On a South Sea Island.....

[salzer mtn]

Just a thought for consideration, if all the native people have to hear the gospel to be saved from hell why doesn't God just cause them to be born in a land where the gospel is preached ? Why does the natives salvation depend on a missionary that may decide by his free will he doesn't want to go to the Island ?

 

[Revmitchell]

..................................................

 

[Winman]

This scenario is almost an exact representation of a real life case presented by Evangelist Bill Rice (founder of the Bill Rice Ranch), recounted in his book Cowboy Boots in Darkest Africa. To make a long story short, Rice visited a pygmy village which had never heard the Gospel or even seen a white man. An old man stood up and said, "I thought it must be like that. As a young man I climbed a tree, looked up in the sky and thought, 'There must be a true God.'"

Here's the relevant truth: if anyone seeks the true God and His Son Jesus Christ, they will find Him. God will send someone or provide some way for him or her to hear the Gospel and be saved. They won't need to have some extra-Biblical way of salvation.

"Seek and ye shall find" (Matt. 7:7).

I like this John, especially how you quoted Matthew 7:7. I have always had a similar view, if a man cries out in his heart to know God, God hears and will reach that man.

That said, what a man was required to know and believe has changed in time as more and more was revealed. Adam and Eve only had to believe in the "woman's seed" that would come. I believe that she mistakenly believed Cain was this promised seed;

Gen 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD.

Job simply knew his redeemer lives, and that he would see him with his own eyes some day.

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

It is fairly safe to assume that Job taught his neighbor and fellow man, and they gained some important knowledge here. God would send a redeemer. What does that mean? It means God would purchase man back who was "sold under sin" as Paul said in Rom 7:14. Job knew God would stand on the earth with men. Job knew his body would be resurrected. So here was new revelation.

The scriptures tell us all men were dispersed at the tower of Babel. These were the near descendants of Noah, so certainly they had some knowledge of the true God. As they went out into all parts of the world, in time that true knowledge was lost or perverted, but all men had some knowledge of the truth. And I believe God's word teaches that he holds them accountable according to how much they know and understand.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Jesus said the servant that did not know his lord's will, yet did commit things worthy of stripes shall be beaten with few stripes. I would not like to speculate exactly what this means, only that God will be more lenient with those who have no knowledge of the truth.

We also see from scripture that God "winked" at man's ignorance in the past, but now commands all men everywhere to repent.

Acts 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.

Paul says something amazing here, he said the Greeks ignorantly worshiped the true God.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Paul implies God was lenient with those who did not know the true God and the gospel. But once a man hears he is commanded to repent.

So, this is a very difficult subject no one has ever answered well, but we can know that God is just, and he will judge all men in perfect justice.

 

[Rippon]

So, this is a very difficult subject no one has ever answered well, but we can know that God is just, and he will judge all men in perfect justice.

No, winman, you are wrong. God judges the ones who go to perdition. They receive His justice. But the elect do not receive justice. They are recepients of God's mercy.

 

[preachinjesus]

Its funny, eveytime someone says you must have a preacher and the Bible to hear the Gospel of salvation to be saved I a reminded of a friend who is deaf and cannot hear.

 

[Revmitchell]

Its funny, eveytime someone says you must have a preacher and the Bible to hear the Gospel of salvation to be saved I a reminded of a friend who is deaf and cannot hear.

Not sure what is funny about that. Hey let's all just ignore scripture.

 

[Winman]

No, winman, you are wrong. God judges the ones who go to perdition. They receive His justice. But the elect do not receive justice. They are recepients of God's mercy.

Being imputed "righteous" is a judgment my friend.

Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

To impute means to place on one's account and judge them accordingly.

This is what folks do not understand about Romans 5:18-19

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Adam and Jesus were alike and the exact opposite at the same time. Adam introduced sin into the world, and that judgment for sin, which is death. Jesus introduced righteousness into the world by faith, and the free gift of eternal life.

