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Oh you foolish Baptists!
- Thread starter Lorelei
- Start date
Although being filled with the Spirit will result in living in obedience, living in obedience is NOT the definition of being filled with the Spirit, I don't think.
But I think that sometimes our ideas of obedience will be changed by that same Holy Spirit. I remember Peter and the lesson he learned about clean and unclean animals for eating in his vision of the sheet from heaven. His ideas about obedience were radically changed by that.
And when the Apostles discussed the requirements to be laid on the Gentiles, they did not worry about the vast majority of the Jewish law, but only about those things related to paganism.
Our goal, or at least mine, as a born again Christian, is to know God's Word thoroughly and to also pay very close attention to the Holy Spirit who is guiding me and re-shaping me into what He wanted me to be in the first place. My obedience to the Law-giver supercedes my limited understanding of any physical laws. The physical is, as Paul indicated a number of times, only a shadow of the spiritual reality. Thus, while the spiritual is reflected in the physical, it is ever so much more.
Are you behaving nicely towards your neighbor? Good, but what is the condition of your love toward him or her?
Are you dressed modestly? Good. But what is the condition of your pride in your dress?
Are you obedient to authorities placed over you? Good. But what is the condition of your humility?
God judges the heart. Are we paying attention to ourselves or to Him?
So, Dan, also, I don't think that our freedom in Christ means that if the Bible doesn't say we CAN'T do it that we should then consider it fine if we do it. That is a sort of reverse legalism -- legalistic freedom, if you will. That, again, concentrates on oneself instead of on God. And our focus MUST be on Him, and upon attention to the Holy Spirit within us and obedience to Him. And this is why we MUST know His Word, for we are still easily deceived and if we have a thought that is against Scripture, we need to know immediately so that we will have the discernment to know when we are listening to the Holy Spirit and when we are simply trying to use our imaginations to imitate Him and thus 'get our own way.'
And Aaron, it is not a matter of headcoverings determining salvation, but of the judgment of others concerning them regarding the state of a person's heart towards God.
There is no law that tells us to be Holy, the only Holiness we have comes from Christ. It is the Spirit living in us that allows us to be considered Holy in God's eyes. We are full of sin and it is impossible for us to be Holy on our own. If you obey the whole law, but offend it in even one point, you are guilty of it all. We are separate and peculiar because we have Christ living in us, not because of any thing we say or do.
It is indeed a great responsibility, and it can only be accomplished by Christ. Even Paul talked about the sin waging war in his body against the spirit.
Telling people that they must folow the law of Holiness puts them back under the burden of the law and encourages them to try and become Holy. Apart from the Spirit within us, we will never be Holy. We will never stop completely sinning until we reach Heaven.
I haven't seen one person posting here that believes that it does. The Freedom from the law comes only because Christ is in you. If you are allowing the Spirit to lead you, you won't want to go around doing things that displease God. The freedom comes in, because you realize that God looks upon the heart and not the outward appearance and actions. If I mess up I don't have to sit there and put a heavy guilt trip on myself and feel like God is pointing his finger at me telling me what a bad little Christian I am. I know that all my sins were already covered, I know that Christ is in me and has already forgiven for all the mistakes that I have made. I stop worrying about silly things like that. Things that Paul also dealt with, doing what he didn't want to do and not doing what he wanted to do. I then am free to keep moving forward in my walk, learning more and more each day about how to let the Spirit lead my life. I realize that the Spirit will lead me if I am in a pair of pants or I am in a skirt. I realize that he wants me to give cheerfully, not an obligated 10%. He loves me either way. He knows I won't be perfect here on this earth, all He wants is for me to let Him teach me, for me to let Him lead me. The responsibility of Holiness is Christ's, and thank the Lord for it! Otherwise we are all in big trouble!
What a person must understand is that they can only accomplish being Holy by letting Christ live in them.
We don't serve in the new way by following a set of rules, we serve in the new way of the Spirit.
By encouraging others to live by the Spirit we are encouraging them to do just what the Bible teaches. It is not our job to take a passage of scripture and determine what God meant when he said things like be Holy, or dress modestly, or give cheerfully. It is the Spirit's job to show us what that means. Those who add to that are returning to the old way of following a written code.
~Lorelei
KeeperOfMyHome
New Member
Well, there are many things noted in God's word when it comes to an outward change:
(Col 3:8 KJV) But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
(Col 3:9 KJV) Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
(Col 3:10 KJV) And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
(Eph 4:22 KJV) That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
(Eph 4:23 KJV) And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
(Eph 4:24 KJV) And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
(Eph 4:25 KJV) Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
(Eph 4:29 KJV) Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.
(Eph 4:31 KJV) Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:
(Eph 4:32 KJV) And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
(Eph 5:3 KJV) But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
(1 John 3:18 KJV) My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
As I have stated before, even Jesus, when speaking with the Pharisees, declared that when a person has been made clean inside, then the outside, as Gina so noted, will be cleaned up. Albeit over time as one matures in Christ. (Matthew 23:25)
I'm still not clear on why folks have a such a difficult time understanding that there can be no inward change without outward changes following.
Julia
Then Lorelei's original post is a misapplication. The Galatians passage has to do with adding the Law of Moses to salvation, not whether it is proper or not for women to be adorned in a certain manner.
Paul elsewhere appeals to the Law of Moses to say that it is right and proper for preachers to get paid by their congregations. Now, where is the cry of "Legalism!" over that? This is a perfect example from the Scriptures of where the Law of Moses, properly understood, can be used to judge right and proper church polity. He no where says that the salvation of the individual members of a congregation is contingent upon the salary of their pastor.
Would you be judging the state of the hearts of the individuals in that congregation toward God to present to them the admonition that churches should generously pay their pastors?
In the same way, these ladies, who are being grossly misrepresented, have in no way suggested that any of you are any less Christians or loved by God. They see the admonitions in 1 Cor. 11 as a straightforward statement about God's chosen badges of authority and submission.
They present their views and their experiences in wrestling with their self-will and pride about the issue. They haven't judged anyone's heart toward God.
Is Lorelei making a judgment about the hearts of these ladies toward God with her post? I'm sure she would be very offended at the suggestion. To characterize these ladies as "foolish Baptists" with a wrenching and twisting of Paul's words must cut them pretty deep. Yet, they don't respond as many of you have done to their perceived attacks, which pale in comparison to this thread.
And, indeed, they are perceived. They are not real. The more I read the more I am convinced that the problem does not lie in their presentation of their views.
Ernie Brazee
<img src ="/ernie.JPG">
What if there is no outward change indicating an inward working?
[ December 10, 2002, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Ernie Brazee ]
[ December 10, 2002, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: Ernie Brazee ]
People as far as the topic of liberty and legalism goes I do feel that there are extremes in both directions.
Example: (if you are married)Do you do things to please your spouse, such as the way you dress,talk, the people you associate with, not because you have to out of duty but because you love them and you know from conversation and experience what they are pleased with?
If you "acted" single you would still be married wouldn't you?
If you did not change in any way, because you did not have to, "to be married". Or you would change just enough "to get by" while still holding on to as much of the single life as possible, yes you would be married but what kind of marraige would you have?
I hear many people on this board writing on how they would not do this or that, they have liberty!!!
If your husband or wife used their liberty as much as we do as christians, would you want to be married to them?
I AM NOT trying to upset anyone, this hit home to me a few years ago in my own life and walk.
Example: (if you are married)Do you do things to please your spouse, such as the way you dress,talk, the people you associate with, not because you have to out of duty but because you love them and you know from conversation and experience what they are pleased with?
If you "acted" single you would still be married wouldn't you?
If you did not change in any way, because you did not have to, "to be married". Or you would change just enough "to get by" while still holding on to as much of the single life as possible, yes you would be married but what kind of marraige would you have?
I hear many people on this board writing on how they would not do this or that, they have liberty!!!
If your husband or wife used their liberty as much as we do as christians, would you want to be married to them?
I AM NOT trying to upset anyone, this hit home to me a few years ago in my own life and walk.
KeeperOfMyHome
New Member
A big amen, hallelujah to that swordsman!! Thank you for sharing your experience with us.
I am often concerned with those who chant "we're not under the law! The only law is the law of liberty!"
To me personaly, Romans 6 and Romans 8 sum up my liberty in Christ:
(Rom 6:6 KJV) Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
(Rom 6:7 KJV) For he that is dead is freed from sin.
(Rom 8:2 KJV) For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
My liberty comes in that though I still sin, I am forgiven, I am delivered, I am free from the bondage of sin and I am free from the consequence of sin . . . eternal separation from Christ.
Praise the Lord!
Julia
So are you saying that we are saved by grace apart from the law, but after salvation we are supposed to bound by one? WHat happens if you break this law? Lawlessness is sin, and sin has one penalty and that is death. Christ paid the penalty for all of my sin. He didn't pay for it up until the time I was saved and then threw another law upon me to follow.
Because you are demanding that people pay the legal requirement of 10%. Paul in his appeal showed them how it was indeed a good thing for a person who preached to get paid for doing so, however, Paul did not require them to do so. Look at what Paul told them?
Now IF we were required by law to do this, or IF we had to do this to stay in fellowship with God or IF this was necessary in order to be blessed, then Paul should have hoped that they would OBEY that LAW and pay him for his services, but he did not. It wasn't a law, however it was beneficial. Remember "all things are lawful, but not all things are beneficial."
It can be used as an example of what good Church polity is, but no where are we required to abide by it. No where in the NT are we told to tithe. No where are pastors encouraged to bind thier congregations to laws that we have now been freed from. The congregation is encouraged to give sacrificially, but always cheerfully and never out of necessity. God loves a cheerful giver, not one giving because the church requires him to do so.
If they are giving generously to their pastor then praise God! It is the state of their heart that should be what is motivating them to give in the first place. A heart filled with the Spirit, led by Christ and His Word will give where they feel led to give. If that is your church then wonderful. It isn't my responsibility to judge.
If they see it as astraightforward admonition then they are indeed implying that we are not doing something right. The verses that Keeper quoted above show how the changes that take place on the outside are changes in attitude. If the Spirit living in me makes me more loving, then I won't be bitter or malicious. If I let the Spirit lead me then I won't lie. I won't commit sexually imoral acts because the Spirit has led me to be more respectful of my body that is the temple of God. In no way does the physical act of wearing something on our head or legs do anything to affect the heart. You all have said that the outward change comes because of the inward change. What fruit causes you to cover your head? If all things are lawful, but not all beneficial, then women are not required to wear anything on thier head. If they want to, then great, but I find no benefit to it for me. It is lawful for me not to cover my head.
And I voiced my concern that these threads are encouraging people to try to live for God by doing things rather then teaching them to let God live in them.
I am not offended. This is a discussion board, I expect that others who disagree may misunderstand what I am trying to say. I also don't give myself undo credit and realize that I, imperfect as I am, can not explain things crystal clearly.
Am I making a judgement about their hearts? What you didn't read was my usage of the word We. I put myself into the same category as everyone else. I am just as guilty as everyone else at looking at the outside and not the inside. I am as guilty as anyone else at coming up with my own little list of what is acceptable and what is not. This is something that God is showing me in His Word. Each day as I study I see the freedom that He gives us and I praise Him for it. I realize that when I make a mistake He not only forgives me, He expected as such. We are not perfect nor will we ever be as long as we have breath on this earth. My desire is to be so, but my flesh desires not to.
I called us all foolish Baptists. Paul said clearly that you are foolish if you begin with the Spirit and then try to complete your walk with human effort. Those are not my words they are Paul's. I aimed them at all of us, to make us all think. To encourage everyone to examine what is thier motivation for the things they do. Is it truly something that is Spirit led, or are you as a person trying to fulfill that role?
If you think this thread was an attack on anyone here, then you are wrong. I had no particular person in mind, nor did I follow many of their threads about the head covering. I used that among other things as an example. To the best of my recollection I have not had a disputable discussion with any lady over these matters, nor have I accused any of them of being judgemental.
Let us not try to make this an arguementative thread. Let us discuss the issue, not certain individuals.
