-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Omnibenevolent God Creating Hell?
- Thread starter Benjamin
- Start date
Image and likeness are two different things? You jest?
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness... Means the same thing. Gen 1:26.
...When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Gen 5:1.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image...
When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness... Gen 5:3.
Where's the problem Helen?
John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
It arrived with Jesus your argument fails. To be transformed into the image and likeness of God. Image and likeness are alike, or as I would say 'They are the image of each other'. Identical even.
Those transformed have had their dead spirits made alive and then we have to do with our characters.
john.
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness... Means the same thing. Gen 1:26.
...When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. Gen 5:1.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image...
When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness... Gen 5:3.
Where's the problem Helen?
He says nothing of the sort. What He says is that the time is coming when we will worship in Spirit and truth.
John 4:23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."
It arrived with Jesus your argument fails. To be transformed into the image and likeness of God. Image and likeness are alike, or as I would say 'They are the image of each other'. Identical even.
Those transformed have had their dead spirits made alive and then we have to do with our characters.
john.
A dead spirit simply means a spirit separated from God. It does not mean an unconscious spirit, or hell would have no meaning. All men have spirits. Some are alive, meaning in God's family and some are dead, meaning apart from God. None are unconscious. Thus all are still made in the image of God.
"made according to our image and likeness" means that Adam had both spirit, in the image of God, and likeness, in a character which was created without sin or defect of any kind.
We lost the likeness. That is part of the transformation which takes place in the life of a born again believer as he or she is transformed by the Holy Spirit into the likeness of Christ, the SECOND Adam.
But none of us is without spirit, for we all are created in the image of God as human beings.
When Adam had a son in his likeness, that child was born with the defect of a sin nature. However he, and the rest of us, are still, as spiritual beings, created in the image of God.
"made according to our image and likeness" means that Adam had both spirit, in the image of God, and likeness, in a character which was created without sin or defect of any kind.
We lost the likeness. That is part of the transformation which takes place in the life of a born again believer as he or she is transformed by the Holy Spirit into the likeness of Christ, the SECOND Adam.
But none of us is without spirit, for we all are created in the image of God as human beings.
When Adam had a son in his likeness, that child was born with the defect of a sin nature. However he, and the rest of us, are still, as spiritual beings, created in the image of God.
after the second birth to revitalize the image of God in man comes spiritual growth and we "are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord"
Interesting, the word for "changed" in 2 Corinthians 3:18 is (Grk - metamorphoo}.
HankD
Hell wasn't created for "MAN", but "Angels", it must "expand it's borders" in order to hold mankind.
Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself,
The "CHOICE" to eat of the "Tree of life" (Jesus) or the "Tree Good/Evil" still exist today,
It's an individual choice with an individual Judgment.
Gen 3:21 The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them.
Without being asked God sacrificed the first animal to clothe these two. The first pair saved by grace.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
And where did you find this elixir Me4Him? It isn't the tree of life is it, the tree of life is hidden? Have you found what God has hidden? No you have found something else that's all.
Gen 3:24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.
Steal it from under his nose did you? If you ever got near to the tree of life you would be in extreme danger from the guard set to guard it from us.
You are in error as the tree is hidden. Simple as that.
john.
Ge 2:9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Ge 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Ge 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a "FLAMING SWORD" which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
"Flaming Sword??
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD;
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,
Joh 1:14 And the Word (Flaming Sword) was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
"JESUS" is the "GIFT" that opens up the way for man to "eat" of the "TREE OF LIFE" again, and that "GIFT" is offer to as many as had their way blocked, (became sinners) God not being willing for any to perish.
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon [/b]all men unto justification[/b] of life.
You'll have to go through the "flaming Sword" to get to the "TREE OF LIFE".
"Symbols" and their definition are placed in the scripture so their "meaning" can "NEVER" change, I'd suggest learning them.
Ge 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Ge 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Ge 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a "FLAMING SWORD" which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
"Flaming Sword??
Jer 23:29 Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD;
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword,
Joh 1:14 And the Word (Flaming Sword) was made flesh, and dwelt among us,
"JESUS" is the "GIFT" that opens up the way for man to "eat" of the "TREE OF LIFE" again, and that "GIFT" is offer to as many as had their way blocked, (became sinners) God not being willing for any to perish.
Ro 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon [/b]all men unto justification[/b] of life.
You'll have to go through the "flaming Sword" to get to the "TREE OF LIFE".
"Symbols" and their definition are placed in the scripture so their "meaning" can "NEVER" change, I'd suggest learning them.
Hello Me4Him.
...now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Ge 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a "FLAMING SWORD" which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.[/quote]
Your answer is more complicated than the question. Could you let me know if God hid the tree of life or did not hide the tree of life please.
john.
