Old or Young Earth?

[evangelist6589]

Nothing wrong with having theories about how God created everything. But when OEC or YEC claim the Bible teaches explicitly the duration of creation, and ignores Job 38, they are not exercising humility and perhaps are hindering the ministry of Christ.

Explain your interpretation of Job 38.

 

[percho]

Don't know how you can reconcile those views.

Would you agree that John 11:9,10 is really about walking in the light of God and stumbling around in the darkness of the Adversary, the devil and is that spoken of as 12 hours of light, day and understood as 12 hours of darkness, night? From Gen 1:5 the light being called day and the darkness night. Evening and morning. As a matter of fact, three evenings and mornings, before God established the sun and moon to regulate time and seasons.

On the earth God commanded the light to shine out of the already present darkness that was upon the face of the deep.

Why was the darkness already present on the earth?

Darkness and death go together. See the following copied from BLB when entering death and darkness. Death and darkness were present on the earth when God commanded the light to shine out of the darkness. How long had death and darkness been on the earth? Why was it on the earth? Had God created the earth in death and darkness? When did the devil sin?


Job 3:5

Let darkness and the shadow of death stain it; let a cloud dwell upon it; let the blackness of the day terrify it.


Tools specific to Job 10:21

Job 10:21

Before I go whence I shall not return, even to the land of darkness and the shadow of death;


Tools specific to Job 10:22

Job 10:22

A land of darkness, as darkness itself; and of the shadow of death, without any order, and where the light is as darkness.


Tools specific to Job 12:22

Job 12:22

He discovereth deep things out of darkness, and bringeth out to light the shadow of death.


Tools specific to Job 28:3

Job 28:3

He setteth an end to darkness, and searcheth out all perfection: the stones of darkness, and the shadow of death.


Tools specific to Job 34:22

Job 34:22

There is no darkness, nor shadow of death, where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.


Tools specific to Psa 107:10

Psa 107:10

Such as sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, being bound in affliction and iron;


Tools specific to Psa 107:14

Psa 107:14

He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death, and brake their bands in sunder.


Tools specific to Isa 9:2

Isa 9:2

The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined.


Tools specific to Jer 13:16

Jer 13:16

Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.


Tools specific to Mat 4:16

Mat 4:16

The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.


Tools specific to Luk 1:79

Luk 1:79

To give light to them that sit in darkness and in the shadow of death, to guide our feet into the way of peace.

 

[percho]

What does Job 38 have to do with the fact that the Bible DOES tell us the duration of creation?

Ann,

What is your understanding of the phrase; Before the foundation of the world, relative to Gen 1:1?

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Is the creation of the world from romans 1:20 the same as of different from the creation of the earth of Gen 1:1?

What is the meaning of earth and world in those verses?

 

[Van]

What does Job 38 have to do with the fact that the Bible DOES tell us the duration of creation?

You might try reading the chapter and ask yourself the question. What does it say about our knowledge of creation?

 

[Van]

Explain your interpretation of Job 38.

You might try reading Job 38, then ask yourself what does it say about our understanding of creation.

Were the inspired words of Job written after God had provided the Genesis account? What do you make of that?

 

[Van]

Job 38:1-7
Then Yahweh answered Job out of the whirlwind,

2 “Who is this who darkens counsel
by words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man,
for I will question you, then you answer me!

4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Declare, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measures, if you know?
Or who stretched the line on it?
6 Whereupon were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 when the morning stars sang together,
and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

[The American Dream]

Old earth, Arminianism, and KJVO go together quite well, don't you think?

 

[quantumfaith]

Old earth, Arminianism, and KJVO go together quite well, don't you think?

For me, two out of three...not bad. OE and Arminianism....not KJVO

 

[quantumfaith]

http://ageofrocks.org/100-reasons-the-earth-is-old/

 

[quantumfaith]

OK - That shows a great disconnect between us. I do not see how death could have existed before man sinned. The Bible tells us in Romans 8:

"For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be set free from its bondage to corruption and obtain the freedom of the glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now. And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. "

I see in this scripture that even creation was affected by the sin of man.

Additionally, was Adam a special creation or did God watch evolution and say "Yeah! That one will be the first!" Was Adam's father sinful?

Annisi,

I have given some thought to this, not sure I can answer such that you would even consider, but here goes.

Romans 5:12-13

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

What we know and unfortunately experience as sin (rebellion against our God and creator) had its root in Adam, but we see that the sin was not "imputed" to individuals from Adam until Moses with the giving of the Law. From an evolutionary creationist position, as creation evolved under the engineering of God from hominids to homo sapiens, by the same principle "sin" as we define could certainly have existed until Adam, when he was given the "law" one simple command to "not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

 

[annsni]

Annisi,

I have given some thought to this, not sure I can answer such that you would even consider, but here goes.

Romans 5:12-13

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

What we know and unfortunately experience as sin (rebellion against our God and creator) had its root in Adam, but we see that the sin was not "imputed" to individuals from Adam until Moses with the giving of the Law. From an evolutionary creationist position, as creation evolved under the engineering of God from hominids to homo sapiens, by the same principle "sin" as we define could certainly have existed until Adam, when he was given the "law" one simple command to "not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil."

But you missed verse 14 that says "Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come"

Then we see verse 15 which says "But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many."

