Old Regular Baptist

[Brother Bob]

Mud River Old Regular Baptist

The last time Mud River showed up at the New Salem was several years ago. All other Associations had dropped correspondence with them over "light is life". The last Association to drop them was the New Salem Association. The last time they attended with correspondend with New Salem there was only 1 and possibly 2 churches that made up Mud River.

blessings,

BBob

 

[rlvaughn]

Does anyone know anything about the United Baptist of Primitive Order in Alabama? Are their associations close in doctrine faith and practice to Primitive or Old Regular Baptist.

There are two associations in Alabama (that I am aware of) that use "United Baptist of the Primitive Faith and Order" in their association's name -- Town Creek and Wills Creek. It is hard to make such a general comparison, but I would say that they are perhaps closer to some of the Kentucky United Baptists than to Old Regular or Primitive. I can't state categorically what they believe, but it seems to me somewhat like "general" in preaching and "particular" in practice, if that makes any sense. In the 1800s, these churches vacillated back and forth from the words "United", "Primitive" and "United Primitive" to what they finally have today. If not mistaken these churches were originally in fellowship with the regular Primitive Baptists in Alabama until there was a division over whether they could accept baptisms from the Missionary Baptist churches. Those that would become "United Primitive" (I think) originally thought it was OK, though I think they later would not. This is from memory and may not be totally correct.

Wills Creek has two churches and Town Creek about 6 or so. There is another larger association of 20 or 30 called "Wills Creek United Baptist Association", which is larger and more "modern" than the other Wills Creek -- baptisteries, Sunday Schools, musical instruments. They were all originally one body and represent an early 1900s split.

 

[old regular]

mud river

Mud Rivers Doctrine was never proven false by using the Word of God ,Light is Life,Life is Light look at John 8:12 and John 1:4 also no scripture to sinners look @ 2Tim3:17 look to who Pauls letters were addressed to the world or to the church. It takes the same spirt to understand the word of God as it took to Write it.What does the bible say about a carnal mind or the natural mind? No this association was badly abused by the others for the truth that is a quote from Banner Manns Elder/moderator of the New Salem, he said before he died that they were right and that he had been wrong along with the rest of the associations involved.Also note the decline of every association that dropped Mud River , they have lost more than Mud River Had. Brother Mike Slone

 

[Brother Bob]

Mud River

First of all I knew Kirby Isom, ok. I thought when I saw the name of your Association it was one of he ones that started from a split from Thornton but not sure. I also saw what you posted as doctrine for Old Regular Baptist and it is not the doctrine for New Salem, Sardis, Union, Old Friendship, Old Indian Bottom, Phildelphia and Northern New Salem. As far as light being life all of the above association differ with your explanation and so do I for "The Grace of God which bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men, that didn't leave any out did it. Also there is a Spirit in man the inspiration of God Almighty that giveth him understanding. We believe the Scripture that says;
John, chapter 1

Chapter
Book


"9": That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

(but all did not receive life did they.)

So when you give the doctrine of the Old Regular Baptist you should explain it is the ones you hold to and not all Old Regular Baptist.

Blessings

BBob

 

[Brother Bob]

Banner Mann

As far as Banner Mann;
I was there when the Association put him out as Moderator and I never saw a man cut such a shine in all my life. I thought sure there was going to be a fight that day when they put Brother Grover Adkins in as their Moderator and best thing they ever did.

Blessings,

BBob

 

[old regular]

Mud River

Dear Bro.Bob, I tried to post you a reply but once again it was some how lost.Maybe I used to many sentences.I have stated in the past that there are different doctrinal views among the old regulars and there really is two sides.This exist in the different associations and churches.for an example you belong to the Sardis but your doctrine is not the same as Isom Hannah.

 

[old regular]

IT Happened again Itried to write a reply and it was lost again when I went to post it .Maybe I should try to reach you Bro. Bob By some other means.We also should look into our forefathers historical positions on absolute predestination and Arminism.Maybe we could figure out who if any is holding to the original doctrine of ORB. Bro.Slone

 

[old regular]

Mud River

Bro.Bob How many members did the Sardis have when they dropped Mud River? How many do they Have now? All I was saying earlier that Light and Life are both Christ same as the way the truth are also.I wrote to you several scriptures but every time try to post them it fails.I have preached in all but two associations which use Old Regular in their title. Neither of these in corespondence with you I have preached in Churches in all your corresponding assns. But I don't remember you. SGA has nothing to do with Ermel Isom .SGA history is on one of the ORB sites.

