Oh you foolish Baptists!

[LadyEagle]

Let's all learn to love one another while we try and express the convictions God has blessed us with.
Murph

As usual, I agree 100% with you Murph!

We forget sometimes that each of us have a personal walk with our Lord Jesus Christ. Some of us have walked with Him longer than others. Each of us has our struggles in different areas of our lives. Some may be convicted about attire or hair, while others may be convicted about parenting, or smoking, or overeating, or not being kind, or patient, or doubting, or lust. The Holy Spirit deals with each one of us where we are in our walk with the Lord, individually, one step at a time. Praise God we don't have a cookie cutter relationship with Jesus, but a Living, Breathing, Growing walk with Him! And Praise God for His Mercy and Grace! Not a one of us could ever hope to achieve perfection by our works which are "as filthy rags." And "it is not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us."

I am reminded there are seven things the Lord hates and calls abomination. The last one is: "he that soweth discord among the brethren."

We ALL, each and every one of us on this Board, have our faults. We are not perfect, nor shall we be perfect until we see Jesus Who is the Author and Finisher of our Faith!

We love you, Murph!

 

[Lorelei]

Murph,

You have accused me of attacking people when I have simply challenged their statements and beliefs. Is that not the purpose of this board?

I will discuss this thread and this topic but I will not get into a shouting match with anyone. If you want to make it personal I will refrain from addressing your responses.

Molly,

You have said that the people in opposition to those women sound so hateful? Are you referring to me in that statement?

I am not saying there is some mystical thing about walking in the Spirit. Walking in the Spirit is letting the Spirit help you apply what the Word of God says to your life. I just think there is a big difference between letting the Spirit apply the truth to your life and simply trying to follow the word on your own. Many people think that by following this and following that they are walking in the Spirit. There are many people who do this and do not know the Lord. Look at the Mormons. They live a more godly life then many Christians. Does that mean they are Spirit led? Absolutely not.

Keeper,

Your concern though valid isn't necessary. If our freedom comes from living IN Christ then we will be led to follow the Word by Him, not outside guidance. My admonition is to walk in the Spirit, that would never lead anyone down a sinful path, it just might not make them look as everyone expects them too.

SheEagle,

You brought up an excellent point about us all being convicted about different things and being in different places in our walk with God. That is one of my biggest problems with some of these issues. Someone finally comes to a conviction after so many years of walking with the Lord then they suddenly expect all persons to be following that just as they do.

The fact that we are free is Biblical.

1 Cor 10:29-30
For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience?
NIV

2 Cor 3:17
17 Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.
NIV

Gal 2:3-6
4[This matter arose] because some false brothers had infiltrated our ranks to spy on the freedom we have in Christ Jesus and to make us slaves. 5 We did not give in to them for a moment, so that the truth of the gospel might remain with you.

6 As for those who seemed to be important-whatever they were makes no difference to me; God does not judge by external appearance-those men added nothing to my message.
NIV

Gal 5:1
5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.
NIV

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:

Originally posted by Lorelei:
As Paul said, should we then make void the law through faith? God Forbid! But we uphold the law by letting the Spirit lead us.

Lorelei as I compare your quote above with the one from page 1 what am I to understand about your view of the law?

Originally posted by Lorelei:
We are no longer under the law period. If you beleive we are no longer under the law you can't say well, except for this law or that one. You either believe we are free from it all or you live by each and every one.

Just wondering

Murph

We are free from the judgement of the law. We will uphold the law because it is beneficial, not required. The law is summed up in this single command, "Love your neighbor as yourself".

~Lorelei

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Lorelei:

There is no law that tells us to be Holy, the only Holiness we have comes from Christ. It is the Spirit living in us that allows us to be considered Holy in God's eyes. We are full of sin and it is impossible for us to be Holy on our own. If you obey the whole law, but offend it in even one point, you are guilty of it all. We are separate and peculiar because we have Christ living in us, not because of any thing we say or do.

