Oil and Virgins

[J. Jump]

Christ is showing a principle that we need to deny sin in our lives and yield to Him

Please show me where Scripture says this man's riches were a sin? Jesus didn't say that. Jesus said go sell it and give it to the poor.

His riches didn't become a sin until he was unable to obey what Jesus had said, because he chose his master and it wasn't the Master.

But obedience to a work has nothing to do with eternal salvation.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Our entrance into heaven is not a works based salvation, it is not of works of righteousness which we have done.

Amen! But, we're talking about the Kingdom and not just salvation. John 3:5 specifically says "Kingdom", and "enter" is in the middle voice, which means he causes the action to happen to himself.

I'm glad that you finally see what I've been pointing out to you that our works don't affect our everlasting salvation in any way whatsoever, wheter to get it, keep it, or prove it.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Well all I can say is that you can continue to ignore Scripture teaching if you want to. You are like many others that I have run into. You want everything to be spelled out for you in this nice neat little package so they don't have to go digging for any meaning. Everything will just be sitting on the surface so you won't have to get any dirt under your pretty little fingernails.

Well sorry that's not the way the Bible is laid out. Not every single Truth is laid on the surface, but you must WORK to compare Scripture with Scripture, build precept upon precept and line upon line to get ALL of God's Truth.

If understanding God's Word was so easy then EVERYONE would understand it, but we can obviously see that that is not the case.

If you don't want to work at studying Scripture then you will miss out on a LOT of golden nuggets. That's the bottom line. Adam was told that it was by the sweat of his brow that he was going to be able to eat bread.

And it is the same for us. You want to eat the Bread of Life then it will come by the sweat of your brow, not by cherry picking a verse of Scripture here and a verse there.

No work, no reward. No pain, no gain. You know all the sports cliches, well they'll work here so insert your favorite one

I do not have to work by the sweat of my brow to receive eternal life, nor do I have to work by the sweat of my brow to enter the kingdom of heaven, nor to be included in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

The Bride is clothed in Christ's righteousness and none other. Christ's Bride is clothed in a garment unspotted, unblemished. If we put on our own works over that garment, we are putting filthy rags over clean clothes. Christ is not looking for a Bride who is spotted by worldly works.

Working by the sweat of our brow is for natural food, not spiritual. Spiritual is in sharp contrast to natural.

We are to study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman, yes; but that work is not natural, it is diligence in the Word.

Jesus said at one point, 'Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.'

Other than that, I find no other verses that tell us to work in order to gain entrance to the kingdom of heaven, or to be part of the Bride of Christ.

 

[Linda64]

When people are speaking of heaven they are speaking of eternity. The church needs to quit teaching that we spend eternity in heaven, because that is just unBiblical.

We spend eternity with God, Who will be on the new earth in the midst of His people. God is not even going to spend eternity in "heaven" as evangelicals exclaim

Who Lives In Heaven?
(1) The living God (Heb 12:22). He is called the "God of heaven" 22 times (Ps 136:26) and the "Lord of heaven" four times (Ac 17:24).
(2) Angels innumerable (Heb 12:22).
(3) The spirits of redeemed men (Heb 12:23).
(4) Jesus Christ(H eb 12:24). Jesus came down from heaven (Joh 6:38) and was received back up into heaven (Mr 16:19) and will return from heaven (Ac 1:11). Jesus is the "Lord from heaven" (1Co 15:47).

What should be the Christian's attitude toward Heaven?
(1) We should set our minds on Heaven (Col 3:1-3).
(2) We should live holy lives fit for Heaven (Col 3:5; Eph 5:8; 1Pe 2:11).
(3) We should lay up treasures in Heaven (Mt 6:20; 1Ti 6:19).
(4) We should act like citizens of Heaven and pilgrims on earth (Heb 11:13-16; Php 3:20).
(5) We should be certain of Heaven (1Jo 5:11-13).
(6) We should be aware of Heaven in our daily lives (Heb 12:1-2).

Way of Life Encyclopedia

You need to read more about heaven, J. Jump. Your view of heaven is pretty much skewed--IMO.

 

[J. Jump]

Your view of heaven is pretty much skewed--IMO.

Well let's just see if the Bible says our eternal home is in "heaven," as you suggest.