 

[Brother Bob]

Isom Hannah

Brother Isom was one of our highly esteemed brethern and you say my doctrine is not the same as his. Well I don't know any two brothers who agree on everything and if you don't remember me that is alright too for I don't remember you either. I remember a Slone but not sure it was you but will find out. If you don't know me then how can you say Brother Isom's doctrine is different than mine. I was with his son-in-law last Sat in a funeral. I was with brother Isom for years before he died. I can tell you this, all the Associations loved brother Isom Hannah but some of his doctrine they didn't like.

Membership? I don't know anyone who has not declined in numbers over the last few years and there is a reason for that too and its not the Gospel but its we don't build
gymnasiums or a band with drums and "get down" music, I think, but who really knows. Maybe its a fulfillment of the Scriptures.

 

[Brother Bob]

Scripture

Is the following Scripture and if so, where?

"They shall say amen to their own condemnation".

 

[old regular]

Isom Hannah

Brother Bob the only thing I know about your doctrine, is what you have stated on the Baptist Board.I knew that Bro.Hannah preached and believed in predestination, maybe you believe in election and predestination maybe I judged you to quickly,If I have I am very sorry. I would like for you to explain your own views on the doctrine of election by Grace. P.S I see your face almost every Sunday night on one of our pews,The Blesed Hope Church has one of your song books, even though they preach what the NNS calls hard doctrine.I would like to meet you sometime, I am sure there is more we will agree on then disagree. Bro.Slone

 

[Brother Bob]

Predestination

Bro Slone;
Glad to hear you have a good song book. I have been publishing since 1990 and my books are all over all the Associations now. As you probably know the song book published by Foster Ratliff and sold by Brother C B Smith is still in circulation but Brother CB told me he was thinking about quiting. Most of the Associations won't let him sale his books no more of which I am against such action.

Now concerning election, I sure we disagree for that is mostly why you left the Northern New Salem and started the SGA with Fred Charles but probaby we agree on the rest. I certainly agree on the dress code, the singing, foot washing and Communion except we use the grape juice but you already know that. Probaby we agree on doctrine for I have many many friends who are Primitive Baptist. I live right in the mist of Mates Creek and their Association Moderator is my first cousin, Randall Thornsbury.
I believe that all men can go to Heaven if they will repent. I do not believe a man can save himself. I do not believe the Law can save someone but do believe it is still a schoolmaster and we are made free from the Law when we are born again. I believe Jesus stands at the door of the hearts of men and strives with them to believe in Him. When I was a sinner I knew if I died in that condition Hell would be my home. I cried mightly unto the Lord and He heard my cry blood cleansed me. Salvation is of the Lord and no one else. I also believe in once saved always saved for I believe if He can save me He certainly deliver me unto the end. I am not of those who believe a man can be saved and then murder someone, ask for forgiveness and all is well. I believe if it were possible for him to taste of the good fruits of the Lord and if he were to fall to renew him unto repentance again is impossible. I believe the Grace of God that bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men, teaching them to deny ungodliness and worldly lust that he should live soberly and righteously in this present world looking for that blessed hope and glorious appearing of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ who had redeemed us from all eniquity and purified unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. If I go on they won't let me post. raying:

Bro Bob

 

[Brother Bob]

old regular

This is why Sardis split from Primitive and New Salem followed suit the following year and dropped Mates Creek also. I think Sardis and Mates Creek presented a letter in 1894 to New Salem and Union and they rejected Mates Creek for same reason as Sardis and accepted Sardis. Anyway, Sardis was part of Mates Creek until the split in 1893.

RECORD OF THE SARDIS ASSOCIATION​

Organized in the year 1893 upon the following Faith, to wit:

We, the Churches of Jesus Christ of Regular Baptist, are consti­tuted on the following Faith:

1st: We believe in only one true and living God, the Creator of the heavens and earth and all things that are therein contained.

2nd: We believe in Jesus Christ, the Eternal Son of God, who is Head and King of His Church.

3rd: We believe in the Holy Ghost, the sealer and applier of the redemption purchased by Christ.

4th: We believe in the Father; Son and Holy Ghost and these three are One.

5th: We believe the Scripture of the Old and New Testaments to be the infallible Word of God and take it for our only rule of faith and practice and nothing is to be added to it or taken from it.
6th: We believe in the free atonement of Jesus Christ and that He tasted death for every man and that salvation is offered to all men and women upon the terms of the Gospel.

7th: We believe that repentance and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ are necessary previous to baptism, and that by immersion is the only right way of administering the ordinance.

8th: We believe that Christ has but one true Gospel Church and that it will finally persevere through grace to eternal glory.

9th: We believe in the Communion of the Lord's Supper, that is, taking of the bread and wine, by the Church of Jesus Christ in commemoration of the death and suffering of the Son of God until His Second Coming.

10th: We believe that feet washing is an ordinance of Jesus Christ and ought to be observed and kept up by His Church until His Second Coming.