My friend I dissagree look at what Peter said about this :
14 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1 Peter 1:14-16 (KJV)

I have not heard anyone here say that we live holy lives in order to go to Heaven but rather we should live holy lives because we are going to Heaven and because others who have not made the decision may be looking at us. I think scripture proves that we should be holy. Are we going to be perfect no! but in every way possible we should practice holiness.
Murph

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
I have not heard anyone here say that we live holy lives in order to go to Heaven but rather we should live holy lives because we are going to Heaven and because others who have not made the decision may be looking at us. I think scripture proves that we should be holy. Are we going to be perfect no! but in every way possible we should practice holiness.
Murph

The only Holiness we possess comes from Christ living in us, not in what we do. You are right, no one is saying that is how you get to heaven, but they are saying how they define "Holiness". They aren't defining it by the Spirit but by the actions of men. They themselves may realize that this knowledge came to them by the Spirit, but others are believing that they have to be Holy on thier own. They define walking in the Spirit as practicing holiness. They practice holiness all day long, but they don't succeed and they never will. My problem is where the focus is. Too many people are focusing on bieng Holy rather than the One who IS Holy. Some have said that to do what the Bible says IS walking in the Spirit. That is not so! If we follow because he leads us, then YES it is! But if we follow, because we are "supposed" to then we have it all wrong. It's all about the focus.

That is why Paul was so adamant about things being lawful but not beneficial. When someone starts focusing on the act itself and preaching how that act is pleasing to God, others are stumbling because they start imitating the act rather then yielding to the Spirit. They start believing that their acts are pleasing to God. The ONLY thing we can do that pleases God is yield to Him and let HIM work in and through us. IF we do that, then the acts will follow, by His leading, not our own worthless efforts.

From experience, I know that this misconception is a stumbling block to others. We get so caught up avoiding the things we might do that could cause someone else to stumble, that we cause others to stumble in another way by focusing on the wrong object. When we spend so much time focusing on actions, others see that as what being a Christian is all about, what you are doing.

That is why I posted this, and that is my concern.

~Lorelei

 

[Helen]

Thank you Lorelei. I do think that is an excellent explanation of what you are trying to get at. I don't see how anyone could miss the point. And I also agree with you. John MacArthur has an explanation of what you are saying, I think, when he talks about Jesus being the hand and the believer being the glove. It is as He directs us that we move.

The glove should not be taking credit nor accepting credit for the actions done! If Christ, through His Holy Spirit, is in you, you are not your own anyway, but your life, like Paul's is hid with Christ in God.

 

[Gina B]

Yes, thanks Lorelei.

Maybe I missed it already in the thread, but you mentioned Paul talking of things being lawful but not beneficial. Where is that? It's very true, and I think that a lot of times when Christians realize the freedom they have they can really take advantage of it and use "it's not unlawful" as an excuse for their excesses.
Gina

 

[Lorelei]

Thanks ladies, I appreciate the kind words.

Gina here are the verses I was referring to, I seem to mix the terminology of the KJV with the NIV, but here are both. Of course they both say the same thing.

Believe me, I know that people can also try to take advantage of our freedom in Christ too. And the same reasoning goes to that extreme. If you are using the freedom to excuse the sin, the focus is on the sin and not on Christ. We don't want to spend all day excusing sin, we want to spend it abiding in Christ and letting Him lead us where He will.

1 Cor 6:12

12 "Everything is permissible for me"-but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"-but I will not be mastered by anything.
NIV

1 Cor 6:12

12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
KJV

1 Cor 10:23-24

23 "Everything is permissible"-but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"-but not everything is constructive.
NIV

1 Cor 10:23

23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
KJV

~Lorelei

 

[Aaron]

Well, I know I said I had posted my last post, but, this just got too good.

Lorelei,

Did you notice that the NIV put the phrases "everything is permissible for me," in quotes? The reason? Because Paul was not endorsing this idea at all. Nowhere does Paul endorse this sentiment. This was the cavil of wanton souls, not sanctified souls, and Paul was countering it.

"All things are lawful," is the creed of those whose god is their belly. Notice also verse 13 where Paul continues to quote them:

"Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats": but God shall destroy both it and them.

