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Old folks who think they love old things

prophet

Active Member
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Folks, this is amazing. Some anonymous Internet poster knows more about my great grandfather than I do, or any of the four biographers or three scholars who wrote dissertations about John R. Rice. In fact, he knows a fact that even John R. Rice didn't know about his father, because in his book opposing all lodges, Lodges Examined by the Bible, Rice wrote that his father was a Mason, but never mentions that he was an OddFellow. Truly amazing, the knowledge "prophet" has. :tongue3::laugh:

Apparently, anyone who can read Wikipedia, knows more about your family than you do.

I learned most of what I did about Rice through the filter of Hyles, so it is very sketchy.

Again, I only meant to name the biggest pushers of doctrines that originated with Darby, the O.P. being Pretrib. John.R.Rice belongs on this list.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
BTW, FTR, I never claimed that Rice taught Dispensationalism.
I only claimed that Dispy teaching and Pretrib Rapture teaching came from the same original source...John Nelson Darby.
John R. Rice's doctrine of a Pretrib Rapture did not come from Darby in any way, shape or form. He got it from his own personal studies of the Scriptures. JRR's doctrine came from the Bible. You can disagree with that doctrine, but don't falsely attribute it to Darby.
 

prophet

Active Member
Site Supporter
John R. Rice's doctrine of a Pretrib Rapture did not come from Darby in any way, shape or form. He got it from his own personal studies of the Scriptures. JRR's doctrine came from the Bible. You can disagree with that doctrine, but don't falsely attribute it to Darby.

Sorry, that Bird dont fly.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apparently, anyone who can read Wikipedia, knows more about your family than you do.

I learned most of what I did about Rice through the filter of Hyles, so it is very sketchy.

Again, I only meant to name the biggest pushers of doctrines that originated with Darby, the O.P. being Pretrib. John.R.Rice belongs on this list.
What, you actually trust Wikipedia to get the facts right? But again, I apologize. You were right about Will Rice and the Odd Fellows--but very little else.

It's late in Japan. I'm going to hit the sack. Try not to spread any more untruths--false witnessing forbidden by the Bible--about my family while I'm asleep.
 

prophet

Active Member
Site Supporter
It does until you can actually prove a connection between John R. Rice and Darby. If you can't, you are bearing false witness.

What connection is needed?

Rice taught a doctrine that Darby originated.

Certainly you wont deny that Rice was familiar with both Darby and Scofield's writings. He addressed them both in writing.
He obviously rejected their dispy teaching.
He obviously adhered to the Pretrib.
He obviously agreed with them both concerning the RV, as well.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Revmitchell

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What connection is needed?

Rice taught a doctrine that Darby originated.

Certainly you wont deny that Rice was familiar with both Darby and Scofield's writings. He addressed them both in writing.
He obviously rejected their dispy teaching.
He obviously adhered to the Pretrib.
He obviously agreed with them both concerning the RV, as well.

You know what you need to just stop trying to tell Rice's grandson what Rice knew. How arrogant.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
What is clear is that you are going to reject any data that doesn't support what you want to believe.

None are so blind as those who refuse to see.

Fundamentalists are among the least educated people in America. The reputable data I provided irrevocably shows that to be the case.
Your data is not reputable. I have shown that to be true. It is skewed. It doesn't take into consideration the methods most fundamentalists use to teach their children. Therefore it is a completely dishonest picture of the education of the fundamentalist movement. Of course they never graduated from the public school system. They were never in it to begin with! :rolleyes:
 

OnlyaSinner

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
You know what you need to just stop trying to tell Rice's grandson what Rice knew. How arrogant.

Someone needs to recognize that correlation doesn't always equal causation. JoJ has stated that, in this case, it's not equal, and if anyone on this forum would know, he's the one. For anyone to imply causation without providing explicit evidence (more than mere correlation) is unfair.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Darby came up with PRETRIB Eschatology, and Rice taught it.
Maybe Scofield was the middle man, maybe others were in the line, but Dallas Texas was teeming with Darbyites, and Scofielders in Rice's ed. years.

My only point was to include Rice on a list of people who taught Pretrib.

Ruckman teaches it, and published much.
Rice taught it, and published much.
Scofield taught it, through his Ref. Bible, and it was published much.
Darby originated it.

Now deny anything in this post.
The post is guilt by association.
The logic is this:
My IFB church preaches against Christmas Trees and and having one in the celebration of the birth of Christ. The two (the birth of Christ & Christmas) are not related.
The J.W.'s preach the same thing: "Christmas trees have nothing to do with Christianity and should not be used in the celebration of the birth of Christ."

By your logic I am a J.W. We both should be shunned. We both are heretics. We both believe the same thing. We are both in the same camp.
Your arguments are very foolish. Guilt by association is no argument at all.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Who? Name one single DTS grad who preached at a Sword Conference. I know of none.
I'm cheering for you, John! (But I know of one DTS professor who preached at a STOL conference and at Southwide. In fact he wrote the Statement of Faith for Southwide.)

:)
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Rice taught a doctrine that Darby originated.
Maybe you should study history a bit more.

Darby did not originate the Pre Trib Rapture position. The Pre Trib rapture was taught by both Cotton (1663-1728) and Increase Mather (1639-1723) as well as Philip Doddridge (1702–1751) and John Gill (1697–1771).