Did the people between Adam and Moses sin? Did they die? Then the effects of sin was upon them. Verse 12 states clearly that death passed to all men and we see that in the fact that their lives ended and they sinned as well.

You seriously think that there was human creation before Adam? Is there ANY support for that in Scripture?

 

[annsni]

Regarding a pre-Adamic race, I think gotquestions addresses the issue well:

http://www.gotquestions.org/pre-Adamic-race.html

 

[quantumfaith]

But you missed verse 14 that says "Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come"

Then we see verse 15 which says "But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many."

Did the people between Adam and Moses sin? Did they die? Then the effects of sin was upon them. Verse 12 states clearly that death passed to all men and we see that in the fact that their lives ended and they sinned as well.

You seriously think that there was human creation before Adam? Is there ANY support for that in Scripture?

Good point, but I think we should always consider the intent of "death", does it mean physical or spiritual. Remembering the story of garden, Adam was cursed that he would die....but he did not physically die at that instant. I believe, as the story indicates, he and Eve were denied access to the Tree of Life.

Yes, I think is quite likely and even probable that hominids....eventually we homo sapiens existed on earth prior to the story of Adam. I will also say for me the dividing point is teleological vs. dysteleological. ( I am teleological).

 

[annsni]

What of 1 Corinthians 15:45 saying that Adam was the first man? How could that be if there were other men before him? If there were men before Adam, how God went to the animals to find a helper suitable for him and then God made Eve - the mother of all of the living?

 

[quantumfaith]

What of 1 Corinthians 15:45 saying that Adam was the first man? How could that be if there were other men before him? If there were men before Adam, how God went to the animals to find a helper suitable for him and then God made Eve - the mother of all of the living?

I forget which one in hebrew applies to humanity (neshama or nashama) but I would say at the point of time of God's choice, the "first man Adam" was the chosen one that received the "breath and imago dei" of God, distinguishing Adam and all who followed as bearing that image.

 

[percho]

Did Adam become dead in trespass and sin?
When?
How long did Adam breathe, being dead in trespass and sin?
After he quit breathing, what was he?

מֹות תָּמֽוּת׃


I know no Hebrew, however does the Hebrew above mean, dying thou dost die and or, you will be dead in trespass and sin?

Adam was the figure of him to come, relative to death. Romans 5:12 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Did not Jesus, whom God his Father laid the iniquity (sin) of us all on him, not die the very death assigned to Adam from the moment that iniquity was laid upon him until the Father raised from that death three days and three nights later?

How was Jesus the in the figure of Adam? Hebrews 2:
6,7 What is man (Adam), he was made a little lower than the angels
9 But we see Jesus (in the figure of Adam), made a little lower than the angels
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through *the death he might destroy him that had the power of *the death, that is, the devil;

*the, is in the Greek. Just what death, did Jesus die? Just, how dead was he? How dead was the Son of God, born of woman, relative to God, his Father? Had the Father not resurrected the Son from the dead, how long would the Son have remained dead?




For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth John 5:21

Father of who? Did that verse not have apply to the Son of God?

For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; John 5:29

When, when did the Father give to the Son, inherent life?

Romans 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Does that verse not exactly describe what John 5:21,29 state?

 

[percho]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form, and void; and darkness, on the face of the deep. from Gen. 1:1,2 NKJV

because it is (the) God who said, Out of darkness light to shine, who did shine in our hearts, for the enlightening of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. YLT 2 Cor 4:6

Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day. Gen 1:3-5 NKJV

What was, and how long, had the darkness been on the earth that the God spoke the light to shine from and separated the two creating the first day and then five days later creating Adam who was the figure of him to come, in which the enlightenment of the knowledge of the glory of God could be seen in the face of, Jesus Christ?

‘to open their eyes, to turn from darkness to light, and the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.’ Acts 26:18 NKJV.

I removed the so called help words.

Was Adam created the figure of him to come because of something that had taken place before God said, "Let there be Light"?



Luk 3:38

Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God. ==== Could remove the help words there also.

 

[HankD]

What do you believe in? Do you believe in a old earth? If so how do you explain the plants that require pollination by insects which did no exist until day 6 of creation. How could the plants have survived for such long ages if a day is not a literal 24-hour period of time? When God says a day in Genesis why does it have a different meaning than a day said in the rest of the Old Testament?

I'm young earth but I can answer for old earthers: Virgin Pollination.

HankD

 

[Van]

The premise that Adam was not the first human being is without support in scripture. It is easy to accept that among the animals created before man, were primates, sharing much of "man's" DNA patterns. But one must leave integrity on the alter of liberalism to assert there is a viable way to have abstract thinking humans before Adam.

 

[quantumfaith]

The premise that Adam was not the first human being is without support in scripture. It is easy to accept that among the animals created before man, were primates, sharing much of "man's" DNA patterns. But one must leave integrity on the alter of liberalism to assert there is a viable way to have abstract thinking humans before Adam.

1. There is practically an infinitude of stuff we have knowledge of which is not addressed specifically in scripture.
2. The genetic connection between us (homo sapiens) and certain primates is much greater than you suggest, at the very least, the evidence supports that idea.
3 Please to do not bring integrity (personal) into the issue, unless you are willing to concede that your own is no more or no less than any other