ReformedBaptist
Well-Known Member
Did the OP ever reply to their post and comments? If not, it was just a drive by.
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Oh Pagan Tree
- Thread starter antiaging
- Start date
Annsni and Padredurand :thumbs: :applause:
Uh- yeah, the OP actually "drove by" two more times, for a total of three, and throwing 'missiles' from the same particular book, each time.ReformedBaptist said:
I merely ignored the first time, since it was only some random pages torn out and wadded together. :saint:
As the second missile arrived 'complete with dust jacket', I easily avoided that one as well, :laugh: and posted links to evidence that the particular book was probably not all that dependable, and I noted that I personally already had a copy in my library (and have had for about 30 years, and that I have read), that I was familiar with said book, that I had previously cited it uncritically before learning a bit better, and then I suggested one might be a bit wary about placing too much stock in a book, where any 'gaps' are filled in by speculation, and then uncritically presented as fact.
So the OP ignored my response, and drove by, yet once again, throwing a third copy!
Some folks just "never saw a 'conspiracy' they didn't like!" :tear:
Ed
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annsni said:Well, atleast you have stuck in my mind "Tradition!!" for the day! LOL Thanks!
But I say "right on" to all that you've said. There's a huge difference between tradition and idolatry and if someone can't see that, then I think that's their problem, not mine.
Now I must begin to get ready for our big tradition at our church - the staff Christmas party!! Woo-hoo!! Good food, good fellowship, gift swap, decorating the newest staff members by the kids, Pastor reading the kids a story as they sit on his lap and all around him then getting our bonuses! Yes, I'd definitely be sad to miss out on that!!
I just knew you were a closet liberal. Now we know. First a Christmas tree and then a Christmas party where you are swapping gifts. At church, no less. You probably wear pants and watch TV too.
DHK said:
==I can't answer that question for everyone, but I can answer for myself. I don't "have" to have a Christmas tree. Most years I want to have one. The years I don't want to, I don't. I think they are pretty to look at just like other decorations around the house.
DHK said:
==For the same reason you don't remove pictures of your family (etc) from your house. We enjoy having them around. Just because they are in the house does not mean they are idols or objects of worship.
DHK said:
==That (underlined portion) has to be one of the silliest things I have read in a long time. I don't know anyone who has given their hearts to a, often plastic, tree. Maybe your comment reflects the fact that this entire thread is silly and certainly should not have gone on for 17+ pages.
DHK said:
==Actually I can. My life is devoted to the Lord God and not a Christmas tree or anything, or anyone, else. Christmas trees are decoration.
DHK said:
==Actually I don't sing "O Christmas Tree" because I never liked that song. However one look at the lyrics shows something of a problem with your argument. The lyrics are no more idolatry than a love song is idolatry.
My favorite Christmas song, which I listen to year around, is "O, Holy Night".
DHK said:
==Actually you need to go back and read what I was saying a bit more carefully. I was simply turning your argument back on you. I don't see anything wrong with wedding rings. My point, which you clearly missed, was that just because something is not directly approved in Scripture does not mean it is wrong and just because pagans use something does not mean it is an object of pagan worship or that those who use it are following after the pagan world.
DHK said:
==Okay, if you think legalism is something other than adding rules/laws that are not found in Scripture then what is legalism? I would be interested in your definition.
DHK said:
==That is an amazing statement. However considering the fact that you clearly missed the whole point of my argument I don't think it is worth responding to.
I find it interesting that you failed to respond to a good number of my statements. You have yet to prove how the modern use of Christmas trees is connected to baal worship or Jeremiah 10. You have failed to show how/why you are connecting drunkeness with Christmas trees (beyond your personal experiences). You have failed to support your presuppositions with Scripture, you just keep repeating the same arguments based on the same presuppositions. Do you not realize that I, and many other Christians on this board, don't agree with your presuppositions?
You said:
The Israelites, even when they did not worship at them, were still commanded to cut them down. Why? They were heathen objects of worship. They were associated with paganism.
I asked for a text reference so that I could examine the context of your proof text. Yet you failed to provide that. Why? Will it, like Jeremiah 10, only prove to cause you more problems?
You failed to explain how your assertion that "the word grove/groves used in relation to Baal or idol worship. Trees in the Bible are often connected to idolatrous worship" relates to the modern use of Christmas trees.
So your replies are providing more questions than answers. I know your position, so you don't have to keep repeating it. What I am seeking to see is how you deal with the very serious problems with your position.
Hopefully your future replies will be more productive.
