Oh you foolish Baptists!

[Lorelei]

Murph,

If someone uses the verses about "living Holy" to explain thier reasonings for practicing the examples listed in this post, then I can deduct that they are saying that to do such things is "practicing Holiness".

The word "tithe" is not used by the NT church and to use it indicates that you are using a system that was of the law.

Someone else in that same thread seemed to question whether or not you meant we were required to give 10% or give cheerfully. If I misunderstood, I was not the only one that was unclear.

The posting rules indicate that "it would be unrealistic not to expect at times to be misunderstood or even ridiculed."

I am not the only one that misunderstood you.

I couldn't post in the thread in question, because, although I feel that I am a fundamental, I won't be subject to another's definition of what that meant.

The statement in question did indicate you considered the line of reasoning unbiblical. The scriptures you used in your defense were not speaking of tithing. By saying "give and it shall be given unto you" means you will reap a tangible blessing from tithing is a dangerous thing. We have enough people out there motivating people for the wrong reasons already. Hence, we have the point of this thread.

You questioned my motives and I answered them. You called them a "cop-out". I answered again and you said you still didn't believe what my intent was. What was I supposed to think you were implying when you refused to believe what I had said?

By insinuating what you did and then saying, "But if I am wrong forgive me" is not Biblical. Where does the Bible say you may accuse your brother falsely if you ask for forgiveness if you are wrong in doing so?

Again, this post is not an attack on any person. It is challenging what some people have said. I am using the Bible to back up what I believe.

Is that clear enough? Can we now get back to the topic?

~Lorelei

 

[Lorelei]

Speaking of the tithe, I wanted to share this.

Not too long ago I would have said we were still supposed to tithe. It wasn't until after some healthy discussion at this very board that I changed my belief.

All the churches I had attended preached that we should tithe. Until people on this board challenged this beleif, I didn't think about it much.

I never really thought about the silence of the tithe in the NT, until it was mentioned. I studied further and found this to be true. Our only commands on financial giving are to do it cheerfully and not out of necessity. We have examples of sacrificial giving, not a required amount of giving.

I also never really thought about what the purpose of the tithe was for in the OT. I had read the laws and knew it, but I didn't put much thought to it. I had no reason to. People on this board were kind enough to point these things out, which again, made me study this further.

Thanks to all who shared these beliefs and challenged my own. This caused me to examine the Word more thoroughly, and that is always a good thing.

I just wanted to share how a healthy discussion can be beneficial.

~Lorelei

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aaron:
Well, I know I said I had posted my last post, but, this just got too good.

Could expand on what you meant by this comment?</font>[/QUOTE]Nope.

Originally posted by Lorelei: </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Aaron:
These who said such things were not really interested in holiness or what was right or wrong, but were interested only in justifying their indulgences of the flesh.

Which is why Paul told them that not all things are beneficial. If the phrase in quotations were completely wrong, Paul would have corrected and said, "No, all things are not permissible", but he did not.</font>[/QUOTE]You're making a completely arbitrary assumption of why Paul said what He said. To me it is obvious that Paul was simply using their own fleshly thinking to reason with them in the spirit of 2 Tim. 2:25.

To say "all things are lawful," is not a proper understanding of Christian liberty. Neither is it a proper understanding of food to say "Meats for the belly and the belly for meats."

These things are the carnal responses to spiritual doctrines. Being carnal (1 Cor. 3:3) they took the doctrines of Christian liberty to indecent proportions, and Paul is reigning them in.

All things are not lawful. It is not lawful to indulge fleshly apetites whether it be an inordinate affection for food or inordinate affection for another person.

The body is not for fornication...

And neither is it lawful for a Christian to flaunt his liberty at the expense of another's conscience. Christian liberty is not the liberty to do whatever one wants, but the power to do what one ought to do, as the the Scriptures you posted testify (1 Peter 2:16, Gal. 5:13-14).

You, however, are quoting the mottos of licentiousness as Christian tenets. This Paul did not do.

 

[Lorelei]

Aaron,

You say that some things are not lawful, so are you saying we are under the law?

What happens to a Christian who breaks the law?

~Lorelei

 

[Aaron]

Are you saying that adultery is lawful?

 

[Lorelei]

I am asking you what you think will happen if a Christian breaks the law that you seem to be implying that we are under.

James 2:10-11
10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.
NIV

Are we or are we not under the law? If so, what happens to us when we break it?

~Lorelei

 

[Aaron]

Your question has to do with justification, not sanctification.

A Christian is justified by grace alone through faith alone.

A Christain is sanctified by laying aside sin and walking in the Spirit.

How do we know sin to lay it aside?

The Law. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.

But this is beside the point of what Paul was saying when he quoted the catch-phrases of unsanctified, carnally-minded Christians.

