Old Regular Baptist (revised)

[Bethelassoc]

Convicted1 and Bro Bob,

I think alot of it has to do with the demographics of the churches in the ORB and what you're calling "old" united baptists (mostly descendants of Paint Union).

My home church, which consisted of migrants from eastern KY holds their business meetings on Sat night. The church I attend now holds their business meetings on Sunday nights. It's all about tradition from what I can see.

The oldest United Baptist associations are not what you consider "old" united baptists..as in they haven't "black-rocked" anything, but their traditions are their traditions. And, they consider their ways "old", too.



David

 

[convicted1]

RE: Old Regular Baptist(Revised)

Convicted1 and Bro Bob,

I think alot of it has to do with the demographics of the churches in the ORB and what you're calling "old" united baptists (mostly descendants of Paint Union).

My home church, which consisted of migrants from eastern KY holds their business meetings on Sat night. The church I attend now holds their business meetings on Sunday nights. It's all about tradition from what I can see.

The oldest United Baptist associations are not what you consider "old" united baptists..as in they haven't "black-rocked" anything, but their traditions are their traditions. And, they consider their ways "old", too.



David

David, I in no means mean to offend you in anyway, but the reason why I call them "Old Line" United Baptists, is because around here there are two sides of UBs. Paint Union, Old Paint Union, Tri-State Zion, etc constitute "Old Line" to me. Whereas Old Zion, New Zion, Bethlehem, etc., constitute "modern" UBs because they have strayed a long ways from the original doctrine, the best I can gather from the elders around here. I have heard several elder brethern state that a lot of the churches in Old Zion have strayed FAR from the beliefs of the elder people in that association. Some have left Old Zion and became independent churches. Philadelphia and Silver Creek are two churches I know that have left Old Zion. Silvercreek left because there was some contention over "music" in church,i.e. piano. Some of their members left later because the music was louder than the singers, and they couldn't hear the words. My father-in-law knows some that left because of this. So you see David, this is why I refer to some as Old-Line. I would like to see the faces of the people who started Silver Creek, now!! They would just shake their heads, I guess. The ORBs and some of the UBs have stayed with the original doctrine, not saying it is right or wrong, but they have. People have to do what the believe is right. God bless them for it.

Willis

PS What do you mean by "Black-rocked"? I heard about this once before, but I never got any details on it. Thanks!!

 

[Bethelassoc]

David, I in no means mean to offend you in anyway, but the reason why I call them "Old Line" United Baptists, is because around here there are two sides of UBs. Paint Union, Old Paint Union, Tri-State Zion, etc constitute "Old Line" to me. Whereas Old Zion, New Zion, Bethlehem, etc., constitute "modern" UBs because they have strayed a long ways from the original doctrine, the best I can gather from the elders around here. I have heard several elder brethern state that a lot of the churches in Old Zion have strayed FAR from the beliefs of the elder people in that association. Some have left Old Zion and became independent churches. Philadelphia and Silver Creek are two churches I know that have left Old Zion. Silvercreek left because there was some contention over "music" in church,i.e. piano. Some of their members left later because the music was louder than the singers, and they couldn't hear the words. My father-in-law knows some that left because of this. So you see David, this is why I refer to some as Old-Line. I would like to see the faces of the people who started Silver Creek, now!! They would just shake their heads, I guess. The ORBs and some of the UBs have stayed with the original doctrine, not saying it is right or wrong, but they have. People have to do what the believe is right. God bless them for it.

I'm not offended, I know what you were referring to. It was a play on words I was using. However, some would be offended at the use of "straying from the original doctrine". That makes it sound like they are in heresy. Doctrine has not been much of an issue in these problems. It's been tradition or ritual. I believe the major issue with so many splinter associations has been personality clashes and the issue of belief has been the mask (double married preachers, etc). These divisions are a shame, no matter what your flavor is. But no, no offense taken, convicted1.

Black Rock was referring to the black rock address of 1832. The stance that the Primitive Baptists took on certain practices in the churches of that time.