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annsni said:
==Very good point. I notice that people who buy real trees for Christmas, you know the ones they sell at lots and in front of Food Lion, throw them out a few days after Christmas. Seems a funny thing to do to an object of worship, does it not? What DHK does not seem to understand is that Christmas trees are part of the way Christians and non-Christians in our culture decorate for Christmas. Christmas trees are nothing more than seasonal decoration. They certainly are not idols or objects of worship.
annsni said:
==Great points! Reminds me of Romans 14:4-6,13-14 and other such verses. :thumbs:
Fair enough, but most people can't. They are too emotionally attached to. As some have admitted to already, it is a tradition that they are not willing to forsake. Christ condemned traditions, not all, but certain traditions.Martin said:
Mark 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
--The commandment of God in this case is worldliness. It is separation of the world, something that he stressed to the nation of Israel over and over again via their dress, diet, laws, sacrificial system, etc. They were a called out nation separated from all other nations. We also are called out, separated. We are to be separated from this world. We are to be in this world, but not of this world.
Pictures of my family and other secular things have nothing to do with religious festivals and with worship. I have explained this many times. It seems as if you still do not understand what Paul means when he says "Be not conformed to this world," i.e., worldliness.
Romans 12:1-2 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
--Paul beseeches us to present our bodies as living sacrifices to the Lord. That is, that God would have 100% of our lives for his service. In addition, verse two indicates that the first step to doing that is not to be conformed to this world.
One preacher said that the most common sin among our society today is covetousness. He may be right. We walk through the shopping malls wishing for things we cannot have, probably more at this time of year more than at any other. If that be true then Christ does does not have 100% of our hearts does he? It is not such a ridiculous statement as you think. Very few people have given God 100% of their heart, and I think they would be quite arrogant to say that they have. There are many things that most Christians are not willing to give up. Christmas trees is just a good example of one of those things.
Jesus said:
Matthew 8:20 And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
--It is apparent that Christ never had a Christmas tree.
Are you willing to follow the example of Christ, the example of the Apostles? (you meaning the majority of the posters on this board)
As you say, you can get rid of it; but judging by the responses of many others they cannot. They are too emotionally attached to the Christmas tree to get rid of it. When it becomes so attached to a religious observance that one cannot get rid of it, and at the same time is a part of a religious observance (the birth of Christ), then I would consider it an idol. I don't see how one could consider it anything else but an idol. It is not simply a decoration. If you (others) were simply content with decorations, why do decorations require the presence of a Christmas tree in imitation of the rest of the world? Do they also set up Santa Claus as well? How far does it go? This is the imitation of the world. This is what the Lord hates, and what he says: "for whosoever shall be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." What do you think James meant when he said that?
I am glad you don't like the song. However you at least admit that it is a love song. But Christians say that this is the season when they are expressing their love to Christ. Why then would they be expressing their love to a tree? Does that make any sense at all? Again, a form of idolatry. God demands all of our love. In fact our love to our family is to seem as hate in comparison to our love to God.
1. There is nothing wrong with a wedding ring because it is purely symbolic, and has nothing to do with paganism.
2. There is nothing wrong with a wedding ring because it is not connected with a worship ceremony (the birth of Christ), as a Christmas tree is.
Legalism has to do with salvation. The legalistic person, like the Judaizers in Acts 15, and in the Book of Galatians, tried to maintain that one needed to keep the Law and be circumcised in order to be saved. That is an example of legalism. It is adding works to "salvation by faith alone." One might say that the Church of Christ has become a legalistic religion for adding baptism as a requirement to be saved.
It has nothing to do with a church that has set standards of dress, abstinence of drink, abstinence of smoking, short hair on men, etc. If a church sets those standards (just examples), then perhaps they are intended to help one on a path of holiness and separation from the world. They have nothing to do with legalism at all.
This is the statement I made:
"By your standards Paul was a very worldly man because you don't understand the Biblical concept of worldliness."
The constant repetition of: driving cars, living in houses, wearing a wedding ring, etc,; these off the topic responses only show a lack of understanding of the topic being discussed. Actually I am tired of continuously answering the same thing over and over again. So why should you think it an "amazing statement"?
Let me point out to you again for the umpteenth time:
The Apostle Paul
--lived in his own hired house--he had a house.
--made his living by making tents--he had tents.
--Asked Timothy to bring him the "books"--he had books.
--used modern transportation--traveled by ship.
