lets_reason_toghether
New Member
What is the difference between an "old line regualar baptist" and a "primitive baptist"
thanks
thanks
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Old Regular Baptist (revised)
- Thread starter Frogman
- Start date
old regular
Active Member
There is not much difference they both came from the same original associations.In doctrine they are very close,however the Old Regulars do vary with some Primitive Baptist on the non-elect,they believe that the Love of Truth or some manifestation of God is present before the non-elect and they recieve not the Love of truth,and they won't come to the light,and they don't believe in Christ so the Gospel has no effect on them but God is manifested for judgement purposes and this finds them the non-elect judged and guilty themselves for unbelief and they will have to say amen to their own condemnation.They believe that Gods election is the only cause for any of Adams Race being saved,but election or God can not be blamed for the unbelievers final fate that man is responsible for his actions. While the condemnation they recieve was ordained of old they themselves were not predestinated nor elected for Hell and the lake of fire.This is the end result of their unbelief.I know that may sound a bit confusing to some but the Original ORB do not hold God to be the direct author of a mans sins but do believe that Christ is the author and finisher of a mans faith.We believe one must be begotten or quickened by the Spirt before they can have faith or repent of their sins.That the Gospel is for those who have life and is not a means of obtaining life.ORBs are just anthor branch of Primitive or Old School Baptist.In some associations like SGA they would not seat secret orders in their local church communion the Sisters are not to cut their hair, wear excessive jewerly or paint their faces wear mens clothing including pants, pant suites. Dresses are to be modest and below the knee shorts are not worn. Brothers are to keep their hair short not allowed to be immodest in dress must wear their pants below the knees, pay honest debts,they also believe their members should not engage in combat, if they serve in the military they can be corpsmen,medics nurses etc.. while most don't fool with it peroid.It is frowned upon!Some have served before God called them.These are just a few things that may or may not be different from the Old School Baptist that use the name Primitive, I am speaking generally of the SGA here, as many know ORB churches today can range from absolute predestination of all things to make a decision for Christ doctrines. Bro.Slone
old regular
Active Member
On the subjet of Old Line Old Regulars and Primitive Baptist,I failed to mention that some of the Primitives here in Ky preach and believe that they were saved and born again before the foundation of the world,this doctrine of actual eternal vital union is also found in some of the black Primitive Baptist Churches.This is in contrast to the Old Regular position that we where chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world,Elected according to his foreknowledge,but are by nature the children of wrath even as others until God sends forth the Spirt of Adoption to claim us thus we are born again in time,God would not need to predestinate to adopt children that already were his children.So we believe we were elected before the foundation of the world and in the mind of God, God calleth those things that be not as though they were,but we actually did not have eternal life ourselves till we were quickened by the Spirt.The purpose and Grace to save us was in Christ,eternal life had been promised,thus the election had been held according to Grace all before the day star knew its place.The name Primitive Baptist and Old Regular Baptist cover alot of ground this day and age, alot depends which group you are in reference to.There is little difference in Old Line Primitives Doctrine and ours. Practice would differ mainly concerning dress and all of our churches line their songs.There is no paid ministry among us but people do give to help ministers who travel with their expenses and they take them home with them and provide them with what ever they need while traveling. Bro.Slone
Bethelassoc
Member
Dear Old Regular Brethren:
I have a question about the associations. Since there is evidence of doctrinal variances (softshell and hardshell), are there also variances in worship? I know that there aren't major differences but was wondering which associations would be considered moderate and which ones would be considered quite conservative or if they are all the same in that manner.
For example, Sovereign Grace and Bethel (ORB - for clarification) would be considered hardshell, so their modes of worship are probably the same. Am I off on this?
David
I have a question about the associations. Since there is evidence of doctrinal variances (softshell and hardshell), are there also variances in worship? I know that there aren't major differences but was wondering which associations would be considered moderate and which ones would be considered quite conservative or if they are all the same in that manner.
For example, Sovereign Grace and Bethel (ORB - for clarification) would be considered hardshell, so their modes of worship are probably the same. Am I off on this?
David
old regular
Active Member
Dear Brother David,
There is no real difference in the mode of worship among Old Regular Baptist Associations differences in communion occur but often whithin the same association.The Mountain Association services are introduced with prayer.The churches in the other associations sometimes open with prayer only after singing some hymns or will use a brother to introduce the services.Some churches may have some special singing but most that do have came out of the United Baptist or Primitive.In our churches women do not sing behind the pulpit nor would they in the majority of ORB some associations have some harmony singing a few allow notebook songbooks an example would be the Friendship Asso. they also correspond with what we refer to as the progrssive Regular Baptist.They have churches that sometimes have instruments and Sunday School,they don't call themselves Old Regular Baptist some call themselves Union Baptist.What little difference between the different churches is based on location more than doctrine.We correspond with associations that have churches that rarely line.Bethel would not be in that group they line 99% of the time, when they don't its usally a vistor that sings straight through.
