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Omnibenevolent God Creating Hell?
- Thread starter Benjamin
- Start date
"IF" you're ignorant of the material I posted, and don't posses the "KNOWLEDGE" to refute it,
"HOW" can you be so certain your "belief" is correct???
"ignorance can't prove ignorance",
However
"knowledge can prove ignorance".
Get the "knowledge" first, then you'll recognize "ignorance".
Marcia
Active Member
I can't think of a single person who has ever ascribed a believe that God is "only" love. That would indeed be a damnable heresy, because, while God is love, and God loves all, God is not "only" love.
</font>[/QUOTE]Oh, man, I can think of tons and tons of people who believe and say this! Marianne Williamson for one. Neale Donald Walsch, James Redfield (all 3 of these have written several bestsellers), pretty much all people into New Age thinking, and even some Christians I've talked to who don't buy into hell.
I used to believe God was only love. People take the "God is love" quote and use that, and also use it to say that all love is God. Therefore, if you love you are doing the right thing, no matter who or how you love. This view is very common with many people. I address it a bit on p. 6 in my article on "The Piscean Jesus" (astrological and New Age views of Jesus) at http://cana.userworld.com/cana_pisean6.html
Since the New Spirituality (what I tend to call New Age now) denies or redefines sin, then there can be no wrath on sin because there is no sin! I also address this issue in my article on New Age views of sin and salvation, "God in the Mirror":
http://cana.userworld.com/cana_GodMirror1.html
I think that Christians today are talking less about or shying away from the topic of God's wrath on sin. When we do that, we undermine the sacrifice Jesus made on the cross in our behalf. It's not that we should talk only about that, but that has to be a part of the gospel message or the whole message is cut in half. God's holiness demands a penalty of death on sin -- there is no good way to leave that out in order to explain why Jesus came and died.
John,
I don’t consider myself much of a theologian, haven’t even read a complete theology book. Reading is very difficult and slow for me as my mind races and jumps around from thought to thought, probably a form of ADD or something like it which also contributed to severe speech impediment for the first 11+ years of my life and limited elementary education only. I’m making progress though as I figure out my wiring.
I get by searching out subjects, comments, and opinions, then prayerfully read and compare the scriptures going where they take me; I think my time is better spent that way for now. I’m not as much of respecter of teachers as I am the hearts of those who share the Word and let me think for myself what the Bible is teaching.
Anyway, like I previously said, I’m fairly new to the C/A debate and frankly I’m very dismayed with both systems. Lately, I’ve been reading about Molinism; it is a very difficult and complicated system to grasp, at least for me, but it logically suggests answering many of the controversies of how we can have both freewill and a sovereign God, including perseverance, which I feel the Bible teaches.
[ January 19, 2006, 01:50 AM: Message edited by: Benjamin ]
That's because you have the wrong theology Benjamin, with respect. When you have the right theology you become a big head like me. It is God who opens the eyes of men born blind.
Don't blame you. But it is a mistake because Jesus told us to make disciples and disciples learn from their teachers and their teachers from theirs and so on back. The truth will be found only in the bible. If it isn't in there it isn't worth it. Theologians are the map that indicates where the treasure is. What treasure you seek will be the map that you follow.You are after this fabled God who is not the God of the bible. The God of wrath is real. He tells us that He hates some people and He is going to get them. It doesn't matter what we think about that it makes no difference to Him. He asks, "What you going to do about it?"
There is no controversy, the bible stops all controversy. If Molinism claims that it can join together faith and works then I am astonished that your logic accepts the illogical that's for sure. You are not far from Catholicism, Luis Molina was a Jesuit. You will find that it is man in this system, as in all other systems of religion, that instigates the originating impulse. Man must before God helps. God is my Saviour.
Sovereignty resides in the choosing.
It isn't logical to hold to one point of Calvinism. If one falls they all fall. In fact everlasting security can never be assured with free will because you will forever have to exercise it to stay in His good books or lose your free will. Is there something about you that makes you think you can do better than Adam?