You have used things comparable to the above as "being worldly." You contradict yourself, implying that Paul must be a worldly person by continuing to assert that cars, rings, etc. are worldly, because Paul had the same type of things. Is it not obvious yet that Paul meant something different than just the possession of things??
I am not the one directly connecting it to those things, but only indirectly. In Jeremiah it simply says "Learn not the way of the heathen," and then it describes what the heathen did.
Put that in a modern context.
I have a RCC family living on one side of me and an Orthodox family living on the other side of me. They both put up Christmas trees, and other such decorations. They are both unsaved. They wonder why I don't put up a Christmas tree and decorate our house. I tell them: It is because we celebrate the birth of Christ. We gather together as a family, read the Bible, tell why Jesus came into the world, and was born of a virgin. To us this time of year focuses around Christ not trees and glitter. By not putting up a tree we have the opportunity to witness to others. Learn not the way of the heathen. Do not as the world does. Get away from a worldly lifestyle. Having a Christmas tree and all the other decorations like the rest of the world is simply living a worldly life like the rest of the world. God commands us to be different.
I know most don't agree with me. They don't because they are too emotionally attached to their traditions. Before I used the illustration personally, but it doesn't have to be personal, does it.
It is the time of year where people consume the most alcohol.
It is the time of year where people throw the most parties.
It is the time of year where people consume the most food.
It is the time of year where people spend the most money on material things.
And what does all of the above have to do with the the celebration of the birth of Christ? Absolutely nothing. But these same people put up Christmas trees and pretend to be very religious about the birth of Christ. And true believers vainly imitate them in their worldliness instead of coming out of the world and being different, separated, holy unto the Lord their God.
If you are going to celebrate the birth of Christ, at least don't copy the world when doing so.
In one of my posts I gave you the example of Gideon cutting down the grove of trees that enshrined the idol of Baal.
The modern use of a Christmas tree, no matter which way you look at it, is not Christian. If it is, please give some Scriptural proof. It has pagan origins, which I am sure you yourself are aware of, but more than that--and this is my main argument it is associated with the world, worldliness.
1 John 2:15-16 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
As you can see, my main argument is from Scripture, the Scripture that deals with: Be not conformed with this world. Antiaging line of attack was mostly the historical line. I agree with to some extent, though I think his history is a bit off. But that is not the focus of my argument.
May our lives be holy unto the Lord.
May we not live like the world.
As an aside: In past generations preachers like Wesley and Spurgeon would never allow such distractions in their churches. In fact they would not even allow musical instruments in their churches. Spurgeon said that an organ would take the focus of his congregation off of worshiping our glorious Saviour. He didn't want any distraction.
Wesley said: "I have nothing against musical instruments in my church as long as they are not seen or heard."
These men of God did not want anything to distract their congregations from hearing the Word of God, from concentrating their thoughts on the Lord. Perhaps we can apply those same thoughts to having Christmas trees and all that goes with it, in relation to celebrating the birth of Christ.
And what's wrong with a worship ceremony celebrating the Incarnation of our Blessed Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, the Word becoming Flesh for our sake and our salvation,the Light of the World stepping down into darkness? If there's a form of Christianity that has a problem with such worship, then it's a form I've never encountered before and would not wish to. Furthermore, at my wedding, the rings were used in conjunction with a worship ceremony: our wedding service; the rings were exchanged at the same time as Mrs B and I exchanged vows in the presence of God.DHK said:
And how, pray tell, do you know this?DHK said:
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
DHK said:
My wedding was indeed a Christ centred worship service where we celebrated the marvellous picture of Christ and the church. Our ring exchange of was a part of that time of worship.
I am pretty certain that wedding rings have pagan origins, but it is not worth my time to look into it.
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DHK said:
I am not willing to forsake that tradition because God did not tell me to. Only you have and that's not good enough for me.
Umm - can you show me where the commandment of God in this case is worldlines? Because I see no evidence of that in the passage. It was legalism - the fact that the Pharasees actually did the OPPOSITE of being worldly - they made more and more rules to look "different" from the world.
Ahh - I see, you're not willing to give up your worldly pictures. That's OK.
And I'd say it's pretty arrogant to speak on other people's hearts towards Christ.
A number of years ago, I gave up ownership on everything I own. If my home burned down, I'd be OK as long as my family was OK. If I had to get rid of everything and become a missionary, I would. It took some time for me to get to that point but I honestly think God did that to me to prepare me to become a pastor's wife. Nothing I own is mine from my house to my car to my Christmas tree. But I'm not going to give up any of it unless the Lord tells me to.