Bro. Slone
There is no real difference in the mode of worship among Old Regular Baptist Associations differences in communion occur but often whithin the same association.The Mountain Association services are introduced with prayer.The churches in the other associations sometimes open with prayer only after singing some hymns or will use a brother to introduce the services.Some churches may have some special singing but most that do have came out of the United Baptist or Primitive.In our churches women do not sing behind the pulpit nor would they in the majority of ORB some associations have some harmony singing a few allow notebook songbooks an example would be the Friendship Asso. they also correspond with what we refer to as the progrssive Regular Baptist.They have churches that sometimes have instruments and Sunday School,they don't call themselves Old Regular Baptist some call themselves Union Baptist.What little difference between the different churches is based on location more than doctrine.We correspond with associations that have churches that rarely line.Bethel would not be in that group they line 99% of the time, when they don't its usally a vistor that sings straight through.
Bro. Slone
Bethelassoc
Member
That's exactly how I feel about the United Baptists. There's slight variance by region more so than by articles of faith or doctrine.
Thanks for that insight. I figured that there was very little difference in style of worship among the ORB but wanted to make sure.
David
Gentlemen
I am new on the board, and I have enjoyed going through the information posted here about the Old Regular Baptists. I am a member of an "Old Time" Missionary Baptist Church in the Ozark Mountains in Missouri, and I notice certain similarities among the histories of the Old Regular, Regular, United, Primitive, and Missionary Baptist churches (along with all the sub-categories in each tradition) in that they in one way or another represent a move away from "modernism" in the church and/or state/national "conventions" that usurp the independence of the local church or association. In this part of Missouri, the Missionary Baptists gradually split from the Southern Baptist Convention during the first half of the 20th century, in many areas as late as the 1950's. There is a wonderful history, I feel, in the survival of these traditions that is almost unknown outside the individual groups, although the Primitive Baptists seem to be more active than others in preserving their heritage and history. I appreciate the work you have done in researching the histories of the Old Regular Baptists and other groups that have been mentioned in this thread.
Zane
I am new on the board, and I have enjoyed going through the information posted here about the Old Regular Baptists. I am a member of an "Old Time" Missionary Baptist Church in the Ozark Mountains in Missouri, and I notice certain similarities among the histories of the Old Regular, Regular, United, Primitive, and Missionary Baptist churches (along with all the sub-categories in each tradition) in that they in one way or another represent a move away from "modernism" in the church and/or state/national "conventions" that usurp the independence of the local church or association. In this part of Missouri, the Missionary Baptists gradually split from the Southern Baptist Convention during the first half of the 20th century, in many areas as late as the 1950's. There is a wonderful history, I feel, in the survival of these traditions that is almost unknown outside the individual groups, although the Primitive Baptists seem to be more active than others in preserving their heritage and history. I appreciate the work you have done in researching the histories of the Old Regular Baptists and other groups that have been mentioned in this thread.
Zane
Bethelassoc
Member
Zane:
If you are interested, I can pm you a friend's email address that's involved with Old Time Missionary Baptists in Western KY. He has a site for members, too.
Bro. Slone:
Could you tell me about the Mountain Valley Association? I saw them mentioned in the 2003 SGA minute book. Thanks.
David
If you are interested, I can pm you a friend's email address that's involved with Old Time Missionary Baptists in Western KY. He has a site for members, too.
Bro. Slone:
Could you tell me about the Mountain Valley Association? I saw them mentioned in the 2003 SGA minute book. Thanks.
David
old regular
Active Member
Dear Bethelassoc,
The Mountain Valley Association of Old Regular Baptist has churches in Va,Ohio,Ky their doctrine is pretty much the same as SGA or Bethel Associations they preach free Grace or Election by Grace. Their practice varies from church to church, one church has almost no line singing they don't seem to be as strict on dress as SGA.Their churches had all at one time belonged to Thorton Union, they left that association and formed their own.This association was not a split nor were they an arm from T.Union.It is made up of churches who over time quit lettering to Thorton Union, we preach with them and maintain a working relationship with them. Bro. Slone
The Mountain Valley Association of Old Regular Baptist has churches in Va,Ohio,Ky their doctrine is pretty much the same as SGA or Bethel Associations they preach free Grace or Election by Grace. Their practice varies from church to church, one church has almost no line singing they don't seem to be as strict on dress as SGA.Their churches had all at one time belonged to Thorton Union, they left that association and formed their own.This association was not a split nor were they an arm from T.Union.It is made up of churches who over time quit lettering to Thorton Union, we preach with them and maintain a working relationship with them. Bro. Slone
Zane, this is a very astute observation on the commonalities of these Baptist "sub-groups", which are often overlooked because of their differences.
To Bro David: Yesterday I was looking at a book on the Kentuckytown Baptist Church in Grayson County, Texas. It started as the Pleasant Hill United Baptist Church, and the association they helped form - Sister Grove Association - was originally referred to as United or United Missionary. I didn't know if you have them on your list of associations that started out as United Baptist.
