Oh you foolish Baptists!

Could someone point me to the post that said headcoverings must be worn to complete one's salvation?

I have heard that accusation come up quite a bit, but I have yet to see it.

 

Although being filled with the Spirit will result in living in obedience, living in obedience is NOT the definition of being filled with the Spirit, I don't think.

But I think that sometimes our ideas of obedience will be changed by that same Holy Spirit. I remember Peter and the lesson he learned about clean and unclean animals for eating in his vision of the sheet from heaven. His ideas about obedience were radically changed by that.

And when the Apostles discussed the requirements to be laid on the Gentiles, they did not worry about the vast majority of the Jewish law, but only about those things related to paganism.

Our goal, or at least mine, as a born again Christian, is to know God's Word thoroughly and to also pay very close attention to the Holy Spirit who is guiding me and re-shaping me into what He wanted me to be in the first place. My obedience to the Law-giver supercedes my limited understanding of any physical laws. The physical is, as Paul indicated a number of times, only a shadow of the spiritual reality. Thus, while the spiritual is reflected in the physical, it is ever so much more.

Are you behaving nicely towards your neighbor? Good, but what is the condition of your love toward him or her?

Are you dressed modestly? Good. But what is the condition of your pride in your dress?

Are you obedient to authorities placed over you? Good. But what is the condition of your humility?

God judges the heart. Are we paying attention to ourselves or to Him?

So, Dan, also, I don't think that our freedom in Christ means that if the Bible doesn't say we CAN'T do it that we should then consider it fine if we do it. That is a sort of reverse legalism -- legalistic freedom, if you will. That, again, concentrates on oneself instead of on God. And our focus MUST be on Him, and upon attention to the Holy Spirit within us and obedience to Him. And this is why we MUST know His Word, for we are still easily deceived and if we have a thought that is against Scripture, we need to know immediately so that we will have the discernment to know when we are listening to the Holy Spirit and when we are simply trying to use our imaginations to imitate Him and thus 'get our own way.'

And Aaron, it is not a matter of headcoverings determining salvation, but of the judgment of others concerning them regarding the state of a person's heart towards God.

 

Well, there are many things noted in God's word when it comes to an outward change:

(Col 3:8 KJV) But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

(Col 3:9 KJV) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

(Col 3:10 KJV) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

(Eph 4:22 KJV) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

(Eph 4:23 KJV) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

(Eph 4:24 KJV) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

(Eph 4:25 KJV) Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

(Eph 4:29 KJV) Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

(Eph 4:31 KJV) Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

(Eph 4:32 KJV) And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

(Eph 5:3 KJV) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

(1 John 3:18 KJV) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

As I have stated before, even Jesus, when speaking with the Pharisees, declared that when a person has been made clean inside, then the outside, as Gina so noted, will be cleaned up. Albeit over time as one matures in Christ. (Matthew 23:25)

I'm still not clear on why folks have a such a difficult time understanding that there can be no inward change without outward changes following.

Julia

 

Wonderful Lorelei! Good Job!

Sherrie

 

[ December 11, 2002, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Jessie ]

 

Then Lorelei's original post is a misapplication. The Galatians passage has to do with adding the Law of Moses to salvation, not whether it is proper or not for women to be adorned in a certain manner.

Paul elsewhere appeals to the Law of Moses to say that it is right and proper for preachers to get paid by their congregations. Now, where is the cry of "Legalism!" over that? This is a perfect example from the Scriptures of where the Law of Moses, properly understood, can be used to judge right and proper church polity. He no where says that the salvation of the individual members of a congregation is contingent upon the salary of their pastor.

Would you be judging the state of the hearts of the individuals in that congregation toward God to present to them the admonition that churches should generously pay their pastors?

In the same way, these ladies, who are being grossly misrepresented, have in no way suggested that any of you are any less Christians or loved by God. They see the admonitions in 1 Cor. 11 as a straightforward statement about God's chosen badges of authority and submission.

They present their views and their experiences in wrestling with their self-will and pride about the issue. They haven't judged anyone's heart toward God.

Is Lorelei making a judgment about the hearts of these ladies toward God with her post? I'm sure she would be very offended at the suggestion. To characterize these ladies as "foolish Baptists" with a wrenching and twisting of Paul's words must cut them pretty deep. Yet, they don't respond as many of you have done to their perceived attacks, which pale in comparison to this thread.