Again, this is called a legal precedent. This is a common practice in law. Whenever someone commits a crime (but legal acts as well) for the first time, the courts will use this case in subsequent similar cases. This guarantees fairness and consistency in the law.

Adam was the first person to transgress God's law knowingly. He was judged a "sinner" which is a legal term like "felon". He was also sentenced or condemned to death, which means eternal separation from God.

Likewise, when we knowingly sin as Adam did, we are judged or imputed "sinners". This is what Romans 5:19 means when it says by the disobedience of one many (not all) were made sinners.

Jesus was the first to trust God to save him from the dead. He was judged "righteous" which is also a legal term like "sinner". He was raised from the dead to die no more (eternal life).

1 Pet 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Likewise, when we trust Jesus to save us as Jesus trusted his Father to save him, we are judged or imputed "righteous" and given the free gift of eternal life. This is why the scriptures say through the obedience of one man many (not all) were made righteous.

You notice I do not have to redefine "many" to mean "all" as others do? That is what happens when you rightly divide the word of truth. :thumbsup:

 

[Judith]

So Salty's South Sea islander is doomed because some guy with a seminary degree and a missions grant didn't make it to him in time?I believe you mean "Philip" -- and I'd classify those as special circumstances, unless you can point me to someone whose been teleported across the globe by God to preach the Gospel recently?

Romans 2:11-16 is properly exegeted in the post before yours. You might want to take a quick look at it.

Thank you for the correction about the name Philip. And yes if the person does not hear they remain in their condemnation since there is but one way to God and that is repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. If a person could get saved apart from that then Christ was mocked on the cross by God.
Salvation is not about God being fair nor is the fact that some hear and some do not. Salvation is about God being merciful and He will have mercy on who He will have mercy and He will harden who He will harden. When ever I hear someone suggest that it is not fair that someone goes to hell who never hears the gospel I immediately know that person does not understand the sinfulness of man and the Sovereignty of God. To even lightly suggest that it is only fair for people to hear suggests that there is something worthy about the person so they should hear. We are so depraved that we do not even deserve to hear the gospel, much less be able to receive it.
It is grace if we hear and grace if we are saved. Not all will hear and not all will be saved, but I do believe that every person who has the desire to get right with God will hear.

 

[Winman]

Thank you for the correction about the name Philip. And yes if the person does not hear they remain in their condemnation since there is but one way to God and that is repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. If a person could get saved apart from that then Christ was mocked on the cross by God.
Salvation is not about God being fair nor is the fact that some hear and some do not. Salvation is about God being merciful and He will have mercy on who He will have mercy and He will harden who He will harden. When ever I hear someone suggest that it is not fair that someone goes to hell who never hears the gospel I immediately know that person does not understand the sinfulness of man and the Sovereignty of God. To even lightly suggest that it is only fair for people to hear suggests that there is something worthy about the person so they should hear. We are so depraved that we do not even deserve to hear the gospel, much less be able to receive it.
It is grace if we hear and grace if we are saved. Not all will hear and not all will be saved, but I do believe that every person who has the desire to get right with God will hear.

Oh, but it is Judith. Did you not see the scripture I posted before?

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The scriptures are clear that God holds a person accountable according to how much they know. That is why babies are not judged sinners, because they do not know between good and evil.

Now, all adults (except the mentally impaired) do understand right from wrong and so are accountable. But Acts 17:30 argues that God "winked" at men's ignorance, but now commands all men every where to repent. Paul was speaking of the "unknown God" the Greeks worshiped in ignorance here.

So, I believe the scriptures do argue that God takes into account how much men understand about God and the gospel.

 

[Zaac]

So a native lives on a South Sea Pacific Island - has never seen a Bible or ever came in contact with a missionary.

So one day, he looks up in the sky and realizes that someone greater then him and knows that
a higher power has made the beauty of the Earth.

Has this man been born again?

Without a preacher or a Bible, how can he be saved?

