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Old Regular Baptist
- Thread starter Frogman
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old regular
Active Member
I think it was 1924 that seven churches from the Bethelhem United Baptist were armed off the New Salem Old Regular to form the Kyova Old Regular Association. They must of split from them over secret order in 1923.I will have to look it up in the New Salem minutes but the association did not have the name Old Bethlehem in the book, History of the Old Time Baptist by Wesley Yonts.Could this split pre date the split in Bethlehem that caused the second association known as Old Bethlehem?The Old Regulars and United Baptist in this part of the country came very close to coresponding at one time but some differences over the gospel and hope and positive knowledge put it to rest. One historian stated that New Hope Association was made of former Old Regular Churches that were opposed to predestination.I have no records of this.I do know that the United's preached they knew beyond doubt that they were saved and going to heaven while the Old Regular's preached they had only a hope ,that they were of the elect and by faith ,they believed if they were, then heaven would be their home but in nature they only had reason for their hope which was their experience of grace.They also were opposed to secret order in the United Baptist Ranks. I was told that two Elders one ORB and the other UB that stopped their efforts.There was also some talk at one time of the Mates Creek and Bethel getting together but Bethel felt the demands made by MC PB and some of their members were too much for them.This has been the case with the SGA and some groups we would have corresponded with also. mslone
Bethelassoc
Member
I'm not sure off hand about the Bethlehem split, but I was told that it happened a few years after their establishment in 1871. Both groups (Old and 'Open Communion' or what we call 'Big') contend to use the same date of origin. Their split was over communion.
Another split in the mid 20s was the result of secret orders and just one church remains from that called Mt. Calvary Regular Baptist.
Then there was another split in th 60s forming two more groups that went by (another) Bethlehem and Union Bethlehem (UBA split again after 1989).
Another split in 1989, which formed Calvary Regular United Baptist which itself split into two, calling the other one Mt.Sion Regular United. Both are closer to Old Regular Baptist than United in practice.
So, what's the score?
Speaking of Yonts, I need to get his book. I have the info, but haven't got the gumption yet to send for it.
Another split in the mid 20s was the result of secret orders and just one church remains from that called Mt. Calvary Regular Baptist.
Then there was another split in th 60s forming two more groups that went by (another) Bethlehem and Union Bethlehem (UBA split again after 1989).
Another split in 1989, which formed Calvary Regular United Baptist which itself split into two, calling the other one Mt.Sion Regular United. Both are closer to Old Regular Baptist than United in practice.
So, what's the score?
Speaking of Yonts, I need to get his book. I have the info, but haven't got the gumption yet to send for it.
What are "secret orders"?
Jeff Weaver
New Member
Secret orders are groups like the Masonic Lodge, Odd Fellows, et.al.
Old Order types of baptists generally prohibit their members from also being members of any group which isn't open to the general public.
Old Order types of baptists generally prohibit their members from also being members of any group which isn't open to the general public.
I thought as much. I just wanted to stick my toe into this intramural discussion. For that matter, many of us take the same position. I even have problems joining the American Legion. (Have you ever read their funeral service?)
Jeff Weaver
New Member
Bro. David
From your perspective, would you describe the differences in ORB and United practice? I would also like your take on what the differences in theology are?
Muchos gracias.
Jeff.
Jeff Weaver
New Member
Squire:
I haven't read the American Legion's funeral service. I keep getting invites to join the VFW and American Legion, but never have, so I really don't know much about either one.
Primitive Baptist (and all other Old Order Baptists for that matter) funeral practices are "odd" here in Appalachia. It is more of a mountain thing than a Primitivistic Baptist thing. Typically there is a lot of singing and preaching, and little of the pomp and ceremony you see with others. Some of our people have had, and I am quite serious, as many as 10 sermons at the funeral, and they had perhaps as many as 10 at the wake. It is quite tiresome and has hurt us in many ways. Many of our current members have revolted against it, and I count myself in that group. I have instructions for no services what so ever when I die. I have told my church that if they have something to say to me or about me, then do it when I am living. If they have something to say about the Lord, then regular meeting is the appropriate time for that. To everything there is a season.
Jump on in, I don't think any of us Old Order types mind.
I haven't read the American Legion's funeral service. I keep getting invites to join the VFW and American Legion, but never have, so I really don't know much about either one.
Primitive Baptist (and all other Old Order Baptists for that matter) funeral practices are "odd" here in Appalachia. It is more of a mountain thing than a Primitivistic Baptist thing. Typically there is a lot of singing and preaching, and little of the pomp and ceremony you see with others. Some of our people have had, and I am quite serious, as many as 10 sermons at the funeral, and they had perhaps as many as 10 at the wake. It is quite tiresome and has hurt us in many ways. Many of our current members have revolted against it, and I count myself in that group. I have instructions for no services what so ever when I die. I have told my church that if they have something to say to me or about me, then do it when I am living. If they have something to say about the Lord, then regular meeting is the appropriate time for that. To everything there is a season.
