuence of actions (IOW - a style of life). However one can be said to be 'acting' worldly, refering to action done that is contrary to the actions they should be continuing in, most specifically as a believer toward godly behavior.


In order to properly understand this type of argument one must first define (1) what 'worship' is, (2) what constitutes an idol, and (3) how the bible defines idolitry.

How do you define these 3 things biblically?

 

[Allan]

1. The Bible says much about marriages, weddings, betrothals, and things related to it. You need to study your Bible more.

Isaiah 61:10 I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Isaiah refers to marriage here. He refers to the jewels of the bride; the ornaments of the bridegroom. The Bible has much to say about wedding ceremonies if you are willing to study it.

You seem to be woefully unknowledgeable about the Biblical teaching of legalism and worldliness, both of which you have displayed a gross misunderstanding.
Maybe you should try again. You don't have the definitions even close.

Take Paul for example. He spoke out more against worldliness more than any other:
"Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind."
Was Paul worldly?
By your standards Paul was a very worldly man because you don't understand the Biblical concept of worldliness.

For example:
Paul traveled by modern transportation; he used ships. (how worldly!)
He traveled with Luke, a physician--who used the worldly technology of his day to treat people for their sicknesses instead of wholly trusting in the Lord (how worldly).
Paul was a tent-maker--a worldly occupation.
He preached in a barn, which was lit with something like a kerosene lamp (very worldly). Eutychus got sleepy and fell from the third loft.
In Rome, he had his own hired house. (again, worldly)

By your standards Paul was a very worldly man because he used worldly things.
But Paul teaches Do not be conformed to this world.
James says: Whosoever is a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
John says: Love not the world--If you love the world; the love of the Father is not in you.

1 John 2:15-16 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

By your standards Paul transgressed all of this. By your standards Paul was a very worldly man.
But go. Find out what these verses mean. For Paul was not a worldly man; he preached against worldliness as did the other apostles. You are very confused.

A better comparison regarding weddings would have been flowers instead of wedding rings.

The phrase about 'loving the things of the world' is in respect placing them about the things of God or putting something else in Christ's place in our lives. IOW - exhaulting anything above God. If we love anything more than God then the Love of the Father is not in them. If a persons life is lived so as to fulfill any or all of these three aspects then he is of the world for that is what is most important to him and therefore he is not of God.

 

[EdSutton]

So here this is the subject, I guess.

Ed

 

[EdSutton]

Kissing madre under the mistletoe is akin to dancing in the oak groves with my Druid ancestors . . .

[FONT=Trebuchet MS, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT]

I don't care if this is from the Driuds, I'm gonna' try that with my 'madre' . . .

Hey, I like it. In fact, I'm gonna try it again!

I give that a real "thumbs up"!

Is that an Asheroth in my living room or a simple decoration?

Neither one! It's just one of our cats!

(Looks like it's Ernie!)

Ed

 

[padredurand]

Let's put that statement to the test.
If Christmas trees are not objects of worship why do you (meaning the majority of the posters on this thread) demand that you need to have a Christmas tree in your houses or wherever, in your celebration of the birth of Christ? If it is not an object of worship or has nothing at all to do with worship, then you won't have any problem removing them from your houses will you?
But how many of you can actually do that? You can't. You are too emotionally attached to the idol that you subconsciously worship. Christmas won't be Christmas without a Christmas tree.

A fiddler on the roof. Sounds crazy, no? But here, in our little village of Anatevka, you might say every one of us is a fiddler on the roof trying to scratch out a pleasant, simple tune without breaking his neck. It isn't easy. You may ask 'Why do we stay up there if it's so dangerous?' Well, we stay because Anatevka is our home. And how do we keep our balance? That I can tell you in one word: tradition!

Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof​

Tradition! Like turkey on Thanksgiving and fireworks on the 4th of July; hamburgers and hot dogs at a picnic and stink bait at a bullhead pond; cotton candy at the circus and the smell of diesel fuel at a truck stop; Abbot with Costello and Allen with Burns; O Canada to start a hockey game and God Bless America during the seventh inning stretch. I do not worship turkey nor fireworks, fast food nor stink bait, cotton candy nor diesel fuel, Abbot nor Allen, nor national songs. These things are part of the lexicon of my life... my traditions and more than likely the tradition of my forebears.

