Hope of Glory
New Member
Perishing has to do with losing one's life.
Do you (SFIC) think that spiritual salvation can be lost or forfeited?
Do you (SFIC) think that spiritual salvation can be lost or forfeited?
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Oil and Virgins
- Thread starter Hope of Glory
- Start date
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Perishing has to do with spiritual life. Ref. John 3:16
One can believe all they want... It still does not mean they are saved.
That's about the most unBiblical statement I've heard in quite a while. So how do you explain Acts 16:30-31 where we are told to believe and we will be saved. It says believe. Why can't you trust God's Word instead of change it?
The devils also believe, but they can never be saved
The devils believe in the existence, not that Christ died for them, because He didn't. You are comparing apples and oranges again.
Perishing has to do with spiritual life. Ref. John 3:16
Unsaved people are spiritually dead. How does a dead man die? He doesn't. He's already dead.
You hit the nail on the head if you would just believe what you type. It has to do with spiritual life. The person addressed in John 3:16 was spirtually alive. And if he doesn't continue to believe (that's the present tense verb which calls for continual action) then he will perish. He won't lose his spiritual salvation, because that is irreversable, but he will lose his soul (life).
You can lose your life (soul) in this age and save it in the next age, or you and save your life (soul) now and lose it in the age to come.
It's amazing how the Bible just flows together giving us one big picture that doesn't contradict, but just meshes right together.
Hope of Glory
New Member
Also, in John 3:16, "perishing" is an aorist, middle, subjunctive. That means the person who is "believing" (present, active, participle) in that verse is causing the perishing upon himself.
Do we cause our own everlasting salvation?
Do you (SFIC) think that spiritual salvation can be lost or forfeited?
Do we cause our own everlasting salvation?
Do you (SFIC) think that spiritual salvation can be lost or forfeited?
StraightAndNarrow
Active Member
Hope of Glory said:Also, in John 3:16, "perishing" is an aorist, middle, subjunctive. That means the person who is "believing" (present, active, participle) in that verse is causing the perishing upon himself.
Do we cause our own everlasting salvation?
Do you (SFIC) think that spiritual salvation can be lost or forfeited?
We don't cause our salvation. Only Christ can do that. However, we can forfeir it by not believing (present, active participle) on Him. Hey, it's in the Bible. You quoted the verse. Don't you accept His word?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Spiritual Salvation cannot be lost or forfeited once received. Neither can it be gained without certain acts on our behalf.
Repent
Repent
FaithLuke 13:3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
ConfessionActs 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
PrayerRomans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Hope of Glory
New Member
StraightAndNarrow said:We don't cause our salvation. Only Christ can do that. However, we can forfeir it by not believing (present, active participle) on Him. Hey, it's in the Bible. You quoted the verse. Don't you accept His word?
Now, see, we're getting somewhere. I accept his word based on what it says, and that's exactly why I don't think the verse is talking about spiritual salvation, for a number of reasons:
First of all, it's talking about "perishing". I don't think perishing has to do with everlasting salvation. If it is, then it's saying that salvation can be forfeited.
How is it forfeited, if that's what this verse is talking about? By stopping believing. But, we are saved by "believe" (punctiliar). I don't think we can lose our spiritual salvation. (Scripture explicitly states in Acts 16:31 that to be saved, we "believe (punctiliar) and we will (indicative; it will happen) saved.")
"Perishing" is in the middle voice, and as you have stated (and as I have stated and some seem to overlook) is that we don't save ourselves, but we can cause ourselves to perish. I don't think that you can look at "perish" (apollumi) in the Scriptures and apply it to forfeiting our spiritual salvation.
So, what does it mean to perish?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
I will not ignore scripture, nor will I rewrite it.
We cannot take one verse and build doctrine on it. We must rightly divide the Word of Truth. If Jesus said we must repent, we must repent. If Paul wrote we must confess, we must confess. If Paul wrote we must call on the name of the Lord, we must call on the name of the Lord.
No rewriting about it, but rather living by it.
We cannot take one verse and build doctrine on it. We must rightly divide the Word of Truth. If Jesus said we must repent, we must repent. If Paul wrote we must confess, we must confess. If Paul wrote we must call on the name of the Lord, we must call on the name of the Lord.
No rewriting about it, but rather living by it.