...now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Ge 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a "FLAMING SWORD" which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.[/quote]
Your answer is more complicated than the question. Could you let me know if God hid the tree of life or did not hide the tree of life please.
Why is he guarding it? Is it 'lest' we take of the tree?
john.
(Gen 3:24) So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
(Joh 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(Pro 6:23) For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
(Pro 12:28) In the way of righteousness is life; and in the pathway thereof there is no death.
(Pro 15:23) A man hath joy by the answer of his mouth: and a word spoken in due season, how good is it!
(Pro 15:24) The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
(Phi 2:10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
(Mat 7:7) Ask , and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find ; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
(Phi 2:11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come . And let him that heareth say, Come . And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
(Joh 14:6) Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
(Pro 6:23) For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:
(Pro 12:28) In the way of righteousness is life; and in the pathway thereof there is no death.
(Pro 15:23) A man hath joy by the answer of his mouth: and a word spoken in due season, how good is it!
(Pro 15:24) The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.
(Phi 2:10) That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
(Mat 7:7) Ask , and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find ; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
(Phi 2:11) And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
(Rev 22:17) And the Spirit and the bride say, Come . And let him that heareth say, Come . And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
While the words have somewhat similar meanings they are not synonyms.
Image has to to with form (metaphysical of course - intellect, emotion/sentience and will/agency). Adam/Eve had intelligence, namimg the animals for instance.
Likeness has to do with behavior, Adam/Eve were like God in at least one way in that they had "dominion" over creation, for instance.
HankD
Hello HankD.
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness... Means the same thing. Gen 1:26.
"Let us make man in our image, in our likeness
'in our image, in our likeness' denies such a difference of meaning.
Hello Benjamin.
(Gen 3:24) So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Did God hide the tree of life or not? It's a very simple question a yes or no will do please.
john.
Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness... Means the same thing. Gen 1:26.
"Let us make man in our image, in our likeness
'in our image, in our likeness' denies such a difference of meaning.
Scripture please.
Hello Benjamin.
(Gen 3:24) So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Did God hide the tree of life or not? It's a very simple question a yes or no will do please.
john.
Scripture please.
Hello Benjamin.
(Gen 3:24) So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
John 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Did God hide the tree of life or not? It's a very simple question a yes or no will do please.
john. </font>[/QUOTE]It's not a "SIMPLE QUESTION" as you suggest, an "Overall" understanding of God's plan must be understood, scripture/dogma can be based on one or two verses.
"JESUS IS THE "TREE OF LIFE".
Trees in scripture refers to "people"?
Mt 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree (person) is known by his fruit.
Jesus wasn't send into the world until the "Fourth day", as God planned.
Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, (Fourth day) God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Jesus and the church was a "Mystery" not revealed to Israel in the OT, "clues" about it are there, but only "clues".
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
But now the "tree of life" (Jesus) is made know to "ALL MEN".
Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, (Jesus/church) which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
But "NO MAN" comes to God except by Jesus, even the OT saints who died previous to Jesus, so he preached those already dead.
Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; (prisoners of sin)
1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
You have to "combine" both the OT/NT to get a clear understanding of scripture.
johnp asks
Image - Hebrew tselem Strong's 6754
Meaning: 1) image 1a) images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods) 1b) image, likeness (of resemblance) 1c) mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)
Origin: from an unused root meaning to shade; TWOT - 1923a; n m
Usage: AV - image 16, vain shew 1; 17
likeness Hebrew demuwth Strong's 1823
Meaning: n f 1) likeness, similitude adv 2) in the likeness of, like as
Origin: from 01819; TWOT - 437a
Usage: AV - likeness 19, similitude 2, like 2, manner 1, fashion 1; 25
Adam had intelligence, he named the animals:
Genesis 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
Adam had a will, he disobeyed God:
Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
He had Emotion:
Genesis 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Adam was like God in that he was to rule over the earth:
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
As far as I know, the Scripture does not define the meaning of "image" and "likeness" in relation to man in explicit Scripture apart from Genesis 1.
But if you (or anyone else) disagree(s) with my Scriptures and the human connection with His "image" (Heb. tselem) and "likeness" (Heb. demuwth), I would be interested to see your definition(s) and the Scriptures you use to make the connection.
Thanks.
HankD
OK, these are self-evident qualities of which I pointed to what I feel are the appropriate Scriptures to make the human connection between the "image" and "likeness" of God.
Image - Hebrew tselem Strong's 6754
Meaning: 1) image 1a) images (of tumours, mice, heathen gods) 1b) image, likeness (of resemblance) 1c) mere, empty, image, semblance (fig.)
