Old folks who think they love old things

[prophet]

I agree.

BTW, I prefer the King James version. I don't see it as a doctrine. I don't think that other versions are terribly flawed. I use other versions as well. But I ALWAYS preach from the King James version.

And I, since I was saved at 14, grew up on Gaither Homecoming music and The Cathedrals and Gold City.

There are good songs in the midst of that stuff.

My point is that many old folks speak a bit pompously about the superiority of the "old hymns of the faith" over new music that kids in church listen to today, and they don't know any more about "old hymns" than the kids they criticize. They, it seems to me, quite ARROGANTLY judge old by THEMSELVES. They seem to think they lived in the early days of the church or at least think that their day was superior. I would argue that it was by and large inferior. It was marked by shallowness and emotionalism. It was on one hand within academia the bearer of the most rapid expansion of liberalism this nation has ever known and on the other hand, in country churches, the bearer of the most isolationist, backwards, shallowness and man-centerdness in history (barring perhaps Finneyism).

Yet, ironically, there is a revival of love for the truly old hymns among, not old people, but young people today.

Hymns like "Immortal, Invisible, God Only Wise" and "Be Thou My Vision" and "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" etc...

I concur with many of your points in this thread, Luke.
I love the 1300 year old hymns, and tolerate the hymns of the last 120 years.

I read Wycliffe, and Tyndale, as well as The AV.

I agree with Servetus, that we must shed the invented doctrines of Rome.

Darby was a heretic, and the pretrib, and dispy "doctrines" which he, and Scofield, and Torrey, and Rice, and Ruckman, and Hyles, and many others promoted in the last 160 years, are jonnie-come-lately nonsense.

 

[Rippon]

Darby was a heretic,

You toss that word around rather lightly when you regard someone as a heretic because of their eschatology. Darby held to the fundamentals of the Faith. You have no authority to call him a heretic.

and the pretrib, and dispy "doctrines" which he, and Scofield, and Torrey, and Rice, and Ruckman, and Hyles, and many others promoted in the last 160 years, are jonnie-come-lately nonsense.

As his grandson JohnofJapan has pointed out numerous times :Rice was not a dispensationalist. He was premil and pretrib, but not a dispensationalist.

You listed men who are regarded as Fundamentalists --but many Evangelicals then and now also subscribe to dispensationalism.

 

[prophet]

You toss that word around rather lightly when you regard someone as a heretic because of their eschatology. Darby held to the fundamentals of the Faith. You have no authority to call him a heretic.

As his grandson JohnofJapan has pointed out numerous times :Rice was not a dispensationalist. He was premil and pretrib, but not a dispensationalist.

You listed men who are regarded as Fundamentalists --but many Evangelicals then and now also subscribe to dispensationalism.

Rice belongs on the list because he published much, and was pretrib. He went to Seminary where Schofield taught, no? At least in the same Denom. at the same time.

Darby wasnt anywhere near "Orthodox", so why defend his tripe?

 

[Jerome]

Rice went to Seminary where Schofield taught, no?

No...

At least in the same Denom. at the same time.

No...

 

[prophet]

No...


No...

Well that clears that up.

 

[Rippon]

Rice went to Seminary where Schofield taught, no?

Rice certainly did not. Scofield never even attended seminary so certainly never taught at a seminary.

At least in the same Denom. at the same time.

Scofield was a Congregationalist. Rice was a Baptist.

Boy,you can't get anything right. Before making assertions --verify facts.

Darby wasnt[sic] anywhere near "Orthodox", so why defend his tripe?

I am not addressing his eschatological views with which I differ. But a Christian of a reasonable mindset would certainly regard Darby as holding to the historic Christian Faith. For one to claim otherwise is worthy of needless censuring.

 

[Luke2427]

I really don't know why I bother with you as you are such an arrogant young pup that you are obviously unteachable. However, I will make one more attempt.

You say, "Historic Premil DENIES A PRETRIB RAPTURE." . . . "But you didn't know. "

I did not say that Historic Chiliasm teaches a PRE TRIB rapture. In fact I went out of my way to include the FACT that Historic Chiliasm often included the "U Turn" rapture theory. That would require a Post Trib rapture, not a Pre Trib, which I never mentioned.

I am sorry I did not use shorter, more easily understood, words. But I (wrongly) assumed you, the self appointed expert on all things Theological, would be able to understand. My mistake.

Now, what part of many Chiliasts believing in a Post Trib rapture did you not understand?

The subject being discussed when you entered the fray was "pretrib rapture." That was what was what the OP talked about in part.

Then you came on here and said I need to study and learn about Chiliasm..

 

[Luke2427]

Yes I do know what I am talking about. Your statistic is wrong and you won't admit it. How many private Christian schools are there, just the evangelical ones, and out of those just the fundamental ones? Try using a credible source.
Then out of evangelicals how many are home-schooled, and out of those how many are fundamentalist. Again, use a credible source.