These who said such things were not really interested in holiness or what was right or wrong, but were interested only in justifying their indulgences of the flesh.

The transition to sexual immorality in the same verse is therefore a natural and expected transition.

 

[awesomedawn]

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the law." (Romans 3:28)
The apostle, of course, does not mean that Christianity does not produce good works, or that they who are justified will not obey the law, and be holy; but that no righteousness of their own will be the ground of their justification. They are sinners; and as such can have no claim to be treated as righteous. God has devised a plan by which they may be pardoned and saved; and that is by faith alone. It may be remarked here, however, that this doctrine by no means interfers with the doctrine that good works are to be performed by Christians. Paul urges this as much as any other writer in the New Testament. (A.Barnes)

 

[awesomedawn]

As far as works are concerned, I believe that our Savior said it best in (Matther 5:16) "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."
It isn't suppose to be about us, but our Father and Him being glorified. And thanks for the post Lorelei. It made me do some research tonight.

 

[2peter1_10]

I know that I am jumping in late but here it goes...

We are commanded to be holy 1 Peter 1:15-16 (KJV)
We are commanded to be perfect Matthew 5:48 (KJV)
We will never be without sin on earth 1 John 1:5-10 (KJV)

Romans 6:15-23
15What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. 16Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness? 17But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. 18Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness. 19I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness. 20For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. 21What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. 22But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. 23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

An individual can live be saved and live a life that is not truly representative of the salvation in him (Lot). But someone that has no semblance of any change in his or her life and never shows any is not saved. We know the tree by the type of fruit Matthew 7:17-18 (KJV). They are not evil trees because they do not bring abundant fruit, But because their fruit shows that they are evil.

You are not good because you do good. You do good because you are good. (Note: you can only become good through Christ, which begins with salvation)

Also note what happens to the corrupt tree in Matthew 3:10.

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
Murph[/qb]

The only Holiness we possess comes from Christ living in us, not in what we do. You are right, no one is saying that is how you get to heaven, but they are saying how they define "Holiness". They aren't defining it by the Spirit but by the actions of men. They themselves may realize that this knowledge came to them by the Spirit, but others are believing that they have to be Holy on thier own. They define walking in the Spirit as practicing holiness. They practice holiness all day long, but they don't succeed and they never will. My problem is where the focus is.

My problem is that I feel you have judged the heart of others, you have no way to know how they define holiness. I am still curious as to where your focus is, maybe I have missed it but until further enlightened I will maintain that your original post in this thread was an attack on some who have different convictions from you that are totally Biblical. I can't change your mind nor do I propose to try but I honestly feel this to be your intent and I don't feel it is warranted. If I am in error as to your intent please forgive me.
Murph

 

[tyndale1946]

Hebrews 12:[1] Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

[2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God... As long as I keep my eyes on Jesus and follow him I will not turn out to be a foolish Baptist!... Brother Glen Of The Primitive Baptist Brethren

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Aaron:
Well, I know I said I had posted my last post, but, this just got too good.

Could expand on what you meant by this comment?

Originally posted by Aaron:
These who said such things were not really interested in holiness or what was right or wrong, but were interested only in justifying their indulgences of the flesh.

Which is why Paul told them that not all things are beneficial. If the phrase in quotations were completely wrong, Paul would have corrected and said, "No, all things are not permissible", but he did not.

Other scriptures that support this view are:

1 Peter 2:16
16 Live as free men, but do not use your freedom as a cover-up for evil; live as servants of God.
NIV

Gal 5:13-14

13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
NIV

These verses do remind us not to use our freedom as an excuse, but they also confirm that in Christ we are free indeed.

~Lorelei

 

[Gina B]

Aaron, what are you talking about?
Gina

 

[Lorelei]

Murph,

I was under the impression that this Message Board was open for all Baptists to discuss their points of view. Could you please define what is and is not an attack for me? It seems to me your definition is based upon your partiality and personal beliefs rather than the facts.