Hope of Glory
New Member
This is for SFIC. I'm repeating this question, and hoping that you will answer it. You have stated that we cannot forfeit our salvation, which I agree with 100%:
In John 3:16, "perishing" is an aorist, middle, subjunctive. That means the person who is "believing" (present, active, participle) in that verse is responsible for the perishing upon himself.
Do we cause our own everlasting salvation?
In John 3:16, "perishing" is an aorist, middle, subjunctive. That means the person who is "believing" (present, active, participle) in that verse is responsible for the perishing upon himself.
Do we cause our own everlasting salvation?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
He that believeth not is condemned already.
But belief an action word. Faith without works is dead. I can say I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, but if I do not repent of my sin and I continue to live in my sin, if I do not live Christ, my faith is dead. Not worth the words spoken.
Even the drunk will say he believes in Christ when you talk about the Lord. Yet he continues to live in his drunkenness.
No my friends, Belief is more than just speaking the words, it is living the Word.
But belief an action word. Faith without works is dead. I can say I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, but if I do not repent of my sin and I continue to live in my sin, if I do not live Christ, my faith is dead. Not worth the words spoken.
Even the drunk will say he believes in Christ when you talk about the Lord. Yet he continues to live in his drunkenness.
No my friends, Belief is more than just speaking the words, it is living the Word.
Hope of Glory
New Member
So, then it's works added to believing in order to earn salvation.
How much works or for how long?
How much works or for how long?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
how do you get works out of 'repenting, confessing, believing, and calling?' all of these are commanded in scripture as reasons salvation is given.
I have given verses to show this.
I have given verses to show this.
If Jesus said we must repent, we must repent. If Paul wrote we must confess, we must confess. If Paul wrote we must call on the name of the Lord, we must call on the name of the Lord.
They did say those things, but they must be understood in the context that they were given, not a context that you assign to the text.
Faith without works is dead. I can say I believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, but if I do not repent of my sin and I continue to live in my sin, if I do not live Christ, my faith is dead. Not worth the words spoken.
Again you are taking Bible passages and assigning your own context instead of allowing the context of the passages to tell you what they mean.
No my friends, Belief is more than just speaking the words, it is living the Word.
That is a works based salvation! And Scripture speaks against that in Ephesians 2:8-9. It seems as though you want to trust Christ, but you also want to trust in yourself. And this is coming from the person that insists that eternal salvation is based on Christ's righteousness, but then turns around and says that we must live right in order to be saved.
Which is it SFIC? Is it by faith or by works or both? The Bible says by faith apart from works. I think I'll stick to the Bible.
how do you get works out of 'repenting, confessing, and calling?'
These are all things you do. You change your mind. You confess with your mouth and you call upon the name of the Lord. Those are works. You can deny that. You can re-define them. You can do whatever you want to do, but they are works and are not associated with eternal salvation.
Again you are taking the passages where these are mentioned and assigning your own context.
Wonder why Acts 16:31 doesn't say anything about repentence, about confessing or calling? I guess they just led that poor jailor astray huh?
standingfirminChrist
New Member
Tell you what, JJump and HoG,
You rely on belief alone. I will teach the fact that faith without works is dead. I will teach that men must call on the Lord. I will teach that men must confess the Lord. I will teach repentance from sin.
I will teach the full counsel of God and not just one verse.
You rely on belief alone. I will teach the fact that faith without works is dead. I will teach that men must call on the Lord. I will teach that men must confess the Lord. I will teach repentance from sin.
I will teach the full counsel of God and not just one verse.
I will teach the fact that faith without works is dead. I will teach that men must call on the Lord. I will teach that men must confess the Lord. I will teach repentance from sin.
I teach exactly the same thing, but I teach these Truths within the Bible given context instead of creating one of my own to make my tradition continue. That's the difference!
standingfirminChrist
New Member
You say believing alone is enough to save. James says faith without works is dead.
I will believe James and teach thus.
I will believe James and teach thus.
His Blood Spoke My Name
New Member
Amen!
James 2: 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
This passage alone shows that faith alone, just saying 'I believe Jesus is Lord,' is not enough to save. One must have a repentent heart, one must confess one's sins to the Lord, one must call upon the Lord for Salvation.
Faith alone is dead, as James said. We cannot say belief alone can save. James showed us this.
James 2: 14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
This passage alone shows that faith alone, just saying 'I believe Jesus is Lord,' is not enough to save. One must have a repentent heart, one must confess one's sins to the Lord, one must call upon the Lord for Salvation.
Faith alone is dead, as James said. We cannot say belief alone can save. James showed us this.