David

 

[convicted1]

I'm not offended, I know what you were referring to. It was a play on words I was using. However, some would be offended at the use of "straying from the original doctrine". That makes it sound like they are in heresy. Doctrine has not been much of an issue in these problems. It's been tradition or ritual. I believe the major issue with so many splinter associations has been personality clashes and the issue of belief has been the mask (double married preachers, etc). These divisions are a shame, no matter what your flavor is. But no, no offense taken, convicted1.

Black Rock was referring to the black rock address of 1832. The stance that the Primitive Baptists took on certain practices in the churches of that time.

David

David, I know what you are saying, and by me saying they strayed from the "original doctrine", I didn't mean to make it sound like heresy, but after you stated that, I guess it did. It's just that over the years, some of the UBs started having "alter calls", using special singers, having revivals, etc. I have no problem with these, except for the alter calls. I still kinda shake my head at revivals, though. I don't see anything wrong with having a week's meeting, as some churches call it, but all these revivals end up with "alter calls" at the end of each service. I want to see as many souls saved as can be, but begging them to an alter, isn't one way to do it. When God saved me, I was at work, standing on my feet in the lab. Glory!! I am not saying that God won't save them at an alter, I believe MANy souls have been saved there, but let them go on their own. Don't beg them there. I think that sometimes, people get convicted by man, and not by God. When this happens, they won't last after the water baptism. But if one goes to the pulpit to pray during service, I would go to him, and pray with him. I just want him to let God lead him, and not man. This is one reason why I love the ORBs. If I needed their prayers, they would pray for me, but they would never force theirselves on me. I went to a revival one time while I was in my travail. I asked the church to pray with me. After I finished praying, one preacher was quoting me the confession(easybelivism) salvation. I told him I didn't "feel" the burden lifted. He then told me it doesn't say anything about a "feeling". I thought to myself that I would never put myself in that position again. I didn't like the thought of someone telling me something I knew was wrong. When God saved me, I felt His peace all over and through me. That blew his "no feeling" theory right out of the water. But, I love him anyways. He was doing what he thought was best, I guess. I am sorry if this post went from ORBs to my experiences, but I had this on my mind. I hope all is well, david.

Willis Fletcher, Jr.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro Willis,

I agree with you about the altar calls. There's no need to beg, God is in control. It has become too much of a man-controlled service in some churches, where heart-felt salvation is replaced with emotionless acknowledgement and filled out cards...

I don't have a problem with revivals, to me, they are no different than union meetings, etc but to center it on begging, I never cared for and never will. God is not a beggar.

David

 

[Brother Bob]

I had a vistor last church time from Kioka Association, Old Regular Baptist. He said they were only one church now. I think they split in the 50's over creek salvation. They were down to 2 churches and now just one. He is supposed to come back next church time to visit us again. The church is in Harts, WV. He gave me one of their minutes from the 80's. It don't seem like there has been any correspondence since then, but not sure.
Anyone ever hear of this Association, I understand at one time they had correspondence with the New Salem Association??

BBob,

 

[old regular]

Kyova

Brother Bob, there was an association called the Kyova that was an arm from the New Salem, they dropped correspondence with New Salem over members belonging to Labor Unions UMWA.Their Churches were originally in the Bethlehelm Assn. of United Baptist.Some of the churches that used to be in their Assn. are now Independant. Bro.Mike

 

[convicted1]

RE: Kyova

Brother Bob, there was an association called the Kyova that was an arm from the New Salem, they dropped correspondence with New Salem over members belonging to Labor Unions UMWA.Their Churches were originally in the Bethlehelm Assn. of United Baptist.Some of the churches that used to be in their Assn. are now Independant. Bro.Mike

Brother Mike,

Was Kyova a mixture of Kentucky, Ohio, and Virginia? The way it's spelled makes me think this is how that name came about. How big was it at it biggest? I have saw the name before earlier in this thread, but know very little about it.

