Old Regular Baptist

[Bethelassoc]

Brother David, I'm not trying to pre-empt you; I had e-mailed someone right after I first saw this thread, and just heard back today

No Problem Bro Vaughn.

I think we're all trying to get to the truth.

I'm glad to to be able to get more information, so I can update my list of ORB Associations. I am waiting on one that has info of some ORB that came from United Baptist.

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Dear Bethel Assoc.

Thanks for the input from the SGAORB group. Speaking as a Primitive type person, I think they will have to wait awhile before any of our folks would "correspond" with them. The common appelation for them around here is "softshells." But I do have a question, don't know if you can answer or not, but it would be what would prohibit fellowship, if the answer is what I suspect it is. That being, do they believe in a universal or particular atonement. Most (not all) of the ORB's around these parts believe in a universal atonement. If they believe in a particular atonement (election), then there might be room to talk. A caveat to that would be to discover whether they believe that faith comes before regeneration or regeneration before faith. Another sticky issue with us.

(In the for what it is worth category, most of my father's family are Union or Regular Baptists).

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro Weaver:

I would have to venture to say that if they are holding to the "original doctrine", then they may be limited, but given the ORB history, I don't know for sure.

I do know some Uniteds that agree with limited, but wouldn't go so far as predestined. IMO, it depends on how you explain it.

I hope to look into the history of the Union Baptists sometime. I know that there've been some here in MO back in the late 1800s.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro. Vaughn:

I forgot to mention that I did find my Regular Baptist Book!

The official title

History of Regular Baptist and Their Ancestors and Accessors

by Rufus Perrigan
Copyright 1961
Haysi, Virginia

The book sporadically mentions the baptist's "succession" and quotes writings that I've not been able to track down.

More importantly, there are chapters solely dedicated to associations like Salem, Thornton Union, Sardis, etc. with history of their churches, and obituaries of their people.

I'm gonna try to go through the book thoroughly.

 

[Frogman]

Just found a book a while ago at the Goodwill (where I get most of my books).

HARMONY HEAVEN
James D. Vaughan
Mucic Publisher
Lawrenceburg, Tn.
CW--1934 by J.D. Vaughan

"Our 1935 Book For Sunday Schools, Singing Schools, Revivals, Conventions and General Use in Christian Worship.

I know it is not in keeping with the song books discussed in this thread, but thought I would tell yall about it. The PB are the only ones I know of having Singing Schools, maybe in earlier years, others did have too.

Would this book have been of interest to a Regular or Primitive Baptist? The other labels for use aside?

Some authors are:
Adger M. Pace
W.B. Walbert
J.T. Cook
J. W. Vaughan
and a whole list of others.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Bro. Dallas.

It wouldn't have been of interest to Regulars or Primitives, as neither have Sunday Schools, Revivals, or Conventions.

As for singing schools, I think that might be more of a regional thing. Around here, (Appalachia) all sorts of denominations had singing schools, but most have disappeared in this area.

Jeff

 

[rlvaughn]

Bro. Dallas, I doubt that book would have been of much interest to Primitive Baptists, especially in the 1930s. The music, songs, and books of the Vaughan Music Company were in line with the gospel singing conventions in the south - more of the style of the Stamps Quartet, etc.. Also the words are often of a more Arminian doctrine than acceptable among Primitive and Regular Baptists. Shape note singing schools were a quite common summer event in these parts, though by the 1960s they had begun to fizzle out. I remember a few held in the mid 1970s, though. These singing schools were usually more associated with a singing convention than with a denomination or local churches (though the schools were often held in church buildings). Nevertheless, songs from books such as "Harmony Heaven" have found their way into Primitive Baptist songbooks through the years.

I believe what was the James D. Vaughan Music and Publishing Company was sold and eventually absorbed into the publishing arm of the "Church of God, Cleveland, Tennessee". Here's a link to an article on gospel music of that genre:

Handbook of Texas: Gospel Music

 

[rlvaughn]

Originally posted by Bethelassoc:
I hope to look into the history of the Union Baptists sometime. I know that there've been some here in MO back in the late 1800s.

If memory serves, the Baptist Old Path Association of Missionary Baptists in southwestern Missouri came into existence because of the North/South division. I believe they came out of the Polk County Association (Baptist Old Path being the "Union" group, and Polk County being the southern sympathizers). Now both of those associations are unaffiliated missionary Baptists in correspondence with one another (but organized on no level beyond the local association).

These "Union" associations can probably be found in all of the border states. What appears to be unique about those in the Appalachias is that they have continued a separate existence. I'm not sure there is much "real" difference between them and other Regular Baptists in the same area. Bro. Jeff can probably speak better to that.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro. Dallas:

If you have an interest to look more into the old baptist singing, especially ORB, you may want to look at the work of Jeff Todd Titon. He along with another colleague (can't remember his name) worked on the history and make up of this style of lined out hymnody.

This work, along with the help of the members of Indian Bottom Association, produced the CD Songs of the Old Regular Baptists: Lined-Out Hymnody from Southeastern Kentucky

Some of Titon's work:

http://www.wku.edu/kentuckyfolkweb/Pages/KYFolklife_Titon.html

 

[Frogman]

Thanks Brethren,
I didn't think this book, especially in reading some of the lyrics would be of use to Primitive Baptists, I don't know as much of the Old Regulars however.

I may be wrong, but I am of the opinion from the understanding I have been able to gain through what I have read that Kentucky Baptists owe their heritage to the Regulars, whether Old Regular or just Regular.

But, this may just be my understanding of our particular history here. Although I believe John Taylor's book is a very strong indicator of how things were and how they changed.


Bro. Dallas

 

[Jeff Weaver]

I'm not sure there is much "real" difference between them and other Regular Baptists in the same area. Bro. Jeff can probably speak better to that.

Differences between "Mountain Union" Baptists and "Old Regular Baptists." Bear in mind the official names of Mountain Union Baptists is "Regular Baptists," omitting the "Old" from their title.

1st. The origins of the "Mountain Union" Baptists and the "Old Regular Baptists" is different. The former developed out of political disagreements during the American Civil War. The majority of the Mountain Union people were formerly Primitive Baptists but not all. Some left the Southern Baptist church at the same time for the same political issues. This blending, led the Mountain Union away from the strongly "Calvinistic" Primitive Baptist theology, although some members will in private tell you they are in doctrinal agreement with the Primitives. So, they have a 4-point calvinistic theology and primitive baptist practice, with three notable exceptions. Membership in secret socities is explicitly permitted. Sunday Schools, while not common, are not unheard of, and thirdly feetwashing is explicitly a test of fellowship. Participation if one is able is expected (demanded). This small group of Baptists is splintered into three factions, with very minor differences among them. Most of these "differences" are more those of "personality" than of doctrine or practice, but of course they will tell you otherwise.

Many of the Mountain Union folks in the Reconstruction period were quite active in helping the freedmen set up their own churches. In my last post on who the "Mountain Union" associations were, I omitted a couple of African American Associations. The Mountain Union people set up the "New Covenant Baptist Association" and the Blue Ridge Baptist Association in the late 1860s. Both were African-American bodies, but both have drifted far from the principles on which they were established that they are no longer in "correspondence" with one another. I went to a couple of the services in the New COvenant Baptist Association when I was a kid.

Old Regular Baptists originated in the 1890s in Appalachia over the extent of the atonement, whether limitied or general. Up until this time many primitivistic baptist churches were known as simply regular, or regular primitive baptists. As the sides were drawn the "general atonement" folks added "Old" as a prefix to the appelation regular. The limited atonement folks sometimes dropped the term "regular" and just were known thereafter as Primitive. Some of the official consituting documents of these churches are convoluted. Some in the "Old Regular" Camp were constituted as "Regular Primitive" or simply "Primitive" and some in the "Primitive" fellowship groups were constitued as "Regular." Confusing ain't it.

At any rate, this group, principally located in along the Kentucky border in Virginia, in Kentucky proper and places where these folks migrated, are differentiated from the Mountain Union churches in that they do not generally accept members of secret socities, do not have, nor tolerate "Sabbath Schools" and are not as strict about making feetwashing a test of fellowship.

Neither group, in general historical terms, would have a paid ministry, practice revivalism, utilize musical instruments. The majority of both groups are essentially Primitive Baptists who believe that the sinner must accept Jesus, and that Christ tasted death for everyman.

I should add that something has taken place among both the "Mountain Union" and "Old Regular Baptist" groups in the last few years. Several churches have withdrawn from their former associational affiliations, and there are now independent churches. These churches seem to be drifting toward more modern ways of doing things, and some are reported to have drifted into charismatic ways. One near my mother's house, put a steeple on the old building. (A building constructed in the 1840s BTW). A cousin of mine said it just ruined the "Ambiance" of the place.

My father, grandparents, and great grandparents on the paternal side were all members of the "Mountain Union."

Some scholars have lumped the "Mountain Union" in with the "old" regular baptists. There are few differences, but there are some. The folks who attend these Mountain Union churches do not refer to themselves as "Regular Baptists" with each other or folks in the community, but as "Union Baptists." Some would identify themselves to outsiders like Howard Dorgan as "Regular Baptists."

More confusing than muddy water.?

Jeff

 

[rlvaughn]

Bro. Jeff, instead of the "Old" Regulars, I had in mind some associations that simply use the term "Regular Baptist" - such as Enterprise (with churches at least in Ohio and Kentucky), Little River (Grayson, Alleghany counties, VA), Little Valley (Monroe County, WV), and one called the Primitive Association of Regular Baptists (Wilkesboro area, NC). Are you familiar with any of these? I think some of them correspond with Union Baptist associations, so may consider themselves Union Baptists, even though the term is not used officially in their minutes. There is a Regular association in northwest Arkansas, which is similar, but I know of no connections between them and the churches back east (though their origins from Primitive Baptist is similar). Some of their churches use the term "Regular Primitive".

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Bro. Robert, yes these folks are all in the same correspondence groups.

In 1867, the Mountain Union Association was established, by members who had been excommunicated from the Senter and Mountain Primitive Baptist Associations in Ashe and Alleghany Co., NC and some from Grayson Co., VA. In 1868, the Primitive Association of Regular Baptist Association was formed from members who had withdrawn from the Roaring River District Primitive Baptist Association. These two associations were joined by an association that was formerly missionary, the Stony Fork Association in Watauga Co., NC. These were the original three bodies in the "Mountain Union Movement." In the 1890s the Primitive and the Mountain Union Associations divided for convenience, spawning the Little River Association (daughter of the Mountain Union); and the Mitchell's River and Blue Ridge Associations (daughters of the Primitive Association of Regular Baptists.) About this time the Stony Fork Association reverted to its former Missionary Baptist affiliations, so at this point in time ca. 1900 their bodies were:

Mountain Union (1867) - Ashe Co., NC & Grayson Co., VA
Primitive Association (1868) - Wilkes Co., NC
Mitchell's River Association (1890) - Surry Co., NC
Blue Ridge Association (ca. 1895) - Wilkes Co., NC

All four of these associations "corresponded" with one another, and all was well.

In 1910 the Mountain Union association had an unpleasant division and six churches withdrew forming the Macedonia Associaiton of Regular Baptists. This group (the Macedonia) wanted open communion, while the others insisted on close communion. The Macedonia Association ceased to exist after their 1916 session.

In 1935, the Mountain Union Association had another unpleasant division, and another group of churches left, and joined with some of the remnants of the old Macedonia Association. The issue at this time was women preachers and a general drift toward arminian doctrine on the part of those that were expelled at that time. Those churches that were expelled formed the Christian Unity Baptist Association. As you know this group was recognized for awhile as a completely distinct Baptist subdenomination.

In 1938 the Little River Association had an unpleasant division, resulting in the formation of the Union Association centered principally in Alleghany Co., NC. The Primitive Association in Wilkes County sided with the the Union Association and the Mountain Union Association sided with the Little River Association, so at this point there are two distinct fellowship groups. About this same time, the Mitchell's River Association was cut off from the others, and the Blue Ridge Association converted from "Union Baptist" to "Southern Baptist." So, at 1940 or so, their fellowship looked something like this

Group A
Mountain Union
Little River

Group B
Union
Primitive

Group C
Mitchell's River

In the mid-1940s the Little River Association fractured again (twice), so by 1950 there were three associations using the name "Little River Association of Regular Baptists." One of these bodies dissolved, and some members were reconciled back into one or the other of the Little River bodies, and a good number switched to become Primitive Baptists at this time.

During this time several people from this area had migrated to West Virginia to work in the coal mines, had established several churches there, formed their own association. In 1950, their fellowship lines looked like this:

Group A
Mountain Union
Little River#1
Little Valley

Group B
Union
Primitive

Group C
Mitchell's River

Group D
Little River #2

This Arrangement held until the late 1950s, when the Mountain Union Association divided over personalities, and the body divided "right down the middle." Two bodies came into being both claiming to be the Original Mountain Union Association of Regular Baptists, and the slightly larger body added the term "Original" to thier official name. The Little Vine Association in West Virginia divided about the same time, so in 1960 this arrangement came into being, and is still in existence.

Membership stats are educated guesses on my part, as I don't have any of their most recent minutes.

Group A:
Mountain Union - 12 churches - ca. 1000 members
Little River #1 - 6 churches - 500 members
Little Valley - 5 churches - 150 members

Group B
Union - 15 churches - 2000 members
Primitive - 20 churches - 2000 members
Original Mountain Union - 10 chuches - 1300 members
Little Vine (division from Little Valley) - 3 churches - 100 members

Group C
Mitchell's River - 5 churches - 400 members

Group D
Little River #2 - 5 churches - 400 members

So there are about 81 churches with about 7800 members. There are currently bodies in the following places:

Ashe, Alleghany, Watauga, Wilkes, and Surry Co., NC
Grayson, Smyth and Craig Co., VA
Monroe, Mercer and Greenbrier Co., WV
HArford and Cecil Co., MD
York and Chester Co., PA
Johnson Co., TN

About 5 years ago there was a movement afoot to put everything aside and reconcile, but it has so far come to naught.

As far as I know there is no real difference between these four fellowship groups.

 

[Jeff Weaver]

I forgot to add, that in the 1915 era, the Mountain Union, et.al. corresponded with a body in Kentucky known as the "Green River Regular Baptist Association." Don't know if it still exists or not. There was a migration from Appalachia at that time to South central Kentucky, where the Green River body was located.

Jeff

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro Vaughn:

Our association (Bethel) corresponds with Enterprise Association. Some call them Enterprise Baptists.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Here's part of my tie-in to the Old Regulars:

"LITTLE MARTHA CHURCH ESTABLISHED NOVEMBER 24, 1951

This church is located at Galdia, KY and was an arm given off from the Philadelphia Church (Union Assoc?) to organize this new body the members are as follows. Brothers W. H. Wireman (Great Uncle), Austin Allen, Leck Sheppard, Rosco Stephens, and sisters, Ada Wireman, Josie Allen, Telia Sheppard, Delia Jane Stephens (Delila; Great Aunt), Martha Wireman (Great-Grandmother), Celia Brown, and Julia Hicks (Julie; Great Aunt).... after being fully questioned upon the Articles of Faith and Constitution of the New Salem Association and found to be orthodox as they appointed their regular meeting time the fourth Saturday and Sunday in each month and has increased from 11 when organized to, as of 1960, 31 in number with M.H. Wireman, clerk."

Excerpt from History of Regular Baptist, pg. 176

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bros Vaughn and Weaver:

What do you all know about Powell River and Three Forks Associations? They are mentioned in Perrigan's Regular Baptist book.

I think that they are/were called Regular Primitive, but I wondered if they were called Old Regular at anytime.

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Re: The Three Forks Association. This association, formed in 1851, would have been known as "regular" Baptists prior to 1869, when the term "Primitive" was adopted in this part of Appalachia. This body was the only daughter Association of the Stony Creek Association, which was a daughter association of the Washington District Regular Primitive. The Washington Association was formed in 1811, as a daughter of the Holston Association, formed in 1786, which in turn was a daughter of the Sandy Creek Assn. I belong to a church in the St. Clair District, which is also a daughter of the Washington Association. The Three Forks of Powell's Valley Association is a Universalist body.

The Powell's Valley Association, is badly fractured, and there are three different Primitive Baptist bodies by that name, all relatively large for Primitive Baptists. One of the three is progessive Primitive baptist. As far as I can recall from their minutes they never used the term "Old regular" but were known as Regular, again prior to 1869.

Hope it helps. I am at work at the moment, going on memory, not on documented evidence.

Jeff.

 

[Bethelassoc]

The Washington Association was formed in 1811, as a daughter of the Holston Association

Does this mean that since Holston was United Baptist at one time, and given that Washington was formed in 1811, it's a pretty good indicator that it too was United Baptist?

Also, Is Powell River the same a Powell Valley?

Thanks

 

[Frogman]

Originally posted by Jeff Weaver:
I forgot to add, that in the 1915 era, the Mountain Union, et.al. corresponded with a body in Kentucky known as the "Green River Regular Baptist Association." Don't know if it still exists or not. There was a migration from Appalachia at that time to South central Kentucky, where the Green River body was located.

Jeff

Dear Brother Jeff,
I will try to check this out, I think there were (2) Green River Associations one was United Baptist, but it could have come from the 'Regular' and united later with separates.

The church I attended as a child and young adult was 'Cane Valley Baptist'. It seems they were probably separate, but they were, I have learned since associated with the Green River Association; it would make since, Green River Resevoir Dam was only about a mile from the church building .

I will find out for sure and let you know. If it is the same association, I believe they are still in existence.

Bro. Dallas