Could we have a Thanksgiving celebration without turkey? Absolutely, but it wouldn't be much fun. Could you start a hockey game without singing "O Canada"? No doubt, but it would not be very patriotic. Abbott without Costello? Doable but not very funny. Christmas without a Christmas Tree?

Am I emotionally attached to these things? You bet your bright yellow barn boots I am!! Emotional attachment and pagan worship are not the same thing - far from it. I am emotionally attached to my grandfather's pocket watch but I do not worship it. I am emotionally attached to my library but I do not worship it. I am emotionally attached to my old truck but I do not worship it. I am emotionally attached to many of my possessions but I do not worship them. I have made do with them and without them and I prefer to do with them. It is part of my tradition and my emotional attachments. That does not make me a pagan.

Our tree is simple. It is decorated with fond memories: a beaded bell that was on a wedding gifts, Baby's First Christmas from 1980, 1982 and 1984, a rusty old Santa that my paternal grandfather left for me before his death (I was 4 months old when he passed), ornaments from Germany and other places we have traveled and mementos of places we have travailed.

For us, the tree is our Ebenezer not an Asheroth.

I do not fear that it will supplant my faith nor make me speak in tongues...

O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum,
Wie treu sind deine Blätter!
Du grünst nicht nur zur Sommerzeit,
Nein auch im Winter, wenn es schneit.
O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum,
Wie treu sind deine Blätter!

 

[annsni]

Let's put that statement to the test.
If Christmas trees are not objects of worship why do you (meaning the majority of the posters on this thread) demand that you need to have a Christmas tree in your houses or wherever, in your celebration of the birth of Christ? If it is not an object of worship or has nothing at all to do with worship, then you won't have any problem removing them from your houses will you?
But how many of you can actually do that? You can't. You are too emotionally attached to the idol that you subconsciously worship. Christmas won't be Christmas without a Christmas tree. Thus the tree itself has become a subliminal object of worship, whether you want to admit or not. If it wasn't you would have no trouble getting rid of it.
The Bible says "Give me your heart" That is what the Lord wants.
Your hearts have been given to a tree.
You cannot honestly say that 100% of your hearts have been given to the Lord, as long as your emotions hang on to that tree and you can't get rid of it. It is an idol hanging around your neck, dragging you down in your spiritual life.

I will remove the tree when the Holy Spirit tells me to - not when a faceless name on the internet does. I have never once worshiped my tree nor anything else in my home. If my tree were to burn up, I'd not be heartbroken or forlorn.

Let me ask you this: Do you have a turkey on Thanksgiving? Do you have a birthday cake on birthdays? Do you have a BBQ on the 4th? Do you have a car in your driveway? Do you have a home? Do you have blankets on your bed? If you insist on any of these, are they idols? No. I insist on clean laundry but that's not an idol. I insist on a hot shower, but that's not an idol. The ONLY thing that would break my heart to lose in this life is a loved one, so if that makes them idols, then that's between me and the Lord. Otherwise it can all go. But just because it can go, should it? No. Because the Spirit of the Living God has not shown me at all that they need to. Period. So I'm comfortable, thank you very much.

Do you also sing:
O Christmas Tree; O Christmas Tree, etc.

It is a prayer to a tree, if you sing it. That is idolatry in its purest form. Worship belongs to God alone. Singing praises to a tree is definitely idolatry.

Ummm- really? You've heard me sing this? That's interesting because I hate the song.

Nevertheless, if one cannot celebrate the birth of Christ without a tree in their house then they have a problem; IMO, it is a problem with idolatry. You are attached to something that you cannot get rid of while at the same time you are saying you are worshiping Christ. It has become part of your worship. You associate it with your worship. It has become your idol in your subconscious.

With other people money is their idol, or, family, business, materialism, sports, etc. There are many idols. There are many gods. Idolatry takes many forms.