Your lack education is no barrier. I left school at 15 with no qualifications unless survival counts.
Your writing is clear and tidy.john.
Marcia
Active Member
Never heard of them. I was actually referring to folks who post on this board, and/or Christains with whom I associate/fellowship. </font>[/QUOTE]Just fyi, Redfield's _The Celestine Prophecy_ was on the bestseller lists for about 3 yrs. , I believe, and is being made into a movie that is supposed to come out later this year.
Walsch's Conversations with God books were also all bestsellers. He also wrote Conversations with God for Teens which was actually sent to Christian schools around the country who did not know who Walsch was, apparently. They soon discovered this was not a book they wanted the kids to read! I got a lot of email on that one.
I have articles on several of Walsch's books on my site, and on one by Redfield.
Marianne Williamson got a big boost from Oprah and her Return to Love was a bestseller, as were subsequent books.
A lot of Christians do not know these books or authors but the world is reading them.
But JohnV, I've had discussions with Christians who try to explain away hell because it makes them uncomfortable and they just can't imagine how "a loving God could send people to hell." This has not been an unusual experience for me. It leads them to lean toward or adopt inclusivism, universalism, or annihilationism. I think this is one reason inclusivism is getting more popular in the church -- even here on the BB several defended it when this topic was discussed last month.
No Sir, I do not follow fables, why are you so hypocritical? I follow God’s Word in truth not the philosophies of man nor do I idolize men such as Calvin.
(Col 2:8) Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
I’m not under any illusion about God not having wrath. The difference is you have been blinded by doctrine and think God as evil. A little advise for you:
(Eph 4:14) That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
(Eph 4:15) But speaking the truth in love , may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
I didn’t say nor believe there are controversies in the Bible, rest assured the controversies are with false doctrines of man’s teachings that those with eyes to see can spot easily and know a lie when they hear it.
Your limitations on God’s sovereignty are set by Mr. Calvin, not God, that is sad. I let God be sovereign in His own way.
It isn’t logical to have your faith all bottled up in man’s system. Apparently you think you have it all figured out and Calvin is the answer. I guess we’ll have to disagree.
I’ve had discussions with people who say they must not be able to know God and don’t care to because He sends some to hell that have been predestined from the beginning and have no hope and they must be one of those. These same people knew quite a lot of scripture and were obviously searching with yet some hope but from what I got from them they had run into the bad news teachings of the Gospel and couldn’t get past it. In the same place I bumped into a few of these were some others reinforcing their belief that they had no hope because God didn’t love some. I’ve heard this same kind of talk right here on the BB and cringe at thought of one searching that may hear this type of doctrine and question the origin and pleasure in this distortion.
Pr 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
The trouble with being "Deceived" is that people don't realize they are "deceived", and Satan is the world's Greatest "Deceiver".
Ge 3:1 Now the serpent (Satan) was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.
Subtil,
1. capable of making or noticing fine distinctions in meanings
2. Marked by or requiring mental keenness
3. Delicately skillful or clever
4. Deft or ingenious
5. not open or direct, sly
6. Delicately suggestive,
7. not grossly obvious
8. working insidiously
9. not easily detected
When you stop preaching:
1. God loved the whole world
2. Jesus didn't come to condemn the world, but to save it
3. Died for sins of the whole world
4. the "free gift" is offered to as many as were made sinners
You've stopped preaching the Gospel.
I'm reminded of "OJ'S trial, when you have "no defense", throw up a "Smokescreen" with unrelated details to "confuse" the "facts",
and that's a good description of "total soveriegnty/predestination" where the offer of "salvation" is concerned.
Marcia
Active Member
Yes, I have had discussions with people like this as well. People who don't like the wrath of God on sin or don't understand God's righteousness tend to dislike the idea of hell. God doesn't send people there -- people who think their own ideas of what is fair and right will end up with themselves for eternity, since they are judging God. They chose themselves over God or they choose their idea of God over God.
