Old Regular Baptist (revised)

[Bro. James Reed]

I don't recall the exact times they'll be meeting, but I do know that they won't be having any night time services; you know, many members of the 3 sponsoring churches, Waco, Corsicana, and Hubbard, are older and can not travel at night.

if you go to the website for the banner of love it will say there. At least, the announcement was in the paper when we received it a couple weeks ago.

click here for Banner of Love website

Hope you can make it for at least part of the meeting. If not, you could always make plans to come to the Hubbard meeting next July. Lots of time to prepare for that one.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Yes, none of the Old Regulars have instruments in their churches. I believe in some churches, there's a debate on singing only lined out songs or allowing "solo singing".

Some United Baptists do have music (piano for the most part), and it depends on location. Most Appalachian United Baptists don't and they have a close tie-in with the Old Regulars.

ORBs are for the most part "softshell", which I take to mean not fully 5 point. We United Baptists, on some issues are also considered hardshell and I think Bethel Associations label is due to the antimissions attitude it had in the 1800s.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

I was probably thinking about just Regular Baptists rather than Old Regulars. Regulars do have instruments don't they???

 

[Bethelassoc]

In a nutshell, yes. Of course, it depends on which type of "Regular" you are referring to. That's when it gets hairy..

But Old Regulars don't.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Another thing to add about line singing:

In the book, "House Upon a Rock", Mr. Glen Lee Greene mentions on pgs 204 - 205:

Church music was a curiosity that evolved but little in the decades following the introduction of a popular hymnal edited by J.R. Graves. In keeping with a practice then in vogue, this hymnal contained only the words of the hymns. It was customary for a leader to "line out" the hymns in churches that could not afford hymnals. Often this was a function of a deacon, who read aloud the words of the hymn line by line, the others singing after him. When hymnals were available but contained only the words, the appointed leader was required to "hist the tune", an introductory procedure in which a few words of the hymn were sung so that the others might recall and sing the tune correctly.

The book by Graves was, "The New Baptist Psalmist, For Churches and Sunday Schools".

 

[OldRegular]

I have not read all the posts on this topic, however, it has been suggested that the Old Regular Baptist Churches meet only once a month at a given place because of shortage of preachers. Actually most worship services involve 3-4 preachers. These preachers are not necessarily from the Church at which the service is occurring but may be visiting preachers.

Generally, after an extended period of singing, one preacher will "Introduce" the preaching service with a short sermon . Then one or more preachers will bring a message. The services will be closed with a final sermon.

This final sermon is generally the most emotional time during the service and is closed when the preacher calls for a song. During this song an invitation is given, generally as follows: "The doors of this church are open to receive anyone who has experienced the grace of God in salvation." The invitation is totally different from Southern Baptist Churches where people are implored to "accept Jesus Christ as Savior".

Though I have not attended a service at an Old Regular Baptist Church for several years I believe the above to be correct.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Sounds alot like the Russian EC-B services I attend.

 

[old regular]

The Old Regular Baptist are divided at this time into two seperate parties, softshell and hardshell
both reject musical instruments, sunday schools,missionary boards, salaried ministry.The hardshell side holds the original doctrine of the Old Regulars when they split with the absolute predestination Primitive Baptist in the 1800s their main point of contention was that the Old Regulars held that God forknew the fall of Adam vs God predestinated Adams fall, The Old Regulars believed that Gods Decree was two part,some things he permittted or suffered to happen and some things he directed this they held was different from predestination which they held was limited to the Elect Church and Christ, thus they would not fellowship the doctrine that God was the direct author of every evil event to come to pass.They seemed to prosper until the 1960s,When some Brothers in the Union Assoc. adopted some Arminian points of Doctrine that led to a split over such things as Light and Life,No scriptures to Sinners,eternal children,etc... these issues where never resolved Churches that would not go along with the new doctrines would either stay in their associations and vist one anthor or break off and form new associations such as Bethel,Soveriegn Grace or else an association would become isolated like Mud River,Mountain etc...So even at the present there are Hardshell churches among the softshell associations but there is no softshell churces among the hardshell associations.These terms are used but not liked among Old Regulars.The softshell associations and churches have kept the traditional dress codes etc.. better than the hardshell side with the exception of the SGA and a few former Thorton Union Churches,The hardshell side has kept the original ORB doctrine better than the softshell side.To put it in a nut shell the softshells preach man chooses God but only after he recieves his call ,the hardshell side preaches God Chooses the man and through the working of his(GODs)mighty power they believe,and repent.The soft side believes the sinner has life after he repents through Grace the hard side believes the sinner repents after he has life or has been quickened by the Spirt.Soft side believes man has something to do with his salvation the hard side belives it is all of Grace. Bro.Slone

 

[OldRegular]

old regular

I left that neck of the woods in 1953 and have only visited there since. Looks like things have changed a lot. I had an uncle who was moderator of the Union Association until his death in 1957. He was able to keep the divergent views pacified but after his death things changed.