And, indeed, they are perceived. They are not real. The more I read the more I am convinced that the problem does not lie in their presentation of their views.

 

What if there is no outward change indicating an inward working?

[ December 10, 2002, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Ernie Brazee ]

 

Assuming the person is not comatose, Ernie, the assumption would be in line with James that the person's faith is dead. I am, by the way, also assuming the person has been a Christian for more than a week or so!

 

Amen, Lorelei. Thanks for posting this!

 

People as far as the topic of liberty and legalism goes I do feel that there are extremes in both directions.
Example: (if you are married)Do you do things to please your spouse, such as the way you dress,talk, the people you associate with, not because you have to out of duty but because you love them and you know from conversation and experience what they are pleased with?
If you "acted" single you would still be married wouldn't you?
If you did not change in any way, because you did not have to, "to be married". Or you would change just enough "to get by" while still holding on to as much of the single life as possible, yes you would be married but what kind of marraige would you have?
I hear many people on this board writing on how they would not do this or that, they have liberty!!!

If your husband or wife used their liberty as much as we do as christians, would you want to be married to them?

I AM NOT trying to upset anyone, this hit home to me a few years ago in my own life and walk.

 

A big amen, hallelujah to that swordsman!! Thank you for sharing your experience with us.

I am often concerned with those who chant "we're not under the law! The only law is the law of liberty!"

To me personaly, Romans 6 and Romans 8 sum up my liberty in Christ:

(Rom 6:6 KJV) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

(Rom 6:7 KJV) For he that is dead is freed from sin.

(Rom 8:2 KJV) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

My liberty comes in that though I still sin, I am forgiven, I am delivered, I am free from the bondage of sin and I am free from the consequence of sin . . . eternal separation from Christ.

Praise the Lord!

Julia

 

Amen, Aaron! Very good post. It is so refreshing to have a man back us up. Thank you.

 

This will be my last post in this thread.

I understand that you are in some way trying to help these ladies see the "errors" of their ways. In doing so you say you are not judging their hearts.

I can accept that.

They are no more judging the heart of anyone else as they help others see the "errors" of their ways.

That's all I'm saying, and please notice I said what I did in response to someone else.

One more thing, before I go:

You are mistaken in your understanding of Paul's word's there, but that is a subject for another thread.

 

Sorry, one more post:

Ernie, smile brother!

 

The only way we can live in the spirit or be sprit filled is by living according to His word,it is that simple....Like Julia has said,we are to put off fleshly things and put on godly things...the more we grow as christians,the more we should *know* what God's word says,(this comes from being renenewed by the word,which does not happen accidentally) and then we live according to the truths there.

Spirt filled is not a mystical *I feel* a certain thing I should do,it is doing what we *know* to do from his word....there is no other Spirit filled life than that....God lives in us and teaches us how to be spirit filled through His word...that is the only way we know how to be.

I'm not sure I am following the law argument here...God's word is not up for debate,it is true and profitable for every thing...we just need to actually live by it! Now,that's being a powerful witness for Christ,really living godly...it is not for any of us to decide who is doing this,but we can defintely tell by attitudes and words of others who are godly in words and actions. We can not judge motives,although true godliness is a noticeable thing.

"Therefore,be careful how you walk,not as unwise men,but as wise,making the most of your time,because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish,but understand what the will of the Lord is." Eph 5: 15-17

Eph 5 would be great for all of us to read occassionally,it tells us what to put off and what to put on...it tells us to expose deeds of darkness,not to participate in them. It speaks to what kind of talk is evil and what kind is godly....It is pretty clear! Paul has some pretty direct teaching that we all need to heed!

 

Amen and Amen,Murphy. I agree with this,not because I am one supporting the concepts of dresses only or headcoverings,because I am not...(this topic may or not totally be about these things)...but,I do think it is more important how we treat one another whom we may agree or disagree with...it is all about godliness in our words and attitudes....I am so glad to hear that you think these women have been quiet and reserved,meek and gentle...I do agree and hope we can all learn from their humblness.

I have seen a definite contrast from these women and how they express their views and how others get their views across...the opposing ones sound so hateful at times. I just wish the love of Christ was more evident,even when we disagree with someone. That is my prayer.

[ December 10, 2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]