~Lorelei
This will be my last post in this thread. 
I understand that you are in some way trying to help these ladies see the "errors" of their ways. In doing so you say you are not judging their hearts.
I can accept that.
They are no more judging the heart of anyone else as they help others see the "errors" of their ways.
That's all I'm saying, and please notice I said what I did in response to someone else.
One more thing, before I go:
You are mistaken in your understanding of Paul's word's there, but that is a subject for another thread.
I understand that you are in some way trying to help these ladies see the "errors" of their ways. In doing so you say you are not judging their hearts.
I can accept that.
They are no more judging the heart of anyone else as they help others see the "errors" of their ways.
That's all I'm saying, and please notice I said what I did in response to someone else.
One more thing, before I go:
You are mistaken in your understanding of Paul's word's there, but that is a subject for another thread.
C.S. Murphy
New Member
The only way we can live in the spirit or be sprit filled is by living according to His word,it is that simple....Like Julia has said,we are to put off fleshly things and put on godly things...the more we grow as christians,the more we should *know* what God's word says,(this comes from being renenewed by the word,which does not happen accidentally) and then we live according to the truths there.
Spirt filled is not a mystical *I feel* a certain thing I should do,it is doing what we *know* to do from his word....there is no other Spirit filled life than that....God lives in us and teaches us how to be spirit filled through His word...that is the only way we know how to be.
I'm not sure I am following the law argument here...God's word is not up for debate,it is true and profitable for every thing...we just need to actually live by it! Now,that's being a powerful witness for Christ,really living godly...it is not for any of us to decide who is doing this,but we can defintely tell by attitudes and words of others who are godly in words and actions. We can not judge motives,although true godliness is a noticeable thing.
"Therefore,be careful how you walk,not as unwise men,but as wise,making the most of your time,because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish,but understand what the will of the Lord is." Eph 5: 15-17
Eph 5 would be great for all of us to read occassionally,it tells us what to put off and what to put on...it tells us to expose deeds of darkness,not to participate in them. It speaks to what kind of talk is evil and what kind is godly....It is pretty clear! Paul has some pretty direct teaching that we all need to heed!
Spirt filled is not a mystical *I feel* a certain thing I should do,it is doing what we *know* to do from his word....there is no other Spirit filled life than that....God lives in us and teaches us how to be spirit filled through His word...that is the only way we know how to be.
I'm not sure I am following the law argument here...God's word is not up for debate,it is true and profitable for every thing...we just need to actually live by it! Now,that's being a powerful witness for Christ,really living godly...it is not for any of us to decide who is doing this,but we can defintely tell by attitudes and words of others who are godly in words and actions. We can not judge motives,although true godliness is a noticeable thing.
"Therefore,be careful how you walk,not as unwise men,but as wise,making the most of your time,because the days are evil. So then do not be foolish,but understand what the will of the Lord is." Eph 5: 15-17
Eph 5 would be great for all of us to read occassionally,it tells us what to put off and what to put on...it tells us to expose deeds of darkness,not to participate in them. It speaks to what kind of talk is evil and what kind is godly....It is pretty clear! Paul has some pretty direct teaching that we all need to heed!
C.S. Murphy
New Member
Amen and Amen,Murphy. I agree with this,not because I am one supporting the concepts of dresses only or headcoverings,because I am not...(this topic may or not totally be about these things)...but,I do think it is more important how we treat one another whom we may agree or disagree with...it is all about godliness in our words and attitudes....I am so glad to hear that you think these women have been quiet and reserved,meek and gentle...I do agree and hope we can all learn from their humblness.
I have seen a definite contrast from these women and how they express their views and how others get their views across...the opposing ones sound so hateful at times. I just wish the love of Christ was more evident,even when we disagree with someone. That is my prayer.
[ December 10, 2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]
I have seen a definite contrast from these women and how they express their views and how others get their views across...the opposing ones sound so hateful at times. I just wish the love of Christ was more evident,even when we disagree with someone. That is my prayer.
[ December 10, 2002, 11:34 PM: Message edited by: Molly ]