Willis Fletcher, Jr.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Brother Bob, there was an association called the Kyova that was an arm from the New Salem, they dropped correspondence with New Salem over members belonging to Labor Unions UMWA.Their Churches were originally in the Bethlehelm Assn. of United Baptist.Some of the churches that used to be in their Assn. are now Independant. Bro.Mike

I'm interested in knowing what the Old Regulars feel about the Labor Unions. Is it just UMWA or unions in general. I assumed that most Old Regulars in KY worked coal mines and were part of a union. :thumbs:

David

 

[old regular]

Labor Unions

The Sovereign Grace Association, "Labor Unions are not considered to be a secret order"From itemVII page 16 2005 minute .The Mt.Zion Church states that they do not consider Labor unions a secret order like Masons etc.. but members should not engage in voilent acts etc...(or unchristian like conduct).
I would say that most Old Regulars would be in agreement with the SGA on this issue. Brother Slone

 

[old regular]

Convicted

You are right about the name it was a combination of the tri-states,Bethany now in the Indian Bottom,once belonged to this association, they are in Kenova, West Virginia, in 1957 they had 6 churches 231 members, at that time there is no church listed near Hart West Virginia, they had correspondence with the New Salem,Sardis,Philadelphia, Churches listed Zion,Lick Log W.VA;Bethany, Kenova,W.Va, New Salem,Big Laurel near Cove Gap W.Va; Cove Creek near Kiahsville,W.Va; Mt.Calvary.Wayne ,W.Va; Red River, Nestlow,W.Va Zion was the established in 1830 and was the oldest church in that association., it was given off New Salem Assn. as an arm in 1924 and may have had churches in neighboring states, of this I am not certain.I would love to talk with them at the present.This may or may not be the association Brother Bob is talking about. Brother Slone

 

[Brother Bob]

If anyone wants to copy this they should hurry for the Moderators may think its too big.​

MINUTES​

Of The​

59TH ANNUAL SESSION​

OF THE OLD ORIGINAL​

Kyova Association​

of​

Old Regular Baptist​

THE CHURCH

of

JESUS CHRIST
Held with the Little Mt. Olive Church Friday and Saturday​

before the 1st Sunday in September. 1984 at Logan. W. Va.
​

Organized 1924​

ARTICLES OF FAITH​

Article 1. We, the churches of Jesus Christ, called Regular Baptist, are constituted in the following faith, viz: Regular Baptist.
Article 2. We believe in only one true and living God, the creator of heaven and earth and all things that are therein contained.
Article‘ 3. We believe in Jesus Christ the eternal Son of God, who is the head and King of His Church.
Article 4. We believe in the Holy Ghost, the sealer and the applier of the redemption purchased by Christ.
Article 5. We believe in the Father, Son and Holy Ghost; these three'agree as one.
Article 6. We believe the Old and New Testament scripture to be the infallible word of God, and take the New Testament for our only rule of practice, and nothing is to be taken away nor added to it.

16​

Article 7. We believe in the free atonement of Jesus Christ; that He tasted death for every man and that salvation is offered to all men and women on the terms of the gospel.
Article 8. We believe that repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, and regeneration are necessary previous to baptism and that emersion is the only right way of administering the ordinance.
Article 9. We believe it is not right to receive any baptism that is not done by a legal ordained elder of our faith and order.
Article 10. We believe in the communion of the Lord's Supper; that is, the taking of the bread and wine by the Church of Jesus Christ, in commemoration of the death and suffering of the Son of God, until his second coming; and that none but legal baptized members of our faith and order be admitted to the same.
Article 12. We believe that feet-washing is an ordinance of Jesus Christ and should be observed and kept until his second coming.
Article 13. We believe that Jesus Christ is the first resurrection from the dead, and that he lives forever.
Article 14. We believe in the resurrection of the just and the unjust.
Article 15. We believe in the final punishment of the wicked and the eternal happiness of the righteous.

