Old Testament Value

[JesusFan]

That was decided later by the Fathers of the church, but probably was not a factor when Luke did his writing.

Do not a Bible with me right now, but was sure that paul quoted isaiah and Luke in same passage, which would mean that both were viewed as being inspired by God!

Maybe the verse about muzzling the Oxen, person to get paid passage?

 

[JesusFan]

Well then why do you carry a bible with the OT in it?

because its part of the inspired canon of scriptures, and because per the NT it was written to us for instruction/teaching/illustrating of the principles of God!

We though do have progressive revelation, and are now no longer under OT law, but under NT Grace!

We do need to know the OT background to the NT, as the NT completes fulfills fully the shadowy outlines of messiah and age to come in the OT!

Use it to read and understand what the NT writers were meaning by what they wrote, as scripture does interprete scripture!

 

[freeatlast]

because its part of the inspired canon of scriptures, and because per the NT it was written to us for instruction/teaching/illustrating of the principles of God!

We though do have progressive revelation, and are now no longer under OT law, but under NT Grace!

We do need to know the OT background to the NT, as the NT completes fulfills fully the shadowy outlines of messiah and age to come in the OT!

Use it to read and understand what the NT writers were meaning by what they wrote, as scripture does interprete scripture!

Also the things in the OT are not completed as you suggested. There is still things in it yet to come.

 

[JesusFan]

Also the things in the OT are not completed as you suggested. There is still things in it yet to come.

that would be under the heading of the Second Coming/Millinium/Final state!

All that God for you and me for today is under the new Covenant!

 

[J.D.]

Many young Christians are of the opinion the Old Testament, while important, is not much more than history. While a vital part of the entire Bible, many have come to more or less simply discount it away.

But wait a minute. We're told in 2nd Timothy 3:16, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

On the day of Pentacost, what scripture was being provided to those who were hearing the Word of God? What scripture was being put forth by the Apostles? Well, of course, it was the Old Testament, along with their first hand testimonies of the teachings of Jesus.

When Peter arose to address the crowd, he taught from the Old Testament. He referenced the Prophet Joel. When Philip was caught up to minister to the Ethiopian Eunuch, the testimony came from the book of Isiah.

Accordingly, the Scripture comment referenced in 2nd Timothy 3:16 is to include the Old Testament. As the Bible did not come together until much later it's quite obviouse the only Scripture the Aposotles had at their disposal was the Old Testament.

Young Christians need to realize the Old Testament is much, much more than just a history book. The Old Testament is just as vital to us today as it was to the Apostles back in their day.

I don't know what your eschatological views are but you sound like someone that is beginning to awaken out of the half-darkness of dispensationalism.

 

[JesusFan]

Many young Christians are of the opinion the Old Testament, while important, is not much more than history. While a vital part of the entire Bible, many have come to more or less simply discount it away.

But wait a minute. We're told in 2nd Timothy 3:16, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness."

On the day of Pentacost, what scripture was being provided to those who were hearing the Word of God? What scripture was being put forth by the Apostles? Well, of course, it was the Old Testament, along with their first hand testimonies of the teachings of Jesus.

When Peter arose to address the crowd, he taught from the Old Testament. He referenced the Prophet Joel. When Philip was caught up to minister to the Ethiopian Eunuch, the testimony came from the book of Isiah.

Accordingly, the Scripture comment referenced in 2nd Timothy 3:16 is to include the Old Testament. As the Bible did not come together until much later it's quite obviouse the only Scripture the Aposotles had at their disposal was the Old Testament.

Young Christians need to realize the Old Testament is much, much more than just a history book. The Old Testament is just as vital to us today as it was to the Apostles back in their day.

just as vital to us in the new Covenant, as it is the "textbook" to us to interprete the new Covenant by, its just that there is progressive revelation from God, and though ALL of the OT is inspired by God, not ALL of it is applicable to us for today, as it was under the Old Coventant!

 

[freeatlast]

that would be under the heading of the Second Coming/Millinium/Final state!

All that God for you and me for today is under the new Covenant!

No it is under the OT. I gave the evidence and you skipped over it. You will not find those in the NT.

 

[beameup]

I see there is disagreement with free´s statement of the truth, but he is correct. The disagreement stems from the wrong look at what the Bible is!

During Paul's ministry, the "Bible" was the Old Testament. If you read Paul's Epistles to Timothy you will see that the purpose of the O.T. was to reveal the prophecies
concerning Messiah [1 Tim 1:18]. Nowhere in the O.T. is the "Church" revealed. The "Church" mystery was revealed to Paul. That is why Paul's Epistles are "foundational" to Christians.

1 Cor 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon.

Now that the New Testament is complete, and now that we have Paul's FOUNDATIONAL Epistles, then the O.T. takes on a different "role" to the Church in this present age of Grace.
Without a strong FOUNDATION from Paul's Epistles and proper prioritizing of the O.T., all kinds of heresies spring up such as teaching that the Church has somehow "replaced" (genetic) Israel.
[see Rom ch 9,10,11]

 

[glfredrick]

Do not a Bible with me right now, but was sure that paul quoted isaiah and Luke in same passage, which would mean that both were viewed as being inspired by God!

Maybe the verse about muzzling the Oxen, person to get paid passage?

You do know that Luke traveled with Paul, right? That may have some bearing on what either of the two wrote, Holy Spirit notwithstanding (of course, everything written was under the inspiration of...).

 

[HAMel]

I don't know what your eschatological views are but you sound like someone that is beginning to awaken out of the half-darkness of dispensationalism.

I'm going to leave all the doctrinal issue to all the folks with the alphabet soup behind their names.