Origin: from an unused root meaning to shade; TWOT - 1923a; n m
Usage: AV - image 16, vain shew 1; 17
likeness Hebrew demuwth Strong's 1823
Meaning: n f 1) likeness, similitude adv 2) in the likeness of, like as
Origin: from 01819; TWOT - 437a
Usage: AV - likeness 19, similitude 2, like 2, manner 1, fashion 1; 25
Adam had intelligence, he named the animals:
Genesis 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him.
Adam had a will, he disobeyed God:
Genesis 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
He had Emotion:
Genesis 3:10 And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Adam was like God in that he was to rule over the earth:
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
As far as I know, the Scripture does not define the meaning of "image" and "likeness" in relation to man in explicit Scripture apart from Genesis 1.
But if you (or anyone else) disagree(s) with my Scriptures and the human connection with His "image" (Heb. tselem) and "likeness" (Heb. demuwth), I would be interested to see your definition(s) and the Scriptures you use to make the connection.
Thanks.
HankD
Hello Benjamin.
I'll put it another way if you like. Does it say in Genesis 3:22 that God hid the tree of life or not. Yea or nay?
Does it say that after God drove man out of the Garden of Eden He put a guard with a flaming sword to stop people from gaining access to the tree? I mean does it say that or not? Regardless of doctrine does it say what it says or what?
Is it reasonable to somehow imagine that the Cherubim is there not to guard the way lest any man find and reachout his hand and take of it? Is that what guards do or is a guard used to guard things? Do guards guard?
Where did you learn your theology if you don't mind me asking. I would like to read up on what your teachers are saying.
The mystery is in being made one flesh with our Husband.
There's a scripture that contests your contention. All but two of the Exodus fell in the wilderness without being given any knowledge of Christ, without being given a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear is that not so? Or has He not yet given you the same? Ask and you will receive.
If the tree of life has been known to all men then why did God hide it? You say: But "NO MAN" comes to God except by Jesus, even the OT saints who died previous to Jesus, so he preached those already dead. Not according to Dt 29:2 He didn't did He? Not with ears to hear with.
RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
You are wrong. Not all have heard.
john.
I beg your pardon I will rephrase that. It is a simple question for any desiring to answer the question.
I'll put it another way if you like. Does it say in Genesis 3:22 that God hid the tree of life or not. Yea or nay?
Does it say that after God drove man out of the Garden of Eden He put a guard with a flaming sword to stop people from gaining access to the tree? I mean does it say that or not? Regardless of doctrine does it say what it says or what?
Is it reasonable to somehow imagine that the Cherubim is there not to guard the way lest any man find and reachout his hand and take of it? Is that what guards do or is a guard used to guard things? Do guards guard?
Must be? For what? But an understanding of the overall plan includes God hiding the tree of life from us doesn't it? If it doesn't then you know of something other than God's overall plan.
If I can guess at this statement, for it makes no sense to me, are you saying scripture/dogma can't be based on one or two verses?
Is He? And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and accept Christ, and live forever." Ok I believe you.
Always?
Where did you learn your theology if you don't mind me asking. I would like to read up on what your teachers are saying.
Expand on this please. Ga 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, (Fourth day)...
Eph 5:31 "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh." 32 This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church.
The mystery is in being made one flesh with our Husband.
Dt 29:2 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
There's a scripture that contests your contention. All but two of the Exodus fell in the wilderness without being given any knowledge of Christ, without being given a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear is that not so? Or has He not yet given you the same? Ask and you will receive.
If the tree of life has been known to all men then why did God hide it?
You say: But "NO MAN" comes to God except by Jesus, even the OT saints who died previous to Jesus, so he preached those already dead. Not according to Dt 29:2 He didn't did He? Not with ears to hear with.The gospel was being preached from the beginning of sin and has been proclaimed to less than all. PS 147:19 He has revealed his word to Jacob, his laws and decrees to Israel. 20 He has done this for no other nation; they do not know his laws.
RO 2:12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law...
You are wrong. Not all have heard.
Thank you for your advice but I would say you have to accept the clear meanings of words before a clear understanding can come.
john.
Hello Benjamin.
If my memory serves me well I think someone said we were in God's image and I said we were not and it went from there.
As I said it was a side issue. I suppose in one way we are not as originally designed. Adam was perfect yet we suffer the consquences of his actions. Is there benevolence in being weighted down by another's sins?
john.
If my memory serves me well I think someone said we were in God's image and I said we were not and it went from there.
I made my point that man needs to be transformed into the likeness of Christ therefore is not at the moment. I have been defending my position on that.
As I said it was a side issue. I suppose in one way we are not as originally designed. Adam was perfect yet we suffer the consquences of his actions. Is there benevolence in being weighted down by another's sins?
john.