One of the ways I got to the point of rejecting Christianity (I was not saved but had been going to church) was that I rejected the idea of hell. I thought it was harsh. But God's wrath on sin cannot change.
God loves the world (Jn 3.16) so much that he sent his son to die for them. Knowing about hell or God's wrath on sin can bring someone into conviction of his/her sin and need for Christ. Those who don't like this are rejecting the character of God and his righteousness. Romans talks the most about God's righteousness and the need for judgment on sin.
There will always be people who find something they don't like about God, Jesus, or the Bible so that they can rationalize rejecting it, whether it's hell or something else.
Hello Me4Him.
2. What a failure. Sad Jesus strikes out. The feeble Father pleads with man and Jesus came to save the world He does not pray for. The intercessor not interceding?
3. Of course He died for the sins of the whole world do not let scripture tell you otherwise. 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
4. 1 Peter 2:8 ..."A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.
Dt 29:4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
john.
1. The world He does not pray for? John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours.
2. What a failure. Sad Jesus strikes out. The feeble Father pleads with man and Jesus came to save the world He does not pray for. The intercessor not interceding?
3. Of course He died for the sins of the whole world do not let scripture tell you otherwise. 1 Sam 3:14 Therefore, I swore to the house of Eli, `The guilt of Eli's house will never be atoned for by sacrifice or offering.' "
4. 1 Peter 2:8 ..."A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for.
Dt 29:4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
john.
Hello Benjamin.
john.
Is that so? Just more people like you who do not accept the truth that's all. What happens to you if they arrive in Heaven and you don't?
Water off a duck's back man I don't take offence. Show me where I have been hypocritical please. I use scripture not the words of man show me where I have used the words of men.
Wrath is part of His omnibenevolence then is it? You have changed your position. How can He be all kind and yet invent Hell? The question is still yours to answer.
How you can say this after I say God does as He pleases is quite beyond me.
john.
Is that so? Just more people like you who do not accept the truth that's all. What happens to you if they arrive in Heaven and you don't?
Water off a duck's back man I don't take offence. Show me where I have been hypocritical please. I use scripture not the words of man show me where I have used the words of men.
Wrath is part of His omnibenevolence then is it? You have changed your position. How can He be all kind and yet invent Hell? The question is still yours to answer.
How you can say this after I say God does as He pleases is quite beyond me.
john. </font>[/QUOTE]The "proof" of man's errors will come at the "worse possible time", when they're standing if front of Jesus.
You, Me, nor anyone else, will convince Jesus our words were "his words" as he taught us through the Holy Ghost", unless they were "his words".
People today have "No fear" of "handling/mishandling God's words", without being led/taught by the HG, they're under the impression that no one is going to prove them "WRONG"??
Actually, It would be better for them if they never said anything than attempt to teach something that was wrong, as I said, the "PROOF" will come at the "Worse possible time".
The "ONLY REASON" people don't know the truth is because they aren't listening/following the "Holy Ghost.
Mt 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Nu 32:23 and be sure your sin will find you out.
Hello Me4Him.
These type of words?
Do they have no fear? I did wonder but I would not think fear is in those that oppose God's truth but hatred is. Man is at emnity with their Maker.
Is that it? Why did you not respond to the things I spoke of? You have no response but bluster and wind. John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world...
Why doesn't He pray for the ones He loves? Why don't you answer? Why did Eli's family not get an atonement for them? Answer that and you will have to answer the point, not to me, that Christ did not die for everybody. He didn't did He? The bible says that God swore an oath that Eli's household would never receive one didn't He? That proves limited atonement doesn't it?
john.
There will be no error made as those who are saved are ever in error as those who are not saved are forever at emnity with God. An error will not stop anyone going to Heaven or Hell.
Dt 29:4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
These type of words?
HG? I suppose you would call Queen Elizabeth Lizzie?