Since your target is fundamentalists not being educated or not graduating from High School, I contend you don't have the right data. How many fundamentalists are there in America? How many fundamentalists have graduated from High School? Do your own research for once in your life instead of relying on someone else's skewed report.

Take a look a the thread in the Seminary and College forum: "What Colleges have you attended"
I would submit to you that the person that has the most degrees, is the most educated, has the most education, that has posted there is an IFB.
That in itself gives you some idea that your data is skewed.

What is clear is that you are going to reject any data that doesn't support what you want to believe.

None are so blind as those who refuse to see.

Fundamentalists are among the least educated people in America. The reputable data I provided irrevocably shows that to be the case.

 

[prophet]

I

Rice certainly did not. Scofield never even attended seminary so certainly never taught at a seminary.

Scofield was a Congregationalist. Rice was a Baptist.

Boy,you can't get anything right. Before making assertions --verify facts.


I am not addressing his eschatological views with which I differ. But a Christian of a reasonable mindset would certainly regard Darby as holding to the historic Christian Faith. For one to claim otherwise is worthy of needless censuring.

Ok, Lewis Sperry Chafer , who was a Schofield follower, founded DTS.

I apologize, I thought he ( C.I S.) actually taught there. Basically, DTS was founded to teach the notes in the Scofield Reference Bible.

Rice was at Wheaton, before teaming up with DTS grads in Murfreesboro, TN, in the glory days of the S.o.t.L. He attended the other 2 Dallas Schools: DBU, and S.B.T S.

So I was wrong in that connection, and I apologize.

It wasnt really my point, as the connection was made, by me, between the most influential pushers of the pretrib pretense of Darby.

BTW, Rice's Dad, was a Free Masón, and a KKK member, as well as an OddFellow. That may explain more than Schofield's heavy influence in the Dallas area Baptists in Rice's Education years.

 

[John of Japan]

Rice belongs on the list because he published much, and was pretrib. He went to Seminary where Schofield taught, no? At least in the same Denom. at the same time.

Darby wasnt anywhere near "Orthodox", so why defend his tripe?

Rippon is correct. John R. Rice was pre-mil and pre-trib but not a dispensationalist. In fact, he believed that the Church existed in the OT era and taught specifically that it did not begin at Pentecost. He studied the Scofield Bible, but specifically rejected in print Scofield's dispensationalism and other emphases of the man. I could look up quotes from Rice's writings if you are not convinced. You obviously know almost nothing about the man.... :smilewinkgrin: As for Scofield, to my knowledge he never taught at a seminary.

John R. Rice was also not Congregationalist like Scofield (later a Pres.), but Southern Baptist by education, only becoming a pioneering independent Baptist much later in life. He was educated in three SBC schools: Decatur Baptist College, Baylor U. an Southwestern Theological Seminary. The "Rice Papers," his letters and so forth, currently reside at another SBC seminary, SEBTS, where they are being collated and I was allowed to see them, but their final destination is Southwestern.

One thing I highly object to is including John R. Rice in any list with Peter Ruckman. Rice strongly opposed Ruckman's KJVO position as well as other things about the man, and wrote articles against Ruckman.

 

[John of Japan]

I

Ok, Lewis Sperry Chafer , who was a Schofield follower, founded DTS.

I apologize, I thought he ( C.I S.) actually taught there. Basically, DTS was founded to teach the notes in the Scofield Reference Bible.

Rice was at Wheaton, before teaming up with DTS grads in Murfreesboro, TN, in the glory days of the S.o.t.L. He attended the other 2 Dallas Schools: DBU, and S.B.T S.

Where did you get this nonsense? What DTS grad did Rice team up with? I worked at the SOTL in M'boro in the '70's as an assistant editor and never knew any Dallas people.

So I was wrong in that connection, and I apologize.

It wasnt really my point, as the connection was made, by me, between the most influential pushers of the pretrib pretense of Darby.

BTW, Rice's Dad, was a Free Masón, and a KKK member, as well as an OddFellow. That may explain more than Schofield's heavy influence in the Dallas area Baptists in Rice's Education years.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make in this statement.

Concerning Rice's position on prophecy, he came to his position through independent study, not his father's influence. And to counter your attempt at guilt-by-association, John R. Rice publicly and in print opposed his father's membership in the Masons. I have never heard anywhere that JRR was in the OddFellows (an odd idea), and did not know that Great-Grandfather Rice was in the KKK until very recently, when that fact was uncovered by my brother in research for his book, The Sword of the Lord. (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B004C446DC/?tag=baptis04-20)

 

[prophet]

Rippon is correct. John R. Rice was pre-mil and pre-trib but not a dispensationalist. In fact, he believed that the Church existed in the OT era and taught specifically that it did not begin at Pentecost. He studied the Scofield Bible, but specifically rejected in print Scofield's dispensationalism and other emphases of the man. I could look up quotes from Rice's writings if you are not convinced. You obviously know almost nothing about the man.... :smilewinkgrin: As for Scofield, to my knowledge he never taught at a seminary.