[Edited to correct spelling.]

[ December 14, 2002, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: Aaron ]

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Aaron:
A Christain is sanctified by laying aside sin and walking in the Spirit.

A Christian is sanctified by the Spirit and by walking in the Spirit they will lay aside sin. The laying aside of sin can never come apart from Spirit.

Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
KJV

Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
KJV

Rom 15:16
That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
KJV

1 Cor 6:11

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
KJV

Originally posted by Aaron:

How do we know sin to lay it aside?

The Law. For by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Yes, but as the first part of that verse says, "therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law."

Rom 6:14

14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
KJV

We are not bound by the law any longer, our obedience to the law comes only from walking the Spirit.

Gal 5:16

16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulful the lust of the flesh.
KJV

~Lorelei

 

[Molly]

How does a young man keep his way pure,by walking in accordance to the Word.

This is living by the Sprit,and yes,we will be able to see a believer by how he lives,but how he lives does not save,it is the result of salvation.

Keeping the law does not save,only God,through His sovereignty,grace,and love,can we be saved....but,like Aaron says,we know what sin is through the law. All of God's word shows us how *not* to sin. I want to live a restrictive life,in a sense,because God's word is what I desire to follow....but,the law does not save.

[ December 14, 2002, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: Molly ]

 

[Lorelei]

Originally posted by Molly:
How does a young man keep his way pure,by walking in accordance to the Word.

This is living by the Sprit,

If this is living by the Spirit then why did Christ have to come and die in order to send it to us? This psalm was written while they were still under the law.

Apart from the Spirit we can not live in accordance with His Word. To say that obeying the Word IS walking in the Spirit is like saying that WE are able to keep the law.

Originally posted by Molly:

but,like Aaron says,we know what sin is through the law. All of God's word shows us how *not* to sin. I want to live a restrictive life,in a sense,because God's word is what I desire to follow....but,the law does not save.

The law was not only there to show us what sin is, but to also show us that we can not uphold the law on our own. It reveals not only sin, but our inability to conquer sin. If we say that we do not sin we are a liar and the truth is not in us.

I don't want to live a restrictive life when Christ offers me freedom. I want to live a life led by His Spirit that will lead me to do things by His power, not my own.

Again, YOU may understand that it is the Spirit that is giving you the power to obey His Word, but that isn't what you are saying. Many people are being led astray unto the burden of the law again because they hear these statements and think that all they have to do to walk in the Spirit is obey the law. They try and try all day on thier own and they fail. When they come to the church for assurance and help all they get is reprimanded for not obeying this law or that. No one tells them that they need to stop trying and just let God do it for them.

Jesus said that he is the vine and we are the branches. The only thing a branch does is stay in the vine. The vine produces the fruit, the branch does nothing but remain there. All we must ever do is remain in Christ and HE will produce the fruit. WE can do nothing apart from that, NOTHING.

For the last time, I am not saying a Christian will not show fruit. I am simply saying that Christ must produce the fruit or else it is no longer a fruit, but a worthless work.

~Lorelei

 

[Molly]

Paul also says we are no longer slaves to sin,we do not have to sin,but we choose to,living in the flesh,that is a choice we make everytime we disobey.

I think your argument does not make sense....I desire to live by God's word and I want it to permeate my life,so that I do not sin. Of course we will and can sin,but the closer we are to obeying His word the more Christ like we are becoming....the restrictions are a blessing and a wonderful evidence of how God does do the work in us,we can not do it without the Spirit of God,of course. But,the only way to know how to be spirit filled is through His word.

So,what if that verse is in Psalms....I love all of God's word and see all of it as truth.

 

[JonHenry]

I've enjoyed this thread.

I encourage you to read Colossians for yet another viewpoint of this issue.

At the end of Col. 2, Paul says that Christ threw down the world and has conquered all its forces. Why then are we bound to rules as "handle not, taste not, touch not"? These rules seem to be wise, but upon inspection they are revealed to be mere will-worship & asceticism, and have no effect on controling our flesh. In effect, they have no eternal value.

The answer lies in the first part of Col. 3, where we are risen with Christ, and are to seek those things which are above. Only after this powerful realization of what Christ did (chapters 1&2) becomes our viewpoint can we really mortify our members (chapter 3).

There is no rule which can make you holy, & there is no holiness without complete dependence upon Christ! Anything less is a denial of Christ's victory.

Jon

 

[Aaron]

Originally posted by Lorelei:
A Christian is sanctified by the Spirit and by walking in the Spirit they will lay aside sin.

...

We are not bound by the law any longer, our obedience to the law comes only from walking the Spirit.

Yes, indeed. And now we can see that you plainly see the law as something that is right, just, good and perfect, and something that is to be obeyed.

It is reassuring to see that you don't really believe that all things are lawful.