Sounds alot like the Russian Evangelical Christian-Baptist funerals I've heard reports of.
In my home church, we follow in the traditions of the Northern Regular Baptists. So, while there is music, there is only one preacher (usually, our senior pastor). However due to the demographics of San Francisco, with a good deal of sensetivity to the Holy Spirit's leading, these services may be the first/only Gospel wittness some attendees will hear.
As for the rest of this discussion, we'd think we'd made it to Beulah land if we had as many churchs as y'all have in our region of the country. We're so busy fighting the pagans that we don't have the time or energy to spilt hairs amoungst ourselves. That is a luxury we can ill afford. (Add to that it's easy to get lost in an ocean of 5 million people. There is also a distance factor to consider. In these parts, a 20 minute commute is nothing, 40 minutes is close by.)
In my home church, we follow in the traditions of the Northern Regular Baptists. So, while there is music, there is only one preacher (usually, our senior pastor). However due to the demographics of San Francisco, with a good deal of sensetivity to the Holy Spirit's leading, these services may be the first/only Gospel wittness some attendees will hear.
As for the rest of this discussion, we'd think we'd made it to Beulah land if we had as many churchs as y'all have in our region of the country. We're so busy fighting the pagans that we don't have the time or energy to spilt hairs amoungst ourselves. That is a luxury we can ill afford. (Add to that it's easy to get lost in an ocean of 5 million people. There is also a distance factor to consider. In these parts, a 20 minute commute is nothing, 40 minutes is close by.)
Jeff Weaver
New Member
Squire
I can relate. I was assigned to the Presidio of Monterey for a year, and we drove to Livermore California a couple of times a month for church. That was a commute. We also went to San Francisco to goof off a few times. Interesting for a boy from the hills of Appalachia.
As for churches spliting hairs, in our area it is quite the cottage industry. There is far too much of it, but it is interesting in a perverse way. I live in a town with a population of about 2600 people, and we have 2 United Methodist Churches, an Episcopal, one Southern Baptist, one Primitive Baptist, one Church of the Nazarene, three Churches of Christ, two rural Presbyterian churches within 5 miles of town, and a couple of churches which I am at a loss to describe -- Pentecostal types, but beyond that....
At any rate, it creates a condition for having very small congregations, as far as most other people would be concerned. This town was a mining community until 1972 when the company pulled out and closed the mines. It has been depopulating ever since. (Need some cheap housing, come here). Additional problems with the number of churches is that in the days before the automobile, each community wanted its own structure and meeting schedule. As the automobile came, and the area depopulated, it created a number of very small congregations. The Methodists have closed a large number of churches in the last 15 years. Primitive Baptist congregations tend to be small anyway, but we have 18 members on the rolls, and an average attendance of about 70, which is far better than other churches in the area with many more on the rolls. (We Primitive Baptists are strange that way.) What might be described as the main church in town, Madam Russell United Methodist, has about 400 members on the rolls, but has an average attendance of about 40. The people just left and never transferred their memberships to new churches. There is a lot of that.
Jeff.
I can relate. I was assigned to the Presidio of Monterey for a year, and we drove to Livermore California a couple of times a month for church. That was a commute. We also went to San Francisco to goof off a few times. Interesting for a boy from the hills of Appalachia.
As for churches spliting hairs, in our area it is quite the cottage industry. There is far too much of it, but it is interesting in a perverse way. I live in a town with a population of about 2600 people, and we have 2 United Methodist Churches, an Episcopal, one Southern Baptist, one Primitive Baptist, one Church of the Nazarene, three Churches of Christ, two rural Presbyterian churches within 5 miles of town, and a couple of churches which I am at a loss to describe -- Pentecostal types, but beyond that....
At any rate, it creates a condition for having very small congregations, as far as most other people would be concerned. This town was a mining community until 1972 when the company pulled out and closed the mines. It has been depopulating ever since. (Need some cheap housing, come here). Additional problems with the number of churches is that in the days before the automobile, each community wanted its own structure and meeting schedule. As the automobile came, and the area depopulated, it created a number of very small congregations. The Methodists have closed a large number of churches in the last 15 years. Primitive Baptist congregations tend to be small anyway, but we have 18 members on the rolls, and an average attendance of about 70, which is far better than other churches in the area with many more on the rolls. (We Primitive Baptists are strange that way.) What might be described as the main church in town, Madam Russell United Methodist, has about 400 members on the rolls, but has an average attendance of about 40. The people just left and never transferred their memberships to new churches. There is a lot of that.
