Old Regular Baptist

[Bro. James]

"On this rock I will build my assembly; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against her." Mt.16.

This is one of many scriptures which promises the pillar and ground of the Truth in every generation.

Her history is covered in blood. She has been persecuted in every generation. This does not mean that all the persecuted are True Assemblies. The world is filled with that which is "pseudo."

The Lord knows them that are His. He has preserved them through bitter persecution. He continues to do so.

If one is looking for an assembly which stands for the truth, beware the large crowds which are looking to be entertained.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Bro. James]

What is in a name? The yellow pages under "churches" will reveal many pages of listings of groups all calling themselves churches. Which ones did Jesus build?

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[Bethelassoc]

Dear Bro. Slone:

Do you mean Iron Hill Association? Is there an Old Regular Baptist Association by that name? I always thought there were only two Iron Hills that were United Baptist.

 

[old regular]

Dear Bethel Association,
You are correct,the Ironhills I was referring to are Old United Baptist Associations only the Big Ironhill exists at present.I have never known of any Old Regular Baptist Association with this name.I knew some ministers that once belonged to Little Ironhill.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro. Slone:

Thank you for clarifying that for me. I've been told about two Iron Hills, but was never able to verify it.

Several members of Iron Hill have given me information on where to get the Sweet Songster and Thomas Hymnal, and for that, I'm grateful. There are several in my family (including myself) that want to keep the old songs going.

David

 

[old regular]

Bro.David,
We use the Thomas,Sweet Songster,Lloyds,Gobel and others that have been put out by other old
school brothers.I was told that the Sweet Songster was originally a Methodist Hymnal,The Thomas a Regular Baptist, the Lloyds and Gobel Primitive Baptist.I am thankful that you are keeping up that tradition.Most of the United Baptist I have been with line their songs ,like we do and practice much like the Old Regulars,but not all.

 

[Bethelassoc]

I've been trying to collect hymns and I also have the Gobel song book. You're right, most of the United Baptists here in Missouri have not heard lining out songs and those that have, have not heard it since they were young.

I am hoping to bring this style back into the churches. It's bery difficult when nobody else knows how to.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Bro Slone:

Where can one get a Lloyds book? For that matter the Goble as well. I purchased my Goble off of eBay.

I posted a page of the history of Little Martha ORB. I was fortunate to get a picture from my mother when she went back to KY for a visit.

http://newprovidence.8m.com/Little%20Martha.html

David

 

[old regular]

Dear Bro.David,
You might be able to get a Lloyds from the Primitive Baptist Library, Carthage Ill.(Robert Web) also they still print it in Georgia.It is very popular with some of the Black Primitive Baptist Associations.The Little Martha Church is where my Great Aunt, Anne Shepherd and her husband Jimmie were members until both of their deaths.At one time there were several Old Regular Baptist Churches in Magoffin CO one was @ Grassy but as the coal mines went out some of these communties died along with their churches.I only know of two more Old Regular Baptist Churches in that county besides Little Martha,Holbrook Memorial on Middle Creek in the MT.Liberty Asso. and the one I pastor, Mt.Moriah on Lakeville RD it joined the SGA this year.

 

[old regular]

Bro.David:
The address for obtaining a Lloyds Hymnal;
Primitive Baptist Hymns Corp
Ms.Betty Woodard Box92, Rocky Mount, N.C 27802-0092 telephone 252)291-2439 cost $8.95 plus postage arond $3.00
Bro. Slone
PS. It N.C not G.A
The Gobel is Available From the Primitive Baptist Library among other sources

 

[Bethelassoc]

Thank you, Bro. Slone for all the information.

I've talked to Elder Webb on a couple occasions about some associations in IL. I'm keeping a list of where to find these songbooks in case others are looking for them.

Someday, I'd like to be able to visit "Little Marthy" and visit family that go there. I'd also like to visit Mt. Moriah as well.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Another discussion I would like to add to the Old Regular Baptists is the lined out singing. It is not exclusive to the ORBs but it is known to go hand in hand with them.

Do any of you know of other groups that line out their songs and know what methods they use? For example, there are some PBs in southern GA that line out songs and the congregation sings it back in Sacred Harp style.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

We line out songs on occassion. The sad thing is that nowadays there are very few men who can actually line a song the way our forefathers did. There was just something about the way they used to do it.

Since most PB churches have enough songbooks to go around there is no longer a real need to line songs, except in cases where there are verses missing from a song in a particular book.

When a song is lined, the leader will sort of "sing song" the line and then the congregation will repeat to the recognized tune. BTW, I mean "sing song" as being comparable to the way many Elders preach, not as in they actually sing the line to its tune.

Currently, I know of only one Elder who can actually line a song "the way they used to". He also happens to be my cousin.

 

[rlvaughn]

Which cousin is that James? I've never heard a elder in Texas line the "way they used to" or the way it is done in the Appalachias and parts of Alabama & Georgia. I'd love to hear him sometime. [P.S. - we're having a Sacred Harp singing in Houston on December 4th, but I think one of the churches is also having an ordination that day]

David, groups that I know of that still line songs are mostly confined to the Appalachias (Old Regular, Regular, United, Primitive), though I have heard it among Primitive Baptists in Georgia, Alabama, and Texas. The folks in the Hoboken area of southeast Georgia sing some of their "responses" in Sacred Harp style, but I think more in the old "unison" style. In much of the deep south, unlike the Appalachias, Primitive Baptist singing often sounds like a Sacred Harp singing because of many of the folk's long-standing connection with it.