Who says we cannot get rid of our tree? I've never said that. I've said I WILL not get rid of my tree because it's not an idol but a tradition we have at our home. Just as much as the "I'm Special" plate at birthdays is a tradition around here. Yeah, I can get rid of it but why? Just because someone is judging me on how I celebrate days? That's just ridiculous.

 

[annsni]

A fiddler on the roof. Sounds crazy, no? But here, in our little village of Anatevka, you might say every one of us is a fiddler on the roof trying to scratch out a pleasant, simple tune without breaking his neck. It isn't easy. You may ask 'Why do we stay up there if it's so dangerous?' Well, we stay because Anatevka is our home. And how do we keep our balance? That I can tell you in one word: tradition!

Tevye in Fiddler on the Roof​

Tradition! Like turkey on Thanksgiving and fireworks on the 4th of July; hamburgers and hot dogs at a picnic and stink bait at a bullhead pond; cotton candy at the circus and the smell of diesel fuel at a truck stop; Abbot with Costello and Allen with Burns; O Canada to start a hockey game and God Bless America during the seventh inning stretch. I do not worship turkey nor fireworks, fast food nor stink bait, cotton candy nor diesel fuel, Abbot nor Allen, nor national songs. These things are part of the lexicon of my life... my traditions and more than likely the tradition of my forebears.

Could we have a Thanksgiving celebration without turkey? Absolutely, but it wouldn't be much fun. Could you start a hockey game without singing "O Canada"? No doubt, but it would not be very patriotic. Abbott without Costello? Doable but not very funny. Christmas without a Christmas Tree?

Am I emotionally attached to these things? You bet your bright yellow barn boots I am!! Emotional attachment and pagan worship are not the same thing - far from it. I am emotionally attached to my grandfather's pocket watch but I do not worship it. I am emotionally attached to my library but I do not worship it. I am emotionally attached to my old truck but I do not worship it. I am emotionally attached to many of my possessions but I do not worship them. I have made do with them and without them and I prefer to do with them. It is part of my tradition and my emotional attachments. That does not make me a pagan.

Our tree is simple. It is decorated with fond memories: a beaded bell that was on a wedding gifts, Baby's First Christmas from 1980, 1982 and 1984, a rusty old Santa that my paternal grandfather left for me before his death (I was 4 months old when he passed), ornaments from Germany and other places we have traveled and mementos of places we have travailed.

For us, the tree is our Ebenezer not an Asheroth.

I do not fear that it will supplant my faith nor make me speak in tongues...

O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum,
Wie treu sind deine Blätter!
Du grünst nicht nur zur Sommerzeit,
Nein auch im Winter, wenn es schneit.
O Tannenbaum, o Tannenbaum,
Wie treu sind deine Blätter!

Well, atleast you have stuck in my mind "Tradition!!" for the day! LOL Thanks!

But I say "right on" to all that you've said. There's a huge difference between tradition and idolatry and if someone can't see that, then I think that's their problem, not mine.

Now I must begin to get ready for our big tradition at our church - the staff Christmas party!! Woo-hoo!! Good food, good fellowship, gift swap, decorating the newest staff members by the kids, Pastor reading the kids a story as they sit on his lap and all around him then getting our bonuses! Yes, I'd definitely be sad to miss out on that!!

 

[Spinach]

I agree with Padredurand.

 

[padredurand]

Well, atleast you have stuck in my mind "Tradition!!" for the day! LOL Thanks!

But I say "right on" to all that you've said. There's a huge difference between tradition and idolatry and if someone can't see that, then I think that's their problem, not mine.

Now I must begin to get ready for our big tradition at our church - the staff Christmas party!! Woo-hoo!! Good food, good fellowship, gift swap, decorating the newest staff members by the kids, Pastor reading the kids a story as they sit on his lap and all around him then getting our bonuses! Yes, I'd definitely be sad to miss out on that!!

You get bonuses? :thumbs:

 

[annsni]

You get bonuses? :thumbs:

MAN, I hope so! That's one tradition I'd hate to see go.