11th: We believe that Jesus Christ is the first resurrection from the dead and that He lives forever.
12th: We believe in the resurrection of the just and unjust.

13th: We believe in the final punishment of the wicked and in the eternal happiness of the righteous.

We, the Regular Baptist Churches of Jesus Christ, composed of duly authorized delegates and members from the Brushy Fork, Sardis and Big Branch Churches, convened with the Brushy Fork Church on August 5, 1893 and organized by electing W.W. Fields, Moderator; and P.D. Bevins, Clerk.

Upon motion, the Moderator appointed Brothers G.W. May­nard and W.L. Smith as Committee to report the order of business for this day. The report of said Committee was read, approved and the Committee discharged.

Upon motion and second, the Association declared the follow­ing to be the reasons for founding a new Association and they, in like manner, adopted the annexed Constitution and Articles of Faith.

We, the Regular Baptist Church of Jesus Christ, convened with the Brushy Fork Church and composed as a working body for the transaction of business of duly authorized delegates from the Big Branch, Sardis and Brushy Fork Churches, deeming it necessary on account of a material difference of opinion existing between our­selves and other Brethren of the Mates Creek Churches to organize an Association separate and apart from our differing and yet highly esteemed Brethren in which we may live in harmony and perfect unison with each other.

NOW, BE IT KNOWN, in the presence of these witnesses and before Almighty God, the Supreme Judge of the World and all our actions:

First: That we do not object to the outline of Doctrine as we understand it to have been written in the different Constitutions of the Churches composing the Mates Creek Association.

Second: That while we believe no one independent of God's Almighty Power can be instrumental in the salvation of his soul, we do believe that man is responsible for his deeds, which thing we understand our Mates Creek Brethren to deny.

Third: That we object to the Doctrine held by our Mates Creek Brethren that man as a created being is compelled by God Eternal in all things to do just as he does, whether it be good or evil.
Fourth: We believe that man in the Creation was given limited power and that good and evil were set before him with the possibility of his choosing either. Therefore, we believe that when Adam par­took of evil he did so not by compulsion but by choice, which thing we also understand our Mates Creek Brethren to deny.

Therefore, these things being essential in regard to the prosper­ity of the Church, and as members holding these different views cannot possibly live in true Brotherly love within the same Associa­tion, we thought it better both for our Absolute Predestination Brethren and ourselves that we organize a separate Association. Not that we object to the original Doctrine of the Mates Creek Associa­tion but that we believe that our Predestination Brethren have departed from these same Doctrines.

But to them and all others be it understood, with God as our Judge, that it is with malice toward none that we withdraw from the Mates Creek Association and adopt the following Constitution for our Church government, together with the foregoing Articles of Faith for each of the Churches composing our Body:

 

[old regular]

History

Brother Bob, Thanks for your answer and the history you may want to review pages 24 and 25 of this website and comment.We still hold to the doctrinal boundries set by the New Salem in 1892 this statement set the stage for the Old Regulars identy from the Baptist Associations around them."Resolved, that we drop the nineteenth item of our last years minutes and advise our churches to cleanse, or abstain from the doctrine that teaches that God is the author of sin, or that He influences men therto,and the doctrine of Arminianism that claims the work of the creature(man)to be essential to eternal salvation."

 

[old regular]

Leaving the NNS

While I didn't go along with some of the things NNS tolerated to be preached like the whole world faith doctrine when the Bible taught all men have not faith, they really did not charge me with any hersey as I didn't preach anything that I could not support.Our leaving had more to do with lies being told ,Elders permitted to do such with out rebuke , the association not going by her own consitiution,when it came to me ,also the rules of decorum could be violated while i was speaking with no censure from the moderator.The wine issue just broke the dam, we had asked them to reprint historical statements concerning arminian doctrine, they refused saying they were the now regular baptist and that was the old brethern.We would have gladly went to the Union or New Salem but we were told they would kill our churches before they would let us go.We tried to go but they refused.Seeing that our churches being there would continue to disturb our peace and theirs. We left a lot of people we still love dearly.bro.slone

 

[Brother Bob]

Nns

Brother Mike:
I am sure you did and I am sorry for your past troubles. I have had them too and they can cause you to spend a many sleepless nights. It is really not my business and I don't want to accuse you of anything. I am very good friends with the Northern leaders and know about the situation but that is between you and them.