The Sovereign Grace Association is a new one to me. Most of the other names I recognize.

OldRegular

 

[old regular]

The "Mother Church" in the SGA was a New Salem Association Church in its beginning. I visted a Northern New Salem (a daughter of New Salem)Church over the Holiday they seem to be drifting into decisional regeneration their singing was very traditional ORB their Dress was also their doctrine was not even a distant cousin this may be the reason they have declined in membership from nearly 1200 to 653.I would not consider them as true Old Regular Baptist.Ten years ago that make a decision for Christ would have been rebuked sharply even among the soft shelled side.

 

[old regular]

Dear Old Regular,
Who was your Uncle that was Moderator of the Union Association.We have an Elder in his 90s who @ that time belonged to the Russel Prater Church and I am sure he would have known him.In 1953 the ORBs had not divided since the Regular- Primitive Split in the 1890s and there after.
Thanks for your interest. Mountain Valley is also a newer ORB Association they favor the Sovereign Grace Position.

 

[old regular]

Dear Bethelassoc,
The Indian Bottom Association had a church in MO called the Ky Church what become of it I dont know it was near a town called Tansey or something close to that maybe Taney I am not sure.I haven't found a minute telling where they went.If anyone knows I would love to hear from you. Bro.Slone

 

[Bethelassoc]

Dear Bro Slone:

I found a Taney just south of Springfield near Amish country. I'm also told that there are some churches in that area that still have the name "United Baptist", though they are not, as far as I know.

I would love to find out more about this church. How long ago do the minutes say this church existed? I wonder if there are any I.B. members that may have some answers to that.

David

 

[rlvaughn]

David, my grandmother was born in Stone County, just west of Taney County. When I've visited relatives there, I've never seen any Baptist churches in that county other than Southern Baptists. There is (or was) an association over around Ava (Douglas County) that probably is a descendant of United Baptists, but identify themselves as "Old-time Missionary Baptist". The last I heard this association (called County Line) was dwindling down pretty small.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro. Vaughn:

Maybe it's a different Taney, as in the name of a community rather than a town (w/zip code). We have a church called Oak Grove in a community called Oak Grove, but there are three different areas called Oak Grove in the state.

I've heard of County Line Association, and in fact, it used to be a part of National Association back in the early days. I think they've always been Missionary, though, I'm not certain. I would guess that they came out of United Baptists.

David

 

[OldRegular]

I saw the name Rufus Perrigan mentioned several times earlier. He ate Sunday dinner in our home many times. My recollection is that he had a brother, or perhaps a cousin, who was recognized as one of the best preachers at that time [late 40's and early 50's] but I can't remember his first name. I could be wrong though. It has been a long time. Well, while I was writing this his name came to me, it was George.

Dad had a copy of Perrigan's history but I don't know what happened to it.

I never have figured out how my Mom cooked for so many people.

I tell folks down here that we had Sunday School before and after Sunday dinner, listening to these old Saints discuss the finer points of doctrine and Scripture. I have to confess that my upbringing and my memories often conflict with some of the things I see going on in the Southern Baptist church I attend.

 

[old regular]

Elder George Perrigan went with the Bethel Association during the split with the Union he passed away shortly after I think if its the same Elder also Bro. Rufus sided with the Bethel(free grace)brethern.

 

[Bethelassoc]

OldRegular:

I have that book by Rufus Perrigan. I'm trying to keep my eyes open for other copies. I've had several ask me to sell the book to them, but since this book also has some of my family history in it, I will hold onto it.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by old regular:
Dear Old Regular,
Who was your Uncle that was Moderator of the Union Association.We have an Elder in his 90s who @ that time belonged to the Russel Prater Church and I am sure he would have known him.In 1953 the ORBs had not divided since the Regular- Primitive Split in the 1890s and there after.
Thanks for your interest. Mountain Valley is also a newer ORB Association they favor the Sovereign Grace Position.

I responded by note. Don't know if you got it yet.

 

[old regular]

Dear Old Regular S.C,
I sent you a note back at least I think I did if you did not get it please let me know.I have heard of your Uncle,, all good things, and I was told he was a peacemaker.His passing was before my birth.The Union had and may still have a Church near NC/SC line ,not far from the ocean.There was a book put out on the Old Regulars mostly the Softshell side called Brothers and Sisters in Hope the Old Regular Baptist of Central Appalachia.I think the author was a Howard Drogan. Bro.Slone