 

[Bro. James Reed]

The cousin is Elder Harold Horn. Up until this year he was pastor of the church at Waco, which incidentally is having a meeting this weekend that I am hoping to attend. Harold will probably be there and if asked to lead it is a good possibility that he will be asked to line a song or two. When my grandmother's older sister died in January he led the singing and lined a song. I might be wrong, but I believe his membership is with the church at Hubbard, it used to be anyway. That is the church that my family came out of before organizing a church here in Houston.

There is indeed a double ordination that Saturday. Brian Ramsey will be ordained a Deacon and Ron Smith, whose membership used to be at our church, will be ordained an Elder. It will be at the Grace Church.

BTW, I think the reason Harold is so able to line the songs the way he does is because, #1 his parents' generation of our family was from Arkansas, and before that from Missouri, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, and beginning in Virginia in the 1600's. It seems like every generation moved to a new state. Harold is the family historian, before me and also whom I learned much of what I know about the family, so he has seen and heard pretty much all of our family's history, as well as PB church history since we've been there from the get-go.

Not to insult him either, but he is also fairly old. I believe he's around 83, so he was around when the liners were very prevalent.

Well, I've rattled on enough for now. If you would like to go to the Waco meeting let me know and I'll give you directions.

Bro James

 

[Bethelassoc]

My old home church will still line out songs. I know several tunes to some of the songs. My father, brothers, and other relatives still line out songs. We do sing them in harmony although some of my family in the Old Regulars still sing in unison.

(Bro Vaughn, I'm still waiting for a reply to the Thomas Hymnal and Sweet Songster. I hope to hear soon.)

A book that I've been reading about Lousiana Baptist states that they did (back in the early 1900s) line out their songs, but it seems like they spoke the line rather than sing it out.

A good example of where the lined out singing got its roots is the CD, "Gaelic Psalms from Lewis". I found the info at this website:
http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~mudws/resource/chap13.html

The songs are sung in Gaelic but you can here the precentor and the response. It's quite moving.

 

[AltonSon]

Primitive Baptist = Hardshell, right?

Sovereign Grace Baptist = Old Regular Baptist?

How do we keep the two straight?

 

[rlvaughn]

Sovereign Grace in the case of this thread is the name of an Old Regular Baptist Association. Sovereign Grace Baptist probably most often refers to Baptists who accept the 5 points of "Calvinism".

Primitive Baptists are often referred to as "Hardshells". Though the term is embraced by some, it is probably rejected by most.

Could be hard to keep it all straight without a lot of work!

 

[Bro. James Reed]

My apologies Bro. Robert, the meeting at Waco is next weekend, Nov. 13 & 14.

Bethelassoc, the term "Hardshell" comes from one of a few possible roots. Primitive Baptists are quite often perceived as being very stubborn in our beliefs and refuse to change by adding modern innovations that many today would see as no big deal. The term hardshell could possibly be in relation to the more common phrase today, hardhead.

Another possibility is it comes from our having thick skins. We have often in times past been rejected as too old fashioned and cast down, called derogatory names, about 8 or so that I can think of off hand, including Hardshell. We are said to be impenetrable to modern innovations and seen as a group that just can't be killed, like a turtle with a hardshell.

The third possibility, and probably the correct one, is that the term originated as "Hardshall" and slightly changed over time. Our preachers often emphasize the word "shall", such as in, "He SHALL save His people from their sins." It is basically meant to say that we emphasize a "hard shall" in order to hammer the point home that our salvation is in the hands of Jesus alone and not man. If we have ever been saved, then we SHALL be saved. This is the one I think is probably correct, at least it's the most commonly accepted reason amongst our people.

I don't mind the term Hardshell too much. It, to me, invokes what is at the foundation of our beliefs, that Jesus Christ is in complete control of our salvation.

The most common terms that we use for ourselves are Primitive, of course, Old Baptist, and Old School Baptist.

Hope this helps you figure it out.

BTW, from what I understand, many of the Old Regulars have introduced things such as musical instruments and now look more like modern Baptist churches than like us Primitives. I could be wrong, but I'm thinking that is the case.

Bro. James

 

[rlvaughn]

Bro. James, as far as I can ascertain, none of the Old Regular Baptists use musical instruments, and the majority of them even reject "note books". Many of the Regulars, though, do allow musical instruments. The main difference between Old Regulars and Primitives might be that the Old Regulars take a little "softer" stance on predestination and election.

Next week would probably be better for me for the meeting. We may go to a singing tomorrow night in Arkansas, and plan to go to one Saturday near Lufkin. So a 3 hour trip to Waco on Sunday would probably have been too much. But next weekend we'll be in Dallas on Saturday and might swing down to Waco on Saturday night or Sunday. What times of day do they meet? Thanks.