Jeff.
Like we say out here:
Secret Orders - "benevolent societies" - groups that churches and members of the Barren River Association were encouraged to avoid because they saw it as mixing the world and the church. On the other hand they saw their comission as preaching the gospel and not worrying too much with humanitarian needs. "A church is a spiritual body, not a charitable body" see the difference? It's hard to understand sometimes.
It seems to me they glossed over the widows section in Acts and the pertenant verses in the Timothys.
Bethelassoc
Member
That's a good question. I think that there is little difference in ORBs and Appalachian UBs. I believe that some are raised in one and have family in the other, so they are very familiar with a certain practice.
Now, when you leave the mountains, you'll find some of the same practice in UB churches where members migrated from the hills. My old home church will still line out songs because they've kept up the tradition since coming from KY.
Other UBs don't and some have never heard of that style of singing. I'm not certain if this is a factor either, but I don't believe that ORBs have much "special singing" during the service like most UBs do. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
Theology between the two is also minimal. My opinion about it is that people are afraid of the threat of antinomianism creeping in than they are of debating eternal security. This also goes for absolutism. Bro. Slone spoke about the variance of the hope and the assurance of salvation, but I think it is the same thing.
To me, there is not a difference in the preaching from one side to the other. The styles vary, but that's it.
There's much more to break down, but that's the general feeling I have about it.
Jeff Weaver
New Member
Bro. David
Thanks.
Now, another question, if you will be so kind. Please lay out what, in your opinion, is distinctive about United Baptists?
Jeff.
Thanks.
Now, another question, if you will be so kind. Please lay out what, in your opinion, is distinctive about United Baptists?
Jeff.
Jacob Webber
New Member
I have a question. around my area there are Preaches who when preaching do the AUH! while taking in a breath. I hard that this still of preaching started in Wales in the UK. It seems pretty popular around some of the churches I have been to as a child. The current Church I attended now the Pastor does not do this He does not get as worked up. But I know He is getting the Word across just as good if not better because our church has grown so much we had to goto 4 services Sat. night 8am 9:45am and 11:30am How do you feel about these styles of preaching and which one seems to be best for you. Mine is more of the interactive Teaching.
Bethelassoc
Member
Ooh. Now that's an interesting question. If anything, the distinction is in it's history. The history is unique, in that, the union of two baptist denominations was such a wide spread phenomenon (starting in North Carolina and officially changing their names in Virginia and Kentucky and going from there), that it put, for the most part, the historical names of 'Regular' and 'Separate' into oblivion.
Some historians claim that at one time most of the baptist churches in the U.S. were under the name United Baptist:
I've heard some talk about it's theology and about how much it's mixed, based on the combo of Regular (calvinistic) and Separate Baptists. I don't think that it's that mixed, but again, it all depends on who you talk to.
I believe the theology mainly stays the same, but the worship is varied. United Baptists go from primitivistic to moderate in worship styles.
This is my take on it. I'm still learning more about it all the time.
Bethelassoc
Member
Jacob:
I think preaching styles are as different as people are different. I know what you are referring to. I've come to know it as the "preacher's wail" or the "preacher's moan".
This is what some call stylized preaching. It is usually found in the older style baptist churches. Not all preach that way. Some preach in a rhythmic motion in their breathing called a "hacking" style, and others do not.
It doesn't matter how they sound, as long as they've been called to preach.
I think preaching styles are as different as people are different. I know what you are referring to. I've come to know it as the "preacher's wail" or the "preacher's moan".
This is what some call stylized preaching. It is usually found in the older style baptist churches. Not all preach that way. Some preach in a rhythmic motion in their breathing called a "hacking" style, and others do not.
It doesn't matter how they sound, as long as they've been called to preach.
Dear Brother Drew,
Do you know if Cane Valley Baptist is still part of the Green River Association? Cane Valley is in Adair Co. Ky and is where I experienced believer's baptism as a young man [13 yrs.]. I don't remember ever taking the Lord's Supper there so I don't know if they practiced feetwashing or not. But I do know at one time they were part of the Green River Association.
Was feetwashing considered a mark or test of fellowship?
God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton
Do you know if Cane Valley Baptist is still part of the Green River Association? Cane Valley is in Adair Co. Ky and is where I experienced believer's baptism as a young man [13 yrs.]. I don't remember ever taking the Lord's Supper there so I don't know if they practiced feetwashing or not. But I do know at one time they were part of the Green River Association.
Was feetwashing considered a mark or test of fellowship?
God Bless
Bro. Dallas Eaton
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