Morgan Edwards published an article in 1788 regarding the Pre Trib Rapture as did Emmanuel Lacunza in 1812.

Darby probably got the idea from Lacunza, whose book, La venida del Mesías en gloria y majestad (The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty) was translated into English in 1827, the same year (what a coincidence!) that Darby first wrote of a Pre Trib Rapture.
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm cheering for you, John! (But I know of one DTS professor who preached at a STOL conference and at Southwide. In fact he wrote the Statement of Faith for Southwide.)
?
:)
Aha! Um...who? George Dollar? I can't remember him preaching at a SOTL conference, but he might have.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Aha! Um...who? George Dollar? I can't remember him preaching at a SOTL conference, but he might have.
That's who I mean. And it was your grand father who, in some small way, helped convince him to resign from DTS. Of course he then went to BJU, and, as you know, there was some small bit of friction between BJ Jr. and your Grand dad around that time so I am not sure he considered that an improvement. :D
 

John of Japan

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
That's who I mean. And it was your grand father who, in some small way, helped convince him to resign from DTS. Of course he then went to BJU, and, as you know, there was some small bit of friction between BJ Jr. and your Grand dad around that time so I am not sure he considered that an improvement. :D
Interesting! I didn't know that about the two men. But I was at BJU two years, transferring to TTU in '72, so was right in the middle of that snafu. :tonofbricks:
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
I was at BJU two years, transferring to TTU in '72, so was right in the middle of that snafu. :tonofbricks:
What I found so highly amusing is that they were fussing back and forth after both of them doing exactly the same thing! The only difference was the timing.

BJU separated from Billy Graham when he drifted into Neo Evangelicalism. JRR did exactly the same thing, but only after trying to convince Billy of the error of his ways. When it became obvious to JRR that Billy was not going to change, he too separated from him. But, according to BJ Jr. he was too slow. Yes, BJ, following the biblical mandate of going to the person in question and trying to win him to the truth is very time consuming! :D :D
 

ktn4eg

New Member
My point is that many old folks speak a bit pompously about the superiority of the "old Hymns like "Immortal, Invisible, God Only Wise" and "Be Thou My Vision" and "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" etc...

In order to save bandwidth and time, I've only quoted Luke2427's post #3 of March 3, 2013.

While I make no claim to be a musicologist, I found it interesting (to me at least) to come across some information regarding the three hymns that Luke2427 cited in his post.

I'd venture to say that, when most folks say that a certain hymn is an "O - L - D" hymn, they probably conjure up the notion that whatever hymn they're talking about is at least 400-500 years old.

However, most of these so-called "Oldies-But 'Goodies'" are probably no older than 130 or so YO.

"Immortal, Invisible, God Only Wise" [based on I Timothy 1:17] First appeared as a hymn in 1867, and in its present form in 1905 (147 & 109 years ago respectively).

While the Irish lyrics to "Be Thou My Vision" have been traced back to the 700's A.D., its English lyrics first appeared in 1905 (109 years ago). It only appeared as a hymn in 1927 (87 years ago).

Of the three hymns that he specifically cited in his post, only "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" [based on Psalm 46] could really be classified as "an old hymn" since it dates [in German] back to 1529, and [in English] in 1539]. However, the version you'll find in most American hymnals is an 1852 [162 years ago] adaptation of the original English version.

All three of these hymns have been adapted into other musical genres ranging from "Contemporary" back to "Classical."

Perhaps the best-known classical adaptation of these three hymns was made by Felix Mendelssohn in his Symphony #5 in D major, Op. 107. The bulk of this work's fourth movement is his orchestral arrangement of "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God."

As for the rest of what Luke2427 wrote in his post (#3), I pretty much agree with him.
 

prophet

Active Member
Site Supporter
Maybe you should study history a bit more.

Darby did not originate the Pre Trib Rapture position. The Pre Trib rapture was taught by both Cotton (1663-1728) and Increase Mather (1639-1723) as well as Philip Doddridge (1702–1751) and John Gill (1697–1771).

Morgan Edwards published an article in 1788 regarding the Pre Trib Rapture as did Emmanuel Lacunza in 1812.

Darby probably got the idea from Lacunza, whose book, La venida del Mesías en gloria y majestad (The Coming of the Messiah in Glory and Majesty) was translated into English in 1827, the same year (what a coincidence!) that Darby first wrote of a Pre Trib Rapture.

Thanks, I have more homework to do.
I read Cotton Mather's diary, and a few published sermons by his Dad, Grandpa, and step Dad. Didnt see pretrib, not that I was looking for it, ...but I saw Calvin.
 

exscentric

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Can't speak to those old people condemned but this oldie when speaking of old hymns I've never meant age but compared to the new, which ain't new after they are out there :)

I'd doubt many are speaking of how many centuries cuz most would not know.
 

TCassidy

Late-Administator Emeritus
Administrator
Thanks, I have more homework to do.
I read Cotton Mather's diary, and a few published sermons by his Dad, Grandpa, and step Dad. Didnt see pretrib, not that I was looking for it, ...but I saw Calvin.
I am not surprised you "didn't see pretrib" when reading Cotton and Increase Mather. You have demonstrated repeatedly your lack basic reading comprehension.
 
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