What I do know is the Lord told me to follow Him. Each and every time I attend church I come away with another perfect example of the infinity of our God and He will show me what I need to know.

In the meantime, Christians should encourage the younger converts to consider the Old Testament just as valuable as the New Testament so as to encourage their daily growth regarding that infinity I just spoke of, if for no other reason than to broaden their horizons.

I stand in awe! The God of the universe who has always been and who always will..., reached down in 1972 and spoke to little 'ole me. Ask me if I was impressed.

 

[OldRegular]

That is where you are wrong. The OT has not been fulfilled. Only parts of what it says has been fulfilled. The rest is coming.

Don't know where you are headed but you are correct in part. The Prophet Isaiah speaks of the New heavens and New Earth as does the Book of Revelation.

Isaiah 65:17 KJV
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:1,2 KJV
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

All this to take place when the LORD returns in Power and Great Glory.

Also the Prophet Daniel speaks of the general resurrection as does our Savior in John 5:28, 29.

 

[freeatlast]

Don't know where you are headed but you are correct in part. The Prophet Isaiah speaks of the New heavens and New Earth as does the Book of Revelation.

Isaiah 65:17 KJV
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:1,2 KJV
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

All this to take place when the LORD returns in Power and Great Glory.

Also the Prophet Daniel speaks of the general resurrection as does our Savior in John 5:28, 29.

That was in response to JF and a statement he made about the OT being totally fulfilled and it is not for today. Not an exact quote but in the neighborhood. I gave him a short list of things not fullfilled yet in the OT but one day would be;
Here is Just a few;
Abrahamic Covenant
Mosaic Covenant
The Palestinian Covenant
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Davidic Covenant
[/FONT]

 

[convicted1]

Don't know where you are headed but you are correct in part. The Prophet Isaiah speaks of the New heavens and New Earth as does the Book of Revelation.

Isaiah 65:17 KJV
For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Revelation 21:1,2 KJV
1. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

All this to take place when the LORD returns in Power and Great Glory.

Also the Prophet Daniel speaks of the general resurrection as does our Savior in John 5:28, 29.

The OT may not have been fulfilled, but the Law has. We read the OT to see how God dealt with mankind naturally. In the NT, we see how He deals with mankind Spiritually. We can not live by the OT, and/or Law, but we can glean from them.

 

[Old Union Brother]

The OT may not have been fulfilled, but the Law has. We read the OT to see how God dealt with mankind naturally. In the NT, we see how He deals with mankind Spiritually. We can not live by the OT, and/or Law, but we can glean from them.

and:

(Gal 3:23) But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

(Gal 3:24) Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

(Gal 3:25) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

 

[JesusFan]

That was in response to JF and a statement he made about the OT being totally fulfilled and it is not for today. Not an exact quote but in the neighborhood. I gave him a short list of things not fullfilled yet in the OT but one day would be;
Here is Just a few;
Abrahamic Covenant
Mosaic Covenant
The Palestinian Covenant
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]Davidic Covenant
[/FONT]

Actually, only things left for God to wrap up now in this New Covenat age will be the rapture/second coming, set up jesus Kingdom fully on this earth, then the final Eternal State!

For us as Christians, all that we will need is under the new Covent between us and God in effect now!

 

[glfredrick]

Actually, only things left for God to wrap up now in this New Covenat age will be the rapture/second coming, set up jesus Kingdom fully on this earth, then the final Eternal State!

For us as Christians, all that we will need is under the new Covent between us and God in effect now!

Agreed in concept, but what does that statement have to do with or against the OT?

 

[JesusFan]

Agreed in concept, but what does that statement have to do with or against the OT?

Just was clarifying why i tend to see the OT in light of NOT having us still do Law, but to see it for principles/examples etc tous for today!

 

[glfredrick]

Just was clarifying why i tend to see the OT in light of NOT having us still do Law, but to see it for principles/examples etc tous for today!

That is a flawed and inconsequential view of the OT.

In fact, EVERY tenet of the OT is still in active force. The only difference for those of us living in the New Covenant is that One came who perfectly fulfilled the mandates of the OT both actively and passively so that we could be imputed His righteousness. Proper understanding of this important issue needs to be part and parcel of our own theology so that we do not go amiss of God and God's (never improperly divided!) Word.

 

[JesusFan]

That is a flawed and inconsequential view of the OT.

In fact, EVERY tenet of the OT is still in active force. The only difference for those of us living in the New Covenant is that One came who perfectly fulfilled the mandates of the OT both actively and passively so that we could be imputed His righteousness. Proper understanding of this important issue needs to be part and parcel of our own theology so that we do not go amiss of God and God's (never improperly divided!) Word.

NOT the OT law in force though fir us under the new Covenant!

the OT is to be seen in light of the Cross/Messiah, and we do use it for theology/principles/examples in order to better interprete the NT...

BUT

It was all inspired by god, not directly applicapable though for us today!

 

[glfredrick]

NOT the OT law in force though fir us under the new Covenant!

the OT is to be seen in light of the Cross/Messiah, and we do use it for theology/principles/examples in order to better interprete the NT...

BUT

It was all inspired by god, not directly applicapable though for us today!

You have just offered a weak view of the OT, and one often shared by many who teach about that issue. I've heard that mantra repeated time and again and it leads to liberal anti-nomianism at the end of the day. Not that you are there or heading there, but that is what happens after decades of emphasis that the OT is only a good example, similar in kind to the thought that Christ is only a good example.

No, the ENTIRE OT MUST be fulfilled to satisfy the God who is neither divided nor ever changes. That WE cannot fulfill it is a given. That Christ perfectly fulfilled it on our behalf is part and parcel of the good news of the gospel!