I do have a question for you that I do not understand on your doctrine and wondered if you espoused it when you were with us. You posted it back on 24 or 25 or somewhere back and is as follows:

There is not much difference they both came from the same original associations.In doctrine they are very close,however the Old Regulars do vary with some Primitive Baptist on the non-elect,they believe that the Love of Truth or some manifestation of God is present before the non-elect and they recieve not the Love of truth,and they won't come to the light,and they don't believe in Christ so the Gospel has no effect on them but God is manifested for judgement purposes and this finds them the non-elect judged and guilty themselves for unbelief and they will have to say amen to their own condemnation.They believe that Gods election is the only cause for any of Adams Race being saved,but election or God can not be blamed for the unbelievers final fate that man is responsible for his actions. While the condemnation they recieve was ordained of old they themselves were not predestinated nor elected for Hell and the lake of fire

(how could it be that a man is not chosen as the elect before the world began and there are two places that will hold the whole human race, then that only leaves he will go to Hell and the Lake, then how can that not be "predestination"?)

Also, "if you die in your sins where I am you cannot come". How can you turn that completely around where you are saved and then repent. I sincerely do not understand.

Do you have a copy of the article that was removed in 1892. In 1893 New Salem refused letters of correspondence because they said they were in such an uproar themselves. I can only surmise that it was about Mates Creek and Sardis for the following year there was no mention of Mates Creek but Sardis's letter was received. I assume also that New Salem and Union agreed with the doctrine of the Sardis at that time which is that a man must repent of his sins. Of course we don't believe a man can do anything on his own, including breating but the Lord is striving with him and man lets the Spirit lead him to Salvation. We also believe that God strives with all men as the Scripture says "that time and chance has happened to all".

All men have not faith; We attribute that to men have their conscious burned with a heart iron and turned over to a hardness of heart, reprobative mind to believe a lie and be damned. (unto every man is dealt a measure of faith).

blessings,

BBob

 

[old regular]

New Salem

Brother Bob, How do you get to post long paragraphs? It always looses mine .We donot agree on every man being delt a measure of faith. that every man in that chapter was in the body, faith is one of the fruit of the spirt, you can not have an appple without the tree.You can't have faith without the spirt even the spirt of faith .That scripture is being taken out of context it would be just as sound to say allmen have not faith so nobody on earth has faith because it says all.All And every are often used in a restricted since.

 

[old regular]

Dear, brother Bob Ihave spent 2 hours typing you answers to your questions just to get kicked off the web site and all my discources lost maybe I shoul write you a letter and send it in the mail.New Salem item 19 1891 "resolved that we the new salem association, cannot endorse the sentiment teaching the absolute predestination of all things,held and preached by some of our brethern,which declares God to bethe author of sin,or that he influences men thereto"

 

[Brother Bob]

Brother Mike;
I don't know what you are doing different than I am unless they give members who are 1000 posts more bandwidth.

New Salem item 19 1891 "resolved that we the new salem association, cannot endorse the sentiment teaching the absolute predestination of all things,held and preached by some of our brethern,which declares God to be the author of sin,or that he influences men thereto"

Bro. Mike;
I don't see where it says anything about (or that He influences men therto,and the doctrine of Arminianism that claims the work of the creature(man)to be essential to eternal salvation.")

Have not faith? Well Brother Mike I don't know how a person could come to God if he didn't know there was one and repentance is required at the hands of all men. Also He hath purchased every man with His blood. I certainly can see how some go the route of predestination but I just don't believe that is what the Bible teaches. Of course there is predestination but I believe it to be the coming of Christ, his apostles and even John the Baptist and others but not all mankind. I think the predestinated brothers want it both ways. They do not want to say some were predestinated for hell but after they explain what the "elect" is there is no other explaination left. The keep going around and around trying to say man is responsible for his sins but turn right around and say there was nothing else he could do. I truly believe all that are going to Heaven are the "elect", but we that were not in the plan become the elect when born again and God chooses us "out of the world". I believe Israel was God's chosen people and if the Scripture had of stopped before the Middle Wall was broken down then Peter was right and we did not have a right to the tree of life. I thank God after Jesus rose from the dead He said: "now go ye into all the world and preach the Gospel to every creature and he that believeth and is baptized shall be saved".

I don't know how you could have faith in the body and not involve the spirit. Without the spirit the body is dead.

When I first started getting interested in church I went to a funeral in Mates Creek and heard a Elder named Teddy Ball preach that there would babies in hell no bigger than the span of his hand, that was enough for me.

Brother Isom Hannah; We all knew that brother Isom got pretty hard at times but he did not advocate it in the stand or he would of been in trouble. I have heard him touch on things that came right up to the line and maybe cross it some but he never pushed it. Brother Isom was indeed a deep scripture brother that I disagreed with on some things such as in Rev;, but I loved him and for the most part agreed with him. New Salem just had a brother die who got pretty close to hard doctrine at times and the New Salem had began to talk about it. I went to his funeral, it was Brother Monroe Jones.

bless,

BBob

 

[Brother Bob]

Thread

Brother Mike;
We are taking their thread and it is not considered Kosher so I guess we need to get back to "history" don't you think?

BBob