Omniscience

[NetChaplain]

This is interesting and confusing as I read the comments in the thread. Hope this will be clarified. I don't know if John 3:16 is related to this but it goes like this "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Begotten Son that whoever believe in Him shall not perish but have an everlasting life."

Hi, and thanks for the input!

 

[NetChaplain]

God has hardness to those whom He knows will finally choose unbelief, and mercy to the believer!

Rom 11:30, 32:

John Gill: "that he might have mercy upon all": not upon all the individuals of Jews and Gentiles; for all are not concluded in, or convinced of the sin of unbelief, but only such who are eventually believers, as appears from the parallel text, Galatians 3:22; and designs all God's elect among the Jews, called "their fulness," Romans 11:12; and all God's elect among the Gentiles, called "the fulness of the Gentiles," Romans 11:25; for whom he has mercy in store, and will bestow it on them; and in order to bring them to a sense of their need of it, and that he may the more illustriously display the riches of it, he leaves them for a while in a state of unbelief, and then by his Spirit thoroughly convinces them of it, and gives them faith to look to, and believe in, the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ, unto eternal life.

 

[JonC]

To me, the “elect of God” (Mat 24:24: Rom 8:33; Col 3:12; Tit 1:1) are those whom God knows are going to “choose life” (Deu 30:19) and receive the Lord Jesus; and this before the “foundation of the world” (Eph 1:4), even from the eternal past. He chose us before we chose Him, because He foreknew of our receiving Christ into our lives (Jhn 1:12).

Therefore, those whom He foreknew would choose Him, He “predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will” (Eph 1:5, 11). These are those whom He “called,” “justified,” and “glorified” (Rom 8:30).

My perspective is that mankind was called to salvation when God sent His Son, but He knew only “few” would choose to believe in Him” (Mat 7:13, 14), and that it would be worth it (Luk 15:7). Remember, God is not a “respecter of persons” (Acts 10:34; Mat 22:16; Luk 20:21; Rom 2:11; Gal 2:6; Eph 6:9; Col 3:25; 1Pe 1:17), thus the answer that God chooses whom He will and will not save is absent of Scriptural support!

I can see how it can be said both ways.

I agree that predestination cannot be divorced from omniscience (and God knowing based on decree is not omniscience).

God's decree or "made it happen" is true of everything in the sense that an Omniscient God created, knowing beginning from end.

The problem comes, IMHO, when we try to divide God among His attributes, which makes God less than man - less complex, less intricate, etc.

 

[NetChaplain]

I can see how it can be said both ways.

I agree that predestination cannot be divorced from omniscience (and God knowing based on decree is not omniscience).

God's decree or "made it happen" is true of everything in the sense that an Omniscient God created, knowing beginning from end.

The problem comes, IMHO, when we try to divide God among His attributes, which makes God less than man - less complex, less intricate, etc.

Hi, and appreciate the interesting comment. I think God's decree on "the law of sin" is "the soul that sins, it shall die" (Eze 18:4, 20). To this decree all are subject, unless redeemed. His foreknowledge of everyone's finality cannot effect this in any way, as all that God foreknows must transpire, and without anything ever occurring apart from His foreknowledge, which is everything He has always known (unless we're not discussing the same issue).

 

[JonC]

Hi, and appreciate the interesting comment. I think God's decree on "the law of sin" is "the soul that sins, it shall die" (Eze 18:4, 20). To this decree all are subject, unless redeemed. His foreknowledge of everyone's finality cannot effect this in any way, as all that God foreknows must transpire, and without anything ever occurring apart from His foreknowledge, which is everything He has always known (unless we're not discussing the same issue).

Hey brother,

We are discussing the same issue. I would say everything is predestined to occur exactly as God knows it will occur.

The error comes in, I believe, when we try to make God into man (I know something under my control will happen when I do it). But applying this to God divorces God from true omniscience. God does not need to decree some men to salvation and others to damnation in order to be sovereign. IMHO, an Omniscient Creator is by that definition sovereign, and everything is predestined.

 

[utilyan]

without anything ever occurring apart from His foreknowledge

Sounds like FOREKNOWLEDGE is greater than God.

Jeremiah 18
8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it.

Whoops!

Think about it folks....this is called COMMON SENSE..... I won't do the disaster I PLANNED to do?

Does God want me to sin? Does God want you to sin? Does God want anyone to sin?

If you can answer those 3 questions it does not take rocket science to establish God's want and desire.

 

[NetChaplain]

we try to make God into man.

Not sure I know what you mean here Brother. Thanks.

 

[JonC]

Not sure I know what you mean here Brother. Thanks.

We sometimes think the only way God can be sovereign is if He is the cause of an action. The Calvinist often views the Arminian as violating divine sovereignty in salvation, but this is only true if God acts as if He were man.

If God is omniscient then it is necessary that all things within the scope of God's knowledge is predestined.

The only two options one who rejects predestination has is to reject divine omniscience or to hold to open theology (that omniscience does not include contigent events).

 

[NetChaplain]

Sounds like FOREKNOWLEDGE is greater than God.

Foreknowledge is only of God. I think I still do not understand the point you're trying to make.

Jeremiah 18
8if that nation against which I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I planned to bring on it..

God speaks this way for us to learn. He has always known all who will turn to Him! Like the apple in the "Tree" and the pair on the ground, God has always known they would partake, but He began teaching us by forbidding the wrong so we would start learning what is right and wrong; then from that know good and evil, which they did not know until partaking. All part of the plan!!

 

[NetChaplain]

We sometimes think the only way God can be sovereign is if He is the cause of an action.

I think I may see what you're trying to express. Myself, I see His sovereignty most in Him preplanning using all things, esp. evil, to manifest His goodness, holiness and love, via His omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence.

If God is omniscient then it is necessary that all things within the scope of God's knowledge is predestined.

God's omniscience results in knowing the destination of all things, even from eternity past.

The only two options one who rejects predestination has is to reject divine omniscience

To reject predestination is merely not to understand it, like many of God's attributes which go misunderstood.

 

[1689Dave]

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,” 2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV 1900)

Solved in a few words.

 

[NetChaplain]

“Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,” 2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV 1900)

Solved in a few words.

Hi, and you've shared I think the most inclusive and applicable passage concerning the issue of works. But I do not see how making a choice is works related. I think that the concept that man not having a choice in accepting or rejecting Christ has just been accepted so widely that it seems it must be so, as are some other Bible doctrines concerning spiritual growth (which does not have to do with receiving salvation, but growing from it).

Choice began with the "Tree" and is the most commonly repeated concept in Scripture, e.g. Deu 30:19 (Scripture always admonishes to choose rightly). All either choose to receive or choose not to receive (Jhn 1:12). Choice cannot be escaped, and is I think the primary element incurring self responsibility, resulting from the grace and fairness of God. He made salvation available to all to be fair, even though He knew all who would not choose to receive it, and represent examples of wrongful choices.

Like the wheat and the tares, there will be those choosing mercy, and others to be examples of condemnations. Mat 7:13, 14 is a good example of admonishment to choose rightly (straight and narrow).

 

[1689Dave]

Hi, and you've shared I think the most inclusive and applicable passage concerning the issue of works. But I do not see how making a choice is works related. I think that the concept that man not having a choice in accepting or rejecting Christ has just been accepted so widely that it seems it must be so, as are some other Bible doctrines concerning spiritual growth (which does not have to do with receiving salvation, but growing from it).

Choice began with the "Tree" and is the most commonly repeated concept in Scripture, e.g. Deu 30:19 (Scripture always admonishes to choose rightly). All either choose to receive or choose not to receive (Jhn 1:12). Choice cannot be escaped, and is I think the primary element incurring self responsibility, resulting from the grace and fairness of God. He made salvation available to all to be fair, even though He knew most would not choose to receive it!

Like the wheat and the tares, there will be those choosing mercy, and others to be examples of condemnations. Mat 7:13, 14 is a good example of admonishment to choose rightly (straight and narrow).

Spiritually dead people cannot make good choices. If they did choose, it would be an idol to their further damnation. Jesus says, apart from me you can do nothing. He, not you, is the author and finisher of our faith.

 

[NetChaplain]

Spiritually dead people cannot make good choices. If they did choose, it would be an idol to their further damnation. Jesus says, apart from me you can do nothing. He, not you, is the author and finisher of our faith.

I'm not sure if we need to continue t pursue this issue because I feel I shared enough of why I believe the way I do, and I don't want to chance offending you with my answers, but thanks for the input. God guide us!

 

[1689Dave]

I'm not sure if we need to continue t pursue this issue because I feel I shared enough of why I believe the way I do, and I don't want to chance offending you with my answers, but thanks for the input. God guide us!

If you could prove your point, you would have by now. So If I were you. I'd give up too.

 

[NetChaplain]

If you could prove your point, you would have by now. So If I were you. I'd give up too.

Not trying to prove but just share why I believe what I believe.

 

[1689Dave]

Not trying to prove but just share why I believe what I believe.

That's OK. But you are accountable to God for speaking the truth. How do you know you are not a false teacher if you cannot prove your position?

 

[NetChaplain]

That's OK. But you are accountable to God for speaking the truth. How do you know you are not a false teacher if you cannot prove your position?

Only if one knows he is not teaching truth will accountability incur; and nonessential doctrine (teachings not effecting salvation) does not carry the wait of accountability that essential doctrine does (teaching required for receiving salvation).

Also, how believers respond to one another in their communications is more important than all, because that's the purpose of Biblical doctrine: get saved; love one another with God's indwelling love. I'm always most concerned in communicating in a way that might not offend (Mat 18:6), and I'm not saying this to suspect any individual, but just letting it be known.

 

[1689Dave]

Only if one knows he is not teaching truth will accountability incur; and nonessential doctrine (teachings not effecting salvation) does not carry the wait of accountability that essential doctrine does (teaching required for receiving salvation).

Also, how believers respond to one another in their communications is more important than all, because that's the purpose of Biblical doctrine: get saved; love one another with God's indwelling love. I'm always most concerned in communicating in a way that might not offend (Mat 18:6), and I'm not saying this to suspect any individual, but just letting it be known.

Christianity teaches salvation by Grace. You teach salvation by works foreseen.

 

[1689Dave]

Why I fear for you is in Harod who God killed having him eaten alive by worms for not giving God glory in his mundane speech. How much worse is it not to give God glory in salvation? But to lavish it on the "foreseen" self-righteous which scripture knows nothing of?