John R. Rice was also not Congregationalist like Scofield (later a Pres.), but Southern Baptist by education, only becoming a pioneering independent Baptist much later in life. He was educated in three SBC schools: Decatur Baptist College, Baylor U. an Southwestern Theological Seminary. The "Rice Papers," his letters and so forth, currently reside at another SBC seminary, SEBTS, where they are being collated and I was allowed to see them, but their final destination is Southwestern.

One thing I highly object to is including John R. Rice in any list with Peter Ruckman. Rice strongly opposed Ruckman's KJVO position as well as other things about the man, and wrote articles against Ruckman.

Obviously you are closer to this than I am. I included Rice on the list because he widely published the Pretrib Rapture view, that was made popular in the Dallas area by Scofield, through the Reference Bible.

Ruckman is on the list, because of his Dispensationalism.

Both of these men...2 very different beliefs on the Scriptures, were heavily influenced by Darby.

 

[prophet]

J.R.Rice's father, Will, was an OddFellow.

Rice had DTS grads preaching in Sword Conferences, after he moved to TN.

Hyles, Roloff, and other Southern Baptists were all over the Dispy and Pretrib map, and he had them preaching for him. This is what I meant by "teamed up with".

 

[John of Japan]

Obviously you are closer to this than I am.

Ya think? John R. Rice was my grandfather.

I included Rice on the list because he widely published the Pretrib Rapture view, that was made popular in the Dallas area by Scofield, through the Reference Bible.

Ruckman is on the list, because of his Dispensationalism.

Both of these men...2 very different beliefs on the Scriptures, were heavily influenced by Darby.

Absolutely wrong. Rice was never influenced by Darby, In fact, John R. Rice believed Darby to be an ultra-dispensationalist, one who had the wrong influences in Christianity and led people away from fervent evangelism.

"We must say that the ultra-dispensationalists were firsts led wrong, we believe, by too much emphasis on dispensations by Plymouth Brethren and by some notes in the Scofield Bible on this matter" (False Doctrines, John R. Rice, p. 324).

You really need to stop talking about John R. Rice. I've seldom met someone on the Internet more ignorant about him.

 

[John of Japan]

J.R.Rice's father, Will, was an OddFellow.

Rice had DTS grads preaching in Sword Conferences, after he moved to TN.

Hyles, Roloff, and other Southern Baptists were all over the Dispy and Pretrib map, and he had them preaching for him. This is what I meant by "teamed up with".

Who? Name one single DTS grad who preached at a Sword Conference. I know of none.

Hyles was a good friend of JRR, but Roloff and he did not get along. I know of one time Roloff preached at a SOTL conference, but he was not invited back for reasons I'll not discuss here.

 

[prophet]

Ya think? John R. Rice was my grandfather.

Absolutely wrong. Rice was never influenced by Darby, In fact, John R. Rice believed Darby to be an ultra-dispensationalist, one who had the wrong influences in Christianity and led people away from fervent evangelism.

"We must say that the ultra-dispensationalists were firsts led wrong, we believe, by too much emphasis on dispensations by Plymouth Brethren and by some notes in the Scofield Bible on this matter" (False Doctrines, John R. Rice, p. 324).

You really need to stop talking about John R. Rice. I've seldom met someone on the Internet more ignorant about him.

Darby came up with PRETRIB Eschatology, and Rice taught it.
Maybe Scofield was the middle man, maybe others were in the line, but Dallas Texas was teeming with Darbyites, and Scofielders in Rice's ed. years.

My only point was to include Rice on a list of people who taught Pretrib.

Ruckman teaches it, and published much.
Rice taught it, and published much.
Scofield taught it, through his Ref. Bible, and it was published much.
Darby originated it.

Now deny anything in this post.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Ahhh, ya just reminded me that its our brothers, Old Regulars birthday. I wont say just how old but the kids will be bringing him out a cake wearing asbestos suits with the fire department in the wings, just in case ....LOL!

Happy Birthday OR! Enjoy your day.:love2:

 

[prophet]

BTW, FTR, I never claimed that Rice taught Dispensationalism.
I only claimed that Dispy teaching and Pretrib Rapture teaching came from the same original source...John Nelson Darby.

 

[John of Japan]

Darby came up with PRETRIB Eschatology, and Rice taught it.
Maybe Scofield was the middle man, maybe others were in the line, but Dallas Texas was teeming with Darbyites, and Scofielders in Rice's ed. years.

My only point was to include Rice on a list of people who taught Pretrib.

Ruckman teaches it, and published much.
Rice taught it, and published much.
Scofield taught it, through his Ref. Bible, and it was published much.
Darby originated it.

Now deny anything in this post.

I won't deny anything here except that John R. Rice had any connection with any of the other three. Simply listing them together means absolutely nothing.

 

[John of Japan]

J.R.Rice's father, Will, was an OddFellow.

I must apologize. I took a second look in Lodges Examined by the Bible, and on p. 5 John R. Rice does say his father was an "Odd Fellow." You did get one thing right.