On a South Sea Island.....

[Judith]

Even you Judith, you have your form of hardline restrictivism too. As harsh and restrictive as any of the others.

If what i said does not line up to scripture then it is as false as anyone's. If what i hold lines up then I am holding to the truth. There are not many ways to truth. Only truth.

 

[RLBosley]

For everyone's consideration, David Platt on this topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laA18HejfYg

As David says, "Idolatry is not good enough for the God of the universe"

 

[Judith]

For everyone's consideration, David Platt on this topic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laA18HejfYg

As David says, "Idolatry is not good enough for the God of the universe"

I would not agree with how he states it. All men know of God not know God. I think it is a distinction that is necessary. In this debate knowing of God does not save men, but only means we are all accountable.

 

[RLBosley]

I would not agree with how he states it. All men know of God not know God. I think it is a distinction that is necessary.

He's pulling that from Romans 1:21 (I believe, I can't watch it ATM to be sure),

[Rom 1:21 NASB] 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Clearly the knowing is not a salvific knowing though. In that sense you are right, they do not know God in a saving way.

 

[Winman]

You are not understanding what is going on. Abraham IS judging God by man's standard. God does not spare Sodom because of even 3 righteous who was lead out. He destroys Sodom. Sodