Old Regular Baptist

[Jeff Weaver]

Bro. David

When you get your minute, please let me know who they correspond with. I inquired at church last Sunday with some of the fellows who travel more than I do, if they have run into any of these fellows. Concensus was they were not sure. If they are meeting with members in the Sandlick or Mates Creek, I'd like to know who, and inquire of them, their impressions of these folks.

Jeff Weaver

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro. Jeff:

I'll let you know asap.

BTW,I was told that they tried to correspond with New Hope Association of United Baptists, but NH said they would only correspond if they dropped all other correspondance. Needless to say, nothing happened.

 

[Jeff Weaver]

I suspect that their "correspondence" with any Primitive Baptist Associations would be dependent on their dropping any other correspondence as well. But I am curious to hear first hand accounts of these folks.

 

[Frogman]

Dear Bethelassoc,
I am not able to find any information on the Barren River Association(s). Are these strictly United Baptist? Could you send me your source? So I could maybe obtain a copy or something. Perhaps our Libraries here just do not have that information available, but it would be a welcome source for the reference room here.

Thanks.

Bro. Dallas

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro Dallas:

I'll PM you the source. He is working on completing the history book of the association(s) and he will allow me to post how to purchase it on my research site.

Here's a quote from him:

"The Barren River Association of United Baptists organized on September 15, 1830 at the Mt. Pleasant Meeting House in Barren County, Kentucky. Fifteen churches went into the organization. It is a daughter of the old Green River Association (org. 1800 at the Sinking Creek Meeting House in Warren County) This is different than what others have said, so that's why I need more info, too. This Association is still in existence, but inactive and very weak. There are only four churches in the association now. In its height of strength, 56 churches were affiliiated with it. The Barren River Association, as far as I know, is the only association to endorse Elder J. H. Spencer and sponsor him DURING the writing of A HIstory of Kentucky Baptists (pub. 1886). They also wrote a remarkable endorsement of the Confederacy in 1861.

The Original Barren River Association of United Baptists organized in 1841 after a division in the Barren River Association over missions. This organization continued until 1924, when it dissolved. At its height only 18 churches were affiliated with it.

The Barren River Regular Baptist Association organized in 1836, after a division in the Barren River Association over missions. THis organization continued at least until 1878, maybe later and never had more than fifteen churches affiliated. I don't know EXACTLY when it dissolved.

Most of the churches that left the Barren River Association in 1841 and in 1836, eventually returned. The Association is now the "Barren River Association of Missionary Baptists."

He said that the history of Barren River will be in a two volume set at around $80.

David

 

[Bethelassoc]

The Association is now the "Barren River Association of Missionary Baptists."

Bro Dallas:

I appreciate you allowing me to evaluate my info. Sometimes a second look really helps.

 

[Bethelassoc]

I've come across another place that sells ORB media. I could give the whole address, but it seems to give an error, so here's the longer version.

The name of the website is: http://www.kingdomcome.org

At the drop down menu, "Quick Links....", choose "Gift Shops"

Now, click on the link, "Kentucky Coal Mining Museum Gift Shop"

In here, you'll find the entry, "Old Regular Baptist Association Minutes 1876-1930"
Compiled by Clifton & Ruby Caudill $24.00

I've emailed the museum to find out the name of the association, to be certain.

David

P.S.- Still haven't received word on SGA minutes.

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Bro. David

I think the book is a compilation of obituaries contained in sundry ORB minutes, and not the actual work of the association. It is designed for the genalogist and not really this historian. Course there might be some minister's obit that would have something useful in it.

Jeff Weaver

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro Weaver:

I guess it won't matter, anyway. The museum gift shop emailed back and said they don't carry that item anymore.

On another note, I did receive minute books (no SGA minutes) Saturday and found some interesting info inside. My grandfather, who's family started an ORB church, is in a couple minute books I received of Mt.Zion Assoc from 1959 and 1960.

Also, in a 1997 minute book, Mt.Zion was corresponding with Thornton Union and Burning Springs. I wasn't surprised about Thornton Union, seeing how Mt.Zion went by "Regular United" during it's early years, but I wasn't expecting to see Burning Spring Association as a correspondant. That's quite interesting.

David

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Bro. David

The Burning Springs Association is a bit odd. I am thinking there must be a couple of groups with the same or very similar names. I have some minutes from the Buring Springs at that time. Care to post or PM some of the corresponding ministers, and I'll look to see if they are in the Regular Primitive Association.

Jeff.

 

[rlvaughn]

David, in case you should run across the item "Old Regular Baptist Association Minutes 1876-1930", compiled by Clifton & Ruby Caudill - I bought a copy on e-bay a while back, and it does contain photocopies of random Regular/Primitive/Old Regular/Regular Primitive Associations. It would be too long to list exactly what's in there, but here are the associations that are in the book: Sandlick, New Salem, Powell's River, Mates Creek, Union, and Indian Bottom. There appear to be more of Indian Bottom than any one of the others.

If you're interested in checking availability, this address is on the cover page - Fireside Printing & Publishing, HC 83 Box 2664, Whitesburg, KY 41858

 

[Jeff Weaver]

These same folks did a book with a series of obits from various ORB minutes. Didn't know they had done a second book.

Thanks for the update.

jeff

 

[rlvaughn]

Jeff, I wasn't aware of the other book. But I'm not surprised. Minute books, and the obituaries in particular, can offer a wealth of information for genealogists. Some people use the genealogical angle when advertising minute books on eBay. That can make the price go to high too!!

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro Weaver:

The minute book states that Burning Springs sent a letter of correspondance to Mt. Zion. It's quite possible that it is a different association. I wouldn't be surprised at all.

Thanks for that info, Bro. Vaughn.

 

[Frogman]

Dear Brethren,
Here is some information I have been able to locate through the WKU library, hope it is of some help. I have not been able to make it to Bowling Green, but when I do I will visit the Kentucky Library and try to locate some of these minutes and make copies.

The material is non-circulating, so I will do the best I can.

The quote from my search is below:

From: Voyager Owner <voyager@minerva.louisville.edu>
Subject: Opac Subject Browse Search for Baptists in Barren County Kentucky
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 2004 10:10:02 -0400
To: dallas.eaton@wku.edu



Title: Baptists. Kentucky. Barren River Association.
Minutes. 1st- 1831-

Primary Material: Periodical

Subject(s): Baptists. Kentucky. Barren River Association.

Description: v. 22 cm. annual.

Notes: Minutes for 1862-63 (22d-23d) combined in one issue.
In 19 - called Barren River Missionary Baptist
Association.

Location: Kentucky Library (Non-Circulating)

Call Number: BX6209 .B28x A3

Status: Not Checked Out

Library Has: 1862-63, 1901, 1908, 1912, 1914, 1916, 1918-1919,
1922-1924, 1927-1929, 1932-1933, 1936-1937, 1939-1940,
1943, 1950, 1953, 1955-1957, 1961-1962, 1965-1966

================================================================================


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Western Kentucky University Libraries
1 Big Red Way
Bowling Green KY 42101
270-745-3951

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Bro. David

It looks like there must be at least two Burning Springs Associations then. The one I am familar with states that it was established in 1813, and currently denominates itself Regular Primitive Baptist.

Hope it helps
Jeff.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro. Weaver et al:

I did get an answer about Burning Springs Regular Primitive Baptist Association:

"Mt. Zion Association did correspond with the Burning Springs Regular Primitive Baptist Association. Yes it is the same one you asked about. This has been an on again off again relationship. They did not correspond in 1999, and I do not know after that. Mt. Zion has also corresponded with Pilgrim Rest Regular Primitive Assocation and Thornton Union Old Regular Baptist. These associations have been through a lot of change and would not be considered as "strict" by mountain standards concerning some of their practices. Some of the churches in these associations do not go along with the others and there is a lot of variation in practices, but they seem able to make it work for them as far as staying together."

 

[baptistteacher]

Hi! Found this info in a web search, and wondered if someone would care to comment as to the accuracy of its portrayal of ORB.

http://www.4reference.net/encyclopedias/wikipedia/Old_Regular_Baptist.html

I kept reading in this thread about this church or group "corresponding" with (or not) with another, which sounded like writing letters or something. I found out in the article that churches choose (elect?) correspondents who visit the other churches. How and why does this happen?

 

[Jeff Weaver]

Old Regular Baptist
History
Most Regular Baptists merged with the Separate Baptists near the beginning of 19th century. The party names were dropped in favor of United Baptists. The use of the name "Regular" has persisted among some Baptist groups, particularly among primitivistic sects that reject modern methods, including missionary and educational auxiliaries for the churches. Most Old Regular Baptists can be traced back to the New Salem Association of United Baptists (org. in eastern Kentucky in 1825). In 1854 the name was changed to "Regular United", to "Regular Primitive" in 1870, and then in 1892 to "Old Regular." The minutes of New Salem Association in 1892 indicate that they feared the extremism of some predestinarians that tended toward teaching God is the author of sin.

This paragraph is accurate, except for the last sentence. The issue on predestination is more complex than is indicated here. Some Old regular Baptists believe in a general atonement, while Primitive Baptists believe in particular atonement.

Faith and Practice
The theology of the group is predestinarian, but more moderately so than the Primitive Baptists. While Primitives describe their belief as "particular election," Old Regulars prefer the terminology "election by grace." Churches form local associations by which they fellowship with one another. This fellowship is formally maintained by the associations electing "correspondents" to attend the meetings of the other associations. Preachers are God-called, untrained and unpaid, and preach "improvisational" (often chanted) sermons. Baptism (in running water), the Lord's supper and feet washing are held to be ordinances. Shouting is a frequent occurrence at Old Regular meeting, particularly among the female membership. Conversion experiences may be a lengthy "process," beginning with an awakening to sin, through a period of conviction and travail of the soul, to repentance and belief.

Again accurate. The process of correspondents might seem a bit odd to those who have never seen it, but it actually quite simple. Churches voluntarily associate with an association. When the churches prepare a letter to the association, it is stated "desiring to keep up a Christian correspondence with you." All these churches meet at the appointed place and time. At these associational meetings, the associations decide, which if any other associations, they wish to correspond with. They then write a letter to other associations of like faith and order (the correspondence) and appoint some members to carry it to the sister association(s) (The correspondents). It is a hold over from the days prior to telephonic communication, and at the same time represents a written record of what a particular group believes, and the expresses welcome from one body to the other. There is no organization beyond the associational level.

Current Status
The strength of Old Regular Baptists is in the Appalachias, particularly along the Kentucky and Virginia border. Currently there are sixteen local associations: Mud River, New Salem, Northern New Salem, Old Friendship, Old Indian Bottom, Philadelphia, Sardis, Union, Bethel, Friendship, Indian Bottom, Little Dove, Mountain #1, Mountain #2, Original Mountain Liberty, and Thornton Union. The first eight on the list maintain "correspondence" with one another, while the remaining eight exhibit various correspondence patterns, including one that has corresponded with Primitive Baptists and United Baptists. These sixteen associations contain about 325 churches with some 15,000 members.
Lined-Out Hymnody
One noted feature that has gained much attention to the Old Regular Baptists is their lined-out, non-instrumental, congregational hymnody. Songs of the Old Regular Baptists by Smithsonian and Jeff Todd Titon's Old Regular Baptists of Southeastern Kentucky: A Community of Sacred Song are notable in the folk music industry. Though Old Regular Baptists are not the only group to retain lined-out hymnody, theirs may be the purest, since it is the only form of singing used in their churches. According to Titon, "The leader sings the very first line, and the congregation joins in when they recognize the song. After that, the song proceeds line by line: the leader briefly chants a line alone, and then the group repeats the words but to a tune that is much longer and more elaborate than the leader's chant or lining tune." E. D. Thomas' Hymns and Spirtual Songs (1877) and Edward W. Billups' The Sweet Songster (1854) are two words-only hymn books preferred by these churches.

Accurate.

Sources
*Giving Glory to God in Appalachia, by Howard Dorgan *The Old Regular Baptists of Central Appalachia, by Howard Dorgan *Appalachian Mountain Religion, by Deborah McCauley *Dictionary of Baptists in America, Bill J. Leonard, editor
External Links
*Old Regular Baptists *Historical Sketch *History of Red Bush Old Regular Baptist Church *Information on Lined-Out Hymnody *Appalachian Music
This article courtesy of Wikipedia. This article is licensed under the GNU Free Documentation License, which means that you can copy and modify it as long as the entire work (including additions) remains under this license. GFDL: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html

Hope it helps.

 

[Bethelassoc]

I see that Bro Weaver answered in the same manner as I was going to.

I always keep in mind that correspondance is fellowship. We want to fellowship, so we correspond with like minded associations.