Bethelassoc
Member
Bro. Vaughn:
Good to hear from you. I do have Sister Grove down, but not much info other than that. I need to get back to researching those leads soon. Thanks.
Bro. Slone:
That's interesting that an association got started without an arm or a split. How long has Mountain Valley been around?
David
Good to hear from you. I do have Sister Grove down, but not much info other than that. I need to get back to researching those leads soon. Thanks.
Bro. Slone:
That's interesting that an association got started without an arm or a split. How long has Mountain Valley been around?
David
Preacher's Boy
New Member
I was raised in orb....both father and grandfather were preachers...are there still active congregations around Cinn or Dayton Ohio?
Bethelassoc
Member
West Chester Old Regular Baptist Church
(513) 777-0007
7069 Tylersville Rd
West Chester, OH 45069
Near Cincinnati, OH (15 mi N)
(513) 777-0007
7069 Tylersville Rd
West Chester, OH 45069
Near Cincinnati, OH (15 mi N)
Preacher's Boy
New Member
Thanks...this is probably one that I attended some as a child...I had lost the location in my memory...doug ison
Bethelassoc
Member
I have another question for the ORBs:
What is the consensus of having a service taped for listening purposes? If a person is wanting the tunes to some lined out songs and would like to know if they could tape some service to have those songs preserved?
Is this frowned upon?
David
What is the consensus of having a service taped for listening purposes? If a person is wanting the tunes to some lined out songs and would like to know if they could tape some service to have those songs preserved?
Is this frowned upon?
David
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I have two CD's of Old Regular Baptist songs. The first was made by members of the Indian Bottom Association and produced by Smithsonian Folkways Recordings. I am not sure who made and produced the second album. Listening to them brings back wonderful memories of when I was a child/teenager. I don't believe that either were recorded during a church service.
God in His providence has placed me where there are no Old Regular Baptist Churches. I don't know why but I bow to His grace and wisdom.
Bethelassoc
Member
OldRegular:
I too have two CDs of songs sung by Old Regular Baptists. Both of mine are by Indian Bottom Assoc. But I think about all the other songs out there that still need to be recorded for our benefit.
My main reason is to preserve them. I would love to have a collection of every song possible that is lined out. Another reason is my church has shown interest in learning these songs. They know that I grew up with that style and they would like for me to teach them. The easiest way, I figure, is for them to become familiar with the songs by listening to them.
I do have another option to check on. I came across some work by William H. Tallmadge who studied "Old Regular, Primitive, and United Baptist hymnody in eastern Kentucky, western North Carolina, and western Virginia during the 1960s and 1970s." He has recordings of services as well as minute books, notes, and photographs of his studies. I've been told by Berea College that each tape costs $5 and I think there is a good collection.
http://www.berea.edu/library/Special/saafindaid/saa33.html
David
I too have two CDs of songs sung by Old Regular Baptists. Both of mine are by Indian Bottom Assoc. But I think about all the other songs out there that still need to be recorded for our benefit.
My main reason is to preserve them. I would love to have a collection of every song possible that is lined out. Another reason is my church has shown interest in learning these songs. They know that I grew up with that style and they would like for me to teach them. The easiest way, I figure, is for them to become familiar with the songs by listening to them.
I do have another option to check on. I came across some work by William H. Tallmadge who studied "Old Regular, Primitive, and United Baptist hymnody in eastern Kentucky, western North Carolina, and western Virginia during the 1960s and 1970s." He has recordings of services as well as minute books, notes, and photographs of his studies. I've been told by Berea College that each tape costs $5 and I think there is a good collection.
http://www.berea.edu/library/Special/saafindaid/saa33.html
David
old regular
Active Member
Most Old Regular Baptist have some tapes or CD's of services themselves.Much of the opposition to tapping comes from the Elder Brothers who say you can't capture the Spirt on tape.That being said there have been video tapes and news programs, and PBS and the L.A Times have all made tapes and have taken pictures.To the Brother looking for ORB's in the SW Ohio area there are several in different associations with varying doctrine and practices. Yours Truly an ORB
Preacher's Boy
New Member
old regular, which 3 or so are you thinking of...
My dad helped start the one in west chester when I was in grade school and started two himself...one in Sligo near Wilmington and another in Goshen...the one in Goshen I think is still active and my cousin Bill Halcomb was the moderator last time I spoke with him.
There was one in Jacksonburg and Dayton as well, but I haven't had contact with them in many years...thanks...doug ison
My dad helped start the one in west chester when I was in grade school and started two himself...one in Sligo near Wilmington and another in Goshen...the one in Goshen I think is still active and my cousin Bill Halcomb was the moderator last time I spoke with him.
There was one in Jacksonburg and Dayton as well, but I haven't had contact with them in many years...thanks...doug ison