Open for discussion Island

I always ask, if you know of such a person and where he is, why haven't YOU taken the Gospel to him?

Perhaps one of the reasons God has commanded us to GO! is so that we realize that such a person will be lost for all eternity without repentance and coming to faith in Christ. The Great Commission demands that if we know of such a person that the Gospel be gotten to him.

 

[kyredneck]

the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.` Jn 3:8 YLT

 

[Judith]

Oh, but it is Judith. Did you not see the scripture I posted before?

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

The scriptures are clear that God holds a person accountable according to how much they know. That is why babies are not judged sinners, because they do not know between good and evil.

Now, all adults (except the mentally impaired) do understand right from wrong and so are accountable. But Acts 17:30 argues that God "winked" at men's ignorance, but now commands all men every where to repent. Paul was speaking of the "unknown God" the Greeks worshiped in ignorance here.

So, I believe the scriptures do argue that God takes into account how much men understand about God and the gospel.

That is talking about the level of condemnation one receives, not salvation. No believer is going to receive any stripes. For some hell will be more intense than for others. Both are terrible, but some will suffer more.

 

[Winman]

That is talking about the level of condemnation one receives, not salvation. No believer is going to receive any stripes. For some hell will be more intense than for others. Both are terrible, but some will suffer more.

I don't know Judith. The "many" stripes sounds like hell, eternal punishment. But the "few" stripes does not.

I don't like to speculate about things in scripture I do not know well, but this scripture argues God will be lenient on those who did not know his will, which is to trust Christ.

And Paul clearly told the Athenians that God "winked" at their previous ignorance, when they did not know who the true God is, but now commands all men everywhere to repent. They have heard the truth now, the true God and the gospel of Jesus Christ. They have no excuse now and will be held accountable.

Jesus himself said if he did not come and speak to us, we would be without sin.

Jhn 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Now, I understand Jesus to mean ALL the word of God, not just the words he spoke in his three and a half year ministry. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.

All men have some knowledge of God. There are hundreds of "flood myths", even on tiny islands that are isolated by thousands of miles from other civilizations. I believe this is the remnant of those people who were dispersed at the Tower of Babel just after Noah's flood. They took the truth with them, but over time the story was distorted. Nevertheless all men everywhere seem to have knowledge of a righteous God who punished the earth for man's wickedness. This might be all a man knows, but this might be how God judges men who never actually hear the gospel.

Here is a very interesting article about these many flood myths.

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

 

[Yeshua1]

So Salty's South Sea islander is doomed because some guy with a seminary degree and a missions grant didn't make it to him in time?I believe you mean "Philip" -- and I'd classify those as special circumstances, unless you can point me to someone whose been teleported across the globe by God to preach the Gospel recently?

Romans 2:11-16 is properly exegeted in the post before yours. You might want to take a quick look at it.

No, its just that if the Lord saves such a person, he will make sure to get the message to him by a missionary, radip/tv/mail/ even a dream or vision if need be!

 

[Judith]

I don't know Judith. The "many" stripes sounds like hell, eternal punishment. But the "few" stripes does not.

I don't like to speculate about things in scripture I do not know well, but this scripture argues God will be lenient on those who did not know his will, which is to trust Christ.

And Paul clearly told the Athenians that God "winked" at their previous ignorance, when they did not know who the true God is, but now commands all men everywhere to repent. They have heard the truth now, the true God and the gospel of Jesus Christ. They have no excuse now and will be held accountable.

Jesus himself said if he did not come and speak to us, we would be without sin.

Jhn 15:22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no cloke for their sin.

Now, I understand Jesus to mean ALL the word of God, not just the words he spoke in his three and a half year ministry. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.

All men have some knowledge of God. There are hundreds of "flood myths", even on tiny islands that are isolated by thousands of miles from other civilizations. I believe this is the remnant of those people who were dispersed at the Tower of Babel just after Noah's flood. They took the truth with them, but over time the story was distorted. Nevertheless all men everywhere seem to have knowledge of a righteous God who punished the earth for man's wickedness. This might be all a man knows, but this might be how God judges men who never actually hear the gospel.