17​

 

[Brother Bob]

We, Sardis Association of Old Regular Baptist had our association this weekend. We took in and put under "watch care" for a year, a church from the Old Union Bethlehem, United Baptist Association, which was called the "Arrowwood" side of Old Union Bethlehem, United Baptist Association. The Arrowwood is one of two brothers who published the SweetSongster. The church is located in Wayne, WVA. I am on the committe to visit them this year and check out their doctrine and practice. I pray all goes well. I just thought some might be interested in the fact this church came out of the "Arrowwood" side, publisher of SweetSongster, Old Union Bethlehem of United Baptist. The name of the church is Antioch, and have already changed their name to Old Regular Baptist. Their Moderator is Elder Clarence Mathis.

I thought it was of some historic value that the publishers of the SweetSongster, "Arrowwood" church was still around, even though I am sure they have all passed on.
BBob,

 

[convicted1]

RE: Old Regular Baptist(Revised)

Bro Bob,

The moderator of Tri-State Zion last name is Arrowood....can't remember his first name for the life of me!! He has been their moderator since at least 1995 or even earlier. He seems like a really good man, what little I know of him. I went to Bethel last August and September which is in Union Bethlehem....Antioch used to be in that assoc until they split a few years ago. The September meeting I went to last year was for the Union Bethlehem Assoc meeting. They only have six churches left in that assoc. But, to me they have very sound doctrine. The Union Bethlehem and Tri-States have very similiar beliefs....but one major stumbling block between us(ORBs) and them(UBs) is they "Know" they are saved, whereas we preach a lively hope. But that hope is an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast. I don't know how the members at Antioch believe it; this could have been why they left Union Bethlehem to start with.

I think Glen is Mr Arrowood's first name, now that I think about it. I pray that they(Antioch) feel at home in the Sardis. I feel they could use us, and I KNOW we can use them!! I pray that it works out that both sides are satisified with each other! Take care and may God bless us all!!

Willis Fletcher, Jr.

 

[Brother Bob]

This fellow's name is Flem Arrowood, I think.

 

[convicted1]

RE: Old Regular Baptist(Revised)

This fellow's name is Flem Arrowood, I think.

Bro Bob,

You are right. His first name is Flem. I couldn't remember it for the life of me!! I have heard him preach a couple of times. Is he a decendent of the Arrowoods you mentioned? I am thinking he also has a brother in Tri-State Zion that is a preacher. I just pray that Antioch feels at home with us in the Sardis. There is the "knowing" doctrine that is in quite a few of the United Baptists, but I don't know their stance on "knowing" versus "hope". I have no trouble with the "knowing" doctine, but I guess this is from the time I spent going to their churches. The bible states that we are resurrected from a dead state, to a lively hope, though. I wouldn't stop fellowship over this. But I could understand why some would....sorry able all the babbelling(sp?). I just stop feloowship, myself. I just pray that God blesses Antioch to stay in Sardis!!

 

[Brother Bob]

I wonder if Flem and his brother are the ones who at one time published the SweetSongster?

 

[convicted1]

RE: Old Regular Baptist(Revised)

Bro Bob,

I will try to talk to Bro Carter Williamson and see if he knows who is now publishing the Sweet Songster. I would like to have on of those, as well as the Thomas Hymnal. If I find any info, I will PM you what I get!

Willis

 

[old regular]

Ashamed of their History

I noticed today that the Wikipedia article on the history of the Old Regular Baptist had been edited.I think some are ashamed for a true History to be in print, the statements made on that sight were true and in the minutes of the various associations, and Elders on all sides know it, when we as a people can not stand for our history ,to be public,.We had better take a deep inventory of ourselves.Who would want to join a group of churches that won't allow the truth of their actions to be reviewed by others??It is no wonder some people refer to Old Regulars as a cult.They have churches that exclude their members for no crime, other than going to church with their United Baptist wife, and the brother sitting and listening.I know a sister who was brought before her home church for going to church with her husband, he belonged to the Indian Botttom she the Northern New Salem.I say state the history fairly and what took place but to edit the ugly parts or the parts we do not like, shows dishonesty. Elder Slone

 

[Brother Bob]

Not me, I didn't know it was there. I just read it and see nothing wrong with it though. I don't think we need to wash our dirty linen in public. If we did that, I suppose the entire Web Site would not hold all the information.

BBob,