[quote[ As you say, you can get rid of it; but judging by the responses of many others they cannot. They are too emotionally attached to the Christmas tree to get rid of it. When it becomes so attached to a religious observance that one cannot get rid of it, and at the same time is a part of a religious observance (the birth of Christ), then I would consider it an idol. I don't see how one could consider it anything else but an idol. It is not simply a decoration. If you (others) were simply content with decorations, why do decorations require the presence of a Christmas tree in imitation of the rest of the world? Do they also set up Santa Claus as well? How far does it go? This is the imitation of the world. This is what the Lord hates, and what he says: "for whosoever shall be a friend of the world is the enemy of God." What do you think James meant when he said that?[/quote]
If you feel having a Christmas tree is worldly then that is your issue and you shouldn't have one. But do not judge others on how they celebrate a day because SCRIPTURE FORBIDS IT. I CAN get rid of my tree - in a heartbeat. But I'm not going to because someone told me to. When God tells me to, then I'll listen.
Oh yeah - and we all love our Christmas trees more than even our family. If my house were to catch on fire, I'd for sure be running to save my tree over my 5 year old daughter. :BangHead:
Umm - might want to look into that. Wedding rings are pagan.
No - Legalism is when you make rules stronger than what Scripture says. I know of churches that will not let you in the door if you're a woman in pants. It has nothing to do with salvation but rules. Period. And what we are speaking of here is a rule above Scripture.
This is the statement I made:
"By your standards Paul was a very worldly man because you don't understand the Biblical concept of worldliness."
The constant repetition of: driving cars, living in houses, wearing a wedding ring, etc,; these off the topic responses only show a lack of understanding of the topic being discussed. Actually I am tired of continuously answering the same thing over and over again. So why should you think it an "amazing statement"?
Let me point out to you again for the umpteenth time:
The Apostle Paul
--lived in his own hired house--he had a house.
--made his living by making tents--he had tents.
--Asked Timothy to bring him the "books"--he had books.
--used modern transportation--traveled by ship.
You have used things comparable to the above as "being worldly." You contradict yourself, implying that Paul must be a worldly person by continuing to assert that cars, rings, etc. are worldly, because Paul had the same type of things. Is it not obvious yet that Paul meant something different than just the possession of things??
OK - then TVs, cell phones, washing machines, refrigerators, computers, airplanes, grocery stores, etc. are all worldly. Get rid of them. God said so because you're not to be worldly.
Listen, when ANYTHING becomes more important than God, then we should get rid of it. Apparently for you, a Christmas tree is a stumbling stone and you should not have it. However, it is not for us. Tradition does not equal worldliness and until God tells me something, I will continue as I'm doing. I'm comfortable with my practices and I will not have one man who I don't even know tell me what I should do. Scripture tells me to be submissive to my husband and my leaders on this earth. You are neither so I'm all finished.
My goodness. In our family we celebrate the birth of Christ. We gather together as a family, read the Bible, tell why Jesus came into the world, and was born of a virgin. To us this time of year focuses around Christ not trees and glitter, too! Only we have a tree. You are right in one respect. We are commanded to be different but not pompous. What do I mean?
Why don't you just put a sign in front of your home that says:
"LOOK!
I am more pious
than my neighbors"
I am more pious
than my neighbors"
I'm reminded of what Jesus taught, ""Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee, and the other a tax-gatherer. "The Pharisee stood and was praying thus to himself, 'God, I thank Thee that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer. 'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
Luke 18:10-12 NASB"
Or a modern version, "Several people met at the BB to interact with each other. One stood and said, "God I thank Thee that I am not like these others: pagan, oak-grove-dancing, Christmas tree worshippers. I do not have a Christmas tree and make a point of telling everyone how unworldly I am."
Oy Vay!
annsni said:Oh - I'm coming!! I'll treat on the pastries (because you can't JUST have a cup of coffee.
I'm not much of a coffee drinker, but one small cup of Turkish coffee and I can move a whole house of furniture and stack it high in the family room. I'm speaking from experience (of course, we were moving, so that makes a difference. LOL!)
P.S. Don't eat the pizza here, unless you like ketchup and mayonaise piled high on your veggie (including corn) pizza.
annsni said:
This is a prime example of why I feel God has enabled and called some women to teach men...
YOU are spot on!
I would just like to repeat... this part of your post...
When we place men's interpretation of what the Bible over the Bible we fall.
I don't worship the tree...
But it does have meaning to me.. see my other thread.