Revelation 21 - Then I saw a [SIZE=-1]R1034[/SIZE] new heaven and a new earth; for the [SIZE=-1]R1035[/SIZE] first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the [SIZE=-1]R1040[/SIZE] tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell [SIZE=-1]R1041[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]F239[/SIZE] among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them

And he [SIZE=-1]R1062[/SIZE] carried me away in [SIZE=-1]R1063[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]F245[/SIZE] the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the [SIZE=-1]R1064[/SIZE] holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, I saw no [SIZE=-1]R1087[/SIZE] temple [SIZE=-1]F254[/SIZE] in it, for the Lord [SIZE=-1]R1088[/SIZE] God the Almighty and the Lamb [SIZE=-1]R1089[/SIZE] are its temple.

Now if God is going to dwell amongst His people on earth then how can we spend eternity in heaven?

Israel was promised a physical kingdom and to be the head of the nations. Do you think God was lying about that? Going to be hard to have a physical nation and physical kingdom in heaven.

It has been God's purpose for man to rule over the earth and He has not changed His mind.

Now will your change your mind and form to Scripture or are you going to continue to deny Scripture to hold on to your tradition?

 

[J. Jump]

We should set our minds on Heaven (Col 3:1-3).

1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

The things above are spiritual, not earthly or physical. We aren't really supposed to keep our minds on the dwelling place of God. The things are above. Heaven is just the location of the things we are to be seeking and thinking of.

We should live holy lives fit for Heaven (Col 3:5; Eph 5:8; 1Pe 2:11).

Therefore consider the members of your earthly body as dead to immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and greed, which amounts to idolatry.

That doesn't say anything about heaven.

for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light

That doesn't say anything about heaven.

Beloved, I urge you as aliens and strangers to abstain from fleshly lusts which wage war against the soul.

That says we are aliens, but it doesn't say our home is in heaven.

We should lay up treasures in Heaven (Mt 6:20; 1Ti 6:19).

"But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys, and where thieves do not break in or steal;

Ah we finally get to a verse that have heaven as at least part of the subject. The treasures are to be stored up there, but says nothing of them remaining there. The treasures are the crowns. And these crowns will be worn when we rule not from heaven, but from the heavens.

We should act like citizens of Heaven and pilgrims on earth (Heb 11:13-16; Php 3:20).

All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return.

Again we are to be strangers, but it doesn't save heaven is our final resting place.

For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;

And so now we come to this verse where this must mean that we will live in heaven forever. However heaven in our current citizenship because that is where our Savior is. He will not remain there and therefore neither will we.

We should be certain of Heaven (1Jo 5:11-13).

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life.

This doesn't make heaven a certainty, because eternal salvation is not even the context. Eternal salvation comes in believing the death and shed blood of Christ, not believing in the name of the Son of God.

Again this is speaking of aionios life or age-lasting life.

We should be aware of Heaven in our daily lives (Heb 12:1-2).

fixing our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of faith, who for the joy set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

This doesn't say be aware of heaven in our daily lives, but to fix our eyes on Jesus!

I just wanted to answer these Scripture posts, so that I can't be accused of not dealing with Scripture. See we can fall into some false notions when we just list a Scripture without going and seeing for ourselves what it says.

 

[Linda64]

I just wanted to answer these Scripture posts, so that I can't be accused of not dealing with Scripture. See we can fall into some false notions when we just list a Scripture without going and seeing for ourselves what it says.

Now you can quote all that in KJV---you are using a different version--not sure which one you are using--I think it is the NASB--which is very different than KJV. Whatever version it is, what you quoted is different.

 

[J. Jump]

I do not have to work by the sweat of my brow to receive eternal life

Well you obviously didn't read my response very well. I didn't say you would have to work by the sweat of your brow to receive eternal life. You are making that up.

nor do I have to work by the sweat of my brow to enter the kingdom of heaven, nor to be included in the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.

The book of James said that this comes by faith and works, so if you don't think you have to work to enter the kingdom then you will have faith that is dead, just as James said, because faith alone does not save when it comes to the kingdom.

The Bride is clothed in Christ's righteousness and none other.

Not exactly correct. Read Rev. 19:8. The bride is clothed in the righteous acts of the saints.

Christ's Bride is clothed in a garment unspotted, unblemished.

I can agree with that.

If we put on our own works over that garment, we are putting filthy rags over clean clothes.

Not so, because now you are combining two different messages.

Christ is not looking for a Bride who is spotted by worldly works.

AMEN!

Working by the sweat of our brow is for natural food, not spiritual.