1. I have mentioned no names in particular, I have simply stated some views that have been expressed.

2. I have given scriptural reasons for my views and the title of this thread is based upon a passage of scripture.

3. I have not taken offense to anyone who has disagreed with me and I have tried to speak to them in a manner which is respectful.

4. I always speak to the issue, not the person.

5. I have never suggested that any one person was dishonest in their posts. I not only have no right to do so, I have no way of knowing.

6. I always try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt.

7. There were numerous threads on the issue that you are accusing me of attacking, and yet you will only find one post by me in ONE of those threads. I did not interrupt their discussion to belittle them

8. I have already asked for this thread to stay on topic and not get personal.

I firmly believe what I just wrote is true. I feel that you are attacking me as a person and I take great offense to that since you are a moderator and representative of this board.

1. You have personally accused me of attacking people.

2. You have called my defense a "cop-out"

3. Even after I explain myself, you still propose to know my intent, implying that I am at the very least being decieptful or even a liar.

4. You have ignored my request to keep this from being personal.

Which of these two would be closer in defining the word attack?

~Lorelei

 

[Gina B]

Just as a note, Lorelei also mentioned tithing in her initial post. Why isn't she accused of attacking all those on tithing threads?
A point was being made, and as is usual a few instances familiar to the people being spoken to were mentioned. That isn't attacking anyone, that's a logical way to get people to understand what you're saying.
So, can we get rid of the whining and have someone say exactly what was wrong with the initial post apart from being offended at the title or reading into it of personal attacks?
And why get offended at it saying "baptists" anyway? Was Paul attacking the group he was speaking to when he called them by name? It's common to read the bible and apply it personally to one self or to a group today. That's what it's for. And we don't call ourselves the same thing as the groups in the bible were called.
Gina

 

[C.S. Murphy]

Originally posted by C.S. Murphy:
My problem is that I feel you have judged the heart of others, you have no way to know how they define holiness. I am still curious as to where your focus is, maybe I have missed it but until further enlightened I will maintain that your original post in this thread was an attack on some who have different convictions from you that are totally Biblical. I can't change your mind nor do I propose to try but I honestly feel this to be your intent and I don't feel it is warranted. If I am in error as to your intent please forgive me.
Murph[/QB]

In the statement above I simply stated my concerns with what I felt was an agressive post by Lorelei I also said that these views were my feelings and that if i had misinterpreted her posting that I desired forgiveness. To this I have been accused of calling her a liar which I have not. As to those who don't agree with my assesment that I was attacked in the opening post I will enter my last word on the subject.Here is her post:

Church members who say that the church is not bound under the law of the tithe are told to stop that line of reasoning and are therefore not considered to be "fundamental" in belief. Paul says:

Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit, are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?

We are no longer under the law period. If you beleive we are no longer under the law you can't say well, except for this law or that one. You either believe we are free from it all or you live by each and every one.

As Paul said in the above scriptures, it is foolish to accept salvation by grace but still try to obtain our goal by human effort.

We need to stop trying to live for God and let God live IN us.


Notice that those who believe we should tithe were attacked and that myself as the person who made the statement "stop that line of reasoning" I feel I was attacked. I was also taken out of context for this statement as it was not saying that we are bound to the law therefore I have been accused of being a legalist or pharisee. I have simply asked for the uglyness to stop.
Murph

 

[Jim1999]

Sometimes we design a house with the living room in the front when it has its best view at the back. Why do we do this? One reason; we are presenting the house to public view, and a nice picture window displays best to the public.

This is the way I see the different understandings of the same scripture by different people. It is the way we are viewing it from our perspective. I rather enjoy hearing the different perspectives. We all have the same goal, but we are coming from different angles.

Do we always do justice to the text? Not strictly, but no one has violated what could be meant. We ought to allow for such differences, and rather see where we can apply these things to our own lives, and hence put forth a better picture of our temple, our life in Christ.

When all is said and done, is it not the Lord we seek to elevate? Do we not all seek a holy life, honouring to this same God?

Cheers to all,

Jim