Here is a very interesting article about these many flood myths.

http://www.nwcreation.net/noahlegends.html

Christ took our stripes. He either paid it all or not at all in which case no one can be saved.

 

[Winman]

Christ took our stripes. He either paid it all or not at all in which case no one can be saved.

Yes, Jesus took our stripes, but we only have access to this grace "in him".

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We only have redemption, the forgiveness of sins "in him".

If you have trusted Jesus, you have been baptized into his body. You literally died with him to sin on the cross, and have been raised with him to new life.

But that is only if you have believed and are "in him". If you are not in him, you have not died to sin, and you have not been raised. You will die in your own sin and be punished forever.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages of sin is death. Jesus was made sin for us and satisfied that payment, he died to sin. But we are baptized into his body when we believed, and so we also died to sin (sin being personified here). We no longer belong to sin as our master, we now belong to Jesus who purchased us.

Jesus fully paid for sin and rose from the dead. And those that have believed and are baptized into his body will be raised also.

But those who never believed are not "in him" and have to pay sin themselves. They must die to sin and be separated from God forever.

 

[Judith]

Yes, Jesus took our stripes, but we only have access to this grace "in him".

Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

We only have redemption, the forgiveness of sins "in him".

If you have trusted Jesus, you have been baptized into his body. You literally died with him to sin on the cross, and have been raised with him to new life.

But that is only if you have believed and are "in him". If you are not in him, you have not died to sin, and you have not been raised. You will die in your own sin and be punished forever.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The wages of sin is death. Jesus was made sin for us and satisfied that payment, he died to sin. But we are baptized into his body when we believed, and so we also died to sin (sin being personified here). We no longer belong to sin as our master, we now belong to Jesus who purchased us.

Jesus fully paid for sin and rose from the dead. And those that have believed and are baptized into his body will be raised also.

But those who never believed are not "in him" and have to pay sin themselves. They must die to sin and be separated from God forever.

I am a little confused since this is what I have been saying.

 

[Winman]

I am a little confused since this is what I have been saying.

OK, maybe I misunderstood you.

Yes, those who receive "few stripes" are not saved. But how can few stripes be eternal?

I can see "many stripes" meaning eternal, but "few stripes" argues this punishment is limited.

I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. Jesus did not so much use terms that express severity as he did quantity.

 

[Rippon]

Yes, those who receive "few stripes" are not saved. But how can few stripes be eternal?

I can see "many stripes" meaning eternal, but "few stripes" argues this punishment is limited.

I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. Jesus did not so much use terms that express severity as he did quantity.

You are most certainly wrong winman. Your lack of logic is very disturbing.

First you acknowledge that those who receive a few stripes are not saved.

Then you say the 'punishment' is limited.

But no one in Heaven will receive any punishment whatsoever. Jesus took all our punishment on the cross.

There are only two destinations, Heaven and the Lake of Fire. There is no Purgatory as you seem to believe.

Those who receive light punishment --receive punishment nonetheless. And as you said,they are unsaved --hence not glory-bound.

Got it now winman?

 

[John of Japan]

Its funny, eveytime someone says you must have a preacher and the Bible to hear the Gospel of salvation to be saved I a reminded of a friend who is deaf and cannot hear.

The deaf "hear" in the sense of the meaning, "receive words and comprehend," if not literally. The Bill Rice Ranch I mentioned in my above post was the first American (if not in the world) ministry to reach deaf people. They have seen 1000s of deaf receive Christ through the Gospel, easily understood in sign language. Mrs. Rice wrote one of the first (if not the first) textbooks for sign language, still in print. So yes, the deaf need to "hear" the Gospel in their own language, like any other people group, and when they do they often trust Christ as Savior. Missionaries to the deaf, like the Bill Rice Ranch has in the Philippines, operate pretty much like us missionaries to the hearing.