I would disagree with that. Otherwise everyone would understand the deep things of Scripture. If everything was on the surface then everything would be milk and not meat.

We are to study to show ourselves approved unto God, a workman, yes; but that work is not natural, it is diligence in the Word.

That's exactly what I'm talking about. Thanks for proving my point for me. It's work to dig into the Word and go beyond scratching the surface!

Other than that, I find no other verses that tell us to work in order to gain entrance to the kingdom of heaven, or to be part of the Bride of Christ.

Well if Jesus said it once, then we really don't need anymore verses do we? Although there are far more verses of Scripture than that. Just look at the parables in Matthew 25 for one place. Read the entire book of James.

Read I John. Basically read the entire NT.

 

[J. Jump]

Now you can quote all that in KJV---you are using a different version--not sure which one you are using--I think it is the NASB--which is very different than KJV. Whatever version it is, what you quoted is different.

You're kidding right? Man you KJVO people crack me up :laugh:

Well let's just take a look at the first one to see if we need to go any further. Here is Col. 3: 1-3 in KJV:

If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

And here is the passage that I quoted in the NASB:

1 Therefore if you have been raised up with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. 2 Set your mind on the things above, not on the things that are on earth. 3 For you have died and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

Boy just a ton a difference there huh? I don't think we need to go any further. I think my posts stands.

See this is the problem with modern day Christians. They take what their pastors and Sunday School teachers and websites and radio programs and this, that and the other and they take it as gospel without having ever studied the matter out themselves.

Linda did you look up those verses of Scripture before you cut and pasted from the website to make sure they website knew what it was talking about?

Because the website didn't really know what they were talking about, as shown by actually quoting the Scriptures.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Man you KJVO people crack me up

Lessee now... Let's look at a few versions, shall we?
GNV

Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say vnto him, What are these woundes in thine hands? Then he shall answere, Thus was I wounded in the house of my friendes.

WYC

Zechariah 13:6 And it schal be seid to hym, What ben these woundis in the myddil of thin hondis? And he schal seie, With these Y was woundid in the hous of hem that louyden me.

KJV

Zechariah 13:6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.

NAS

Zechariah 13:6 "And one will say to him, 'What are these wounds between your arms?' Then he will say, 'Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.'

NIV

Zechariah 13:6 If someone asks him, 'What are these wounds on your body?' he will answer, 'The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.'

RSV

Zechariah 13:6 And if one asks him, `What are these wounds on your back?' he will say, `The wounds I received in the house of my friends.'

"

NLT

Zechariah 13:6 And if someone asks, 'Then what about those wounds on your chest? ' he will say, 'I was wounded at my friends' house!'

CSB

Zechariah 13:6 If someone asks him: What are these wounds on your chest?-- then he will answer: The wounds I received in the house of my friends.

And the following one is just too funny.

The Message

And if someone says, 'And so where did you get that black eye?' they'll say, 'I ran into a door at a friend's house.'

I know, I know. The Message is just a paraphrase.

Yes, I stand for the KJV. It lines up most accurately with the versions before it.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Yes, I stand for the KJV. It lines up most accurately with the versions before it.

It may line up most accurately with the versions before it, but what about when it doesn't line up with Scripture? Are you going to accept it then, particularly in the face of considerable evidence that it's incorrect?

BTW, that verse in Zechariah is literally "between your hands".

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

It may line up most accurately with the versions before it, but what about when it doesn't line up with Scripture? Are you going to accept it then, particularly in the face of considerable evidence that it's incorrect?

BTW, that verse in Zechariah is literally "between your hands".

What are you calling Scripture? Do you have a copy of it?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Well let's just see if the Bible says our eternal home is in "heaven," as you suggest.

Revelation 21 - Then I saw a [SIZE=-1]R1034[/SIZE] new heaven and a new earth; for the [SIZE=-1]R1035[/SIZE] first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.

And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the [SIZE=-1]R1040[/SIZE] tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell [SIZE=-1]R1041[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]F239[/SIZE] among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them

And he [SIZE=-1]R1062[/SIZE] carried me away in [SIZE=-1]R1063[/SIZE] [SIZE=-1]F245[/SIZE] the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the [SIZE=-1]R1064[/SIZE] holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, I saw no [SIZE=-1]R1087[/SIZE] temple [SIZE=-1]F254[/SIZE] in it, for the Lord [SIZE=-1]R1088[/SIZE] God the Almighty and the Lamb [SIZE=-1]R1089[/SIZE] are its temple.