Do they have no fear? I did wonder but I would not think fear is in those that oppose God's truth but hatred is. Man is at emnity with their Maker.
Those with the truth know it because they know Him. Why would it be better if they had said nothing? Are there degrees in Hell?
No it's not it's because God has decreed Hell for those who are not led by the Holy Spirit. They don't listen because to this day the LORD has not given them a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.
Jesus died for my sins.
A caution for all I suspect.
Is that it? Why did you not respond to the things I spoke of? You have no response but bluster and wind. John 17:9 I pray for them. I am not praying for the world...
Why doesn't He pray for the ones He loves? Why don't you answer? Why did Eli's family not get an atonement for them? Answer that and you will have to answer the point, not to me, that Christ did not die for everybody. He didn't did He? The bible says that God swore an oath that Eli's household would never receive one didn't He? That proves limited atonement doesn't it?
john.
While I'm not Arminian, I'll play the arminian's advocate and say - not necessarily.
It proves that Eli's house was eventually excluded from a blessing that they had but lost.
Exodus 32
32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
HankD
Hello HankD
The bible says that God swore an oath that Eli's household would never receive an atonement didn't He? That proves limited atonement doesn't it?
Limited atonement is not necessarily proved by 1 Sam 3:14 where we are told by God that He swore an oath that He would never give an atonement for Eli's house which means Jesus did not suffer an atoning sacrifice for all men. That is not necessarily proved? HaHa!
Thanks for the oppotunity to answer such a point. For truly someone would have said such. They will have to do better won't they?
As to the verses you gave I wonder why you should quote them. Are they germane? Did Jesus die for those idolaters? Did Jesus die for those He refused to unblind and undeaf?
DT 29:2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:
Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. 4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. 5 During the forty years that I led you through the desert, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. 6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God.
They did not take the High and Mighty One at His word did they?
john.
The bible says that God swore an oath that Eli's household would never receive an atonement didn't He? That proves limited atonement doesn't it?
A genuine Arminian response I would say. It is great that you know Arminianism as practiced here.
Limited atonement is not necessarily proved by 1 Sam 3:14 where we are told by God that He swore an oath that He would never give an atonement for Eli's house which means Jesus did not suffer an atoning sacrifice for all men.
That is not necessarily proved? HaHa!Thanks for the oppotunity to answer such a point.
For truly someone would have said such. They will have to do better won't they?As to the verses you gave I wonder why you should quote them. Are they germane? Did Jesus die for those idolaters? Did Jesus die for those He refused to unblind and undeaf?
DT 29:2 Moses summoned all the Israelites and said to them:
Your eyes have seen all that the LORD did in Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his officials and to all his land. 3 With your own eyes you saw those great trials, those miraculous signs and great wonders. 4 But to this day the LORD has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear. 5 During the forty years that I led you through the desert, your clothes did not wear out, nor did the sandals on your feet. 6 You ate no bread and drank no wine or other fermented drink. I did this so that you might know that I am the LORD your God.
They did not take the High and Mighty One at His word did they?
john.
“Theologians are the map” that indicates where the treasure is. What treasure “you seek” will be the map that “you follow.”
"It isn't logical to hold to one point of Calvinism. If one falls they all fall."
"When you have the right theology you become a big head like me."
Pay attention this time to what I'm saying
John, then you won’t have to try and twist what I said about God’s wrath so that you can support your work to make Him out to be evil in His hate.“God’s nature is both perfect justice and perfect love.”
(Deu 32:4) He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
“I trust in God’s justice, He is totally fair; no one will get a bum decision at God’s judgment seat; every human is guaranteed absolute righteous judgment.”
(Job 34:10) Therefore hearken unto me, ye men of understanding: far be it from God, that he should do wickedness; and from the Almighty, that he should commit iniquity.
“Here-in lies the problem; God’s justice exposes man’s inadequacy. The Bible says every person has failed to live up to God’s moral law and has sinned, none is righteous, all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3) and we find ourselves under divine justice. You reap what you sow and the wages of sin is death. This is “pure” justice.”
Therefore, we must cast ourselves on God's mercy. Even though we are guilty and deserve to die, God still loves us.” “Nobody is good enough or measures up to God’s moral laws and by dependence on His justice we are all guilty. Therefore, we must cast ourselves on God's mercy. Even though we are guilty and deserve to die, God still loves us.”
(Psa 18:30) As for God, his way is perfect : the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him.
Are we more perfect that God
John?(Mar 12:31) And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.
(Job 4:17) Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
“Some people think God evil to create hell but the Christian has a different perspective of God from the Bible:”
(Eze 33:11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
(2Pe 3:9) The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness ; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
(1Ti 2:3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
(1Ti 2:4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth .
“God pleads with people to turn back from this self destructive course and be saved. God has a dilemma on one hand is justice and holiness and on the other love and mercy. God can not be compromised, He does not lie. In His love He voluntarily took upon Himself the death penalty that we deserve."
(1Jo 4:10) Herein is love , not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Here is the wrath of God that Jesus endured hell for us and in order for us to receive forgiveness we need to place our trust in Christ. Thus in a sense our just God doesn’t send anyone to hell. His desire is that everyone be saved, and He pleads with people to come to Him.
(Eze 33:11) Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
But if we reject Christ's sacrifice for our sin, then God has no choice but to give us what we deserve. God will not send us to hell--but we will send ourselves. Our eternal destiny thus lies in our own hands. It is a matter of our free choice where we shall spend eternity.
There is no inconsistency between our all-loving God and some people going to hell. God has created us with free will, it follows that He cannot guarantee that all persons will freely give their lives to Him and be saved as He abides in truth. Some people may go to hell despite all-powerful God’s loving desire and efforts that we be saved. He can not force us to be freely saved.”
Once again,
When all-loving God created the world it was for the good; if there was Adam all by himself and nothing to compare against him; a world with a population of one it would not be good. (Gen 2:18) On the sixth day God created BOTH male and female,
(Gen 1:27) So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
And God said it was very good!
(Gen 1:31) And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
I would think it obvious why God said it was not good that man should be alone; all-loving God is not compelled to prefer a world with a population of one and is free to create a balance.
The opponent of an all-loving God creating a hell may consider the alternative.
Here is His word:
Limited Atonement?
How about unlimited Propitiation?
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Propitiation is the part of the atonement in which all of mankind was "bought back" out of (presumably) the hand of satan (who else?).
And limited destruction?
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
Here we have those who have been "bought" by the Lord Jesus Christ, yet they bring upon themselves "swift destruction".
HankD
Hello HankD.
You have 7000 posts and you are asking this kind of stuff? Why? You know it's answerable don't you?
...salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles... God so loved the world He was prepared to cut Israel off for the Gentiles. Simple isn't it? Rom 11:11-12. Israel does not figure as part of the world as they are a physical representation of the Church and that Church is not in the world either. We are not of the world. John 17:16 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
They became His property and it does not say Christ died for them.
john.
1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
You have 7000 posts and you are asking this kind of stuff? Why? You know it's answerable don't you?
...salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles... God so loved the world He was prepared to cut Israel off for the Gentiles. Simple isn't it? Rom 11:11-12. Israel does not figure as part of the world as they are a physical representation of the Church and that Church is not in the world either. We are not of the world. John 17:16 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it.
You are still denying the scriptures. There was no atonement made for Eli's house therefore if you don't believe that God swore an oath never to give an atonement yet you still hold that the world means all men then you do not believe openly the word of God. Limited atonement is proved beyond doubt with 1 Sam 3:14.
...even denying the Lord that bought them... What you are saying is that Jesus The Despot bought their debts by paying for sin? but that is not what Jesus has bought. He has bought them. It does not say He bought something for them.
They became His property and it does not say Christ died for them. john.