Now if God is going to dwell amongst His people on earth then how can we spend eternity in heaven?

Israel was promised a physical kingdom and to be the head of the nations. Do you think God was lying about that? Going to be hard to have a physical nation and physical kingdom in heaven.

It has been God's purpose for man to rule over the earth and He has not changed His mind.

Now will your change your mind and form to Scripture or are you going to continue to deny Scripture to hold on to your tradition?

Where is heaven? Isn't it where God rules? Where is God now? If He choses to change the physical location of His kingdom does it really make any difference to Him since He is omnipresent? Does it make any difference to us if we're with Him?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Matthew 25:1-4 Thanne the kyngdoom of heuenes schal be lijk to ten virgyns, whiche token her laumpis, and wenten out ayens the hosebonde and the wijf; and fyue of hem weren foolis, and fyue prudent. But the fyue foolis token her laumpis, and token not oile with hem; but the prudent token oile in her vessels with the laumpis.

If the wise took extra oil, why did the verse not say, 'but the prudent token oile in her vessels and the laumpis?

It is quite evident that the word 'and' was used in that time, for the following verse show thus:

Matthew 25:5 And whilis the hosebonde tariede, alle thei nappiden and slepten.

The word 'with' is a far cry from the word 'and' if you read the context. Which further proves the foolish carried no oil whatsoever.

Matthew 25:8 And the foolis seiden to the wise, Yyue ye to vs of youre oile, for oure laumpis ben quenchid.

When the foolish made this statement, they were not saying their oil had gone out, but that their lamps had been quenched. As pointed out before, a lamp can be lit without oil, but will quickly die out without the oil to burn. The lamp flame would be quenched because there would be nothing to burn.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

What are you calling Scripture? Do you have a copy of it?

Yes, I would like to see a copy of this Scripture too. It is funny that the version I quoted from shows the wise virgins took on extra oil as the modern versions would have one think. And would have been used in the 4th verse back in the 14th century when the Wyclyffe Bible was penned.

And through careful research, one will see that the first English version Bible was penned between 1380 and 1384 by Wyclyffe. Wyclyffe produced 57 works during this period of time.

 

[J. Jump]

Where is heaven? Isn't it where God rules? Where is God now? If He choses to change the physical location of His kingdom does it really make any difference to Him since He is omnipresent? Does it make any difference to us if we're with Him?

Yes it is a location. It is in the farthest parts of the north. He doesn't change the physical location of His kingdom, because the entire universe is His kingdom. He's not moving the entire universe to someplace different. He's moving His residing place to someplace different.

Now if you want to call the new earth heaven, becuase that is where God will spend eternity I don't have a problem with that, but when someone speaks of heaven, odds are really stacked in favor of people talking about living eternally where God is now, not where He will be.

Just ask people. Are you going to live on earth for eternity or in heaven. They will say heaven, because that's what they have been taught. But in reality eternity will be spent on the new earth.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Matthew 25:4: αἱ δὲ φρόνιμοι ἔλαβον ἔλαιον ἐν τοῖς ἀγγείοις μετὰ τῶν λαμπάδων ἑαυτῶν.

That would be what I call Scripture. We don't have the originals, as almost everyone knows, but this is much closer to the source than one that was coped and translated and interpreted 1000 years or more later.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

<snip>
<snip>

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Yes it is a location. It is in the farthest parts of the north. He doesn't change the physical location of His kingdom, because the entire universe is His kingdom. He's not moving the entire universe to someplace different. He's moving His residing place to someplace different.

Now if you want to call the new earth heaven, becuase that is where God will spend eternity I don't have a problem with that, but when someone speaks of heaven, odds are really stacked in favor of people talking about living eternally where God is now, not where He will be.

Just ask people. Are you going to live on earth for eternity or in heaven. They will say heaven, because that's what they have been taught. But in reality eternity will be spent on the new earth.

But we're talking about the "New Earth." Who's to say that that isn't heaven?

 

[J. Jump]

But we're talking about the "New Earth." Who's to say that that isn't heaven?

That's my whole point. Eternity is on the new earth. God is the One and only One that is to say. And to date He has not called the new earth "heaven," but called it the new earth.

So unless He changes it sometime in the future we would be better served sharing the Truth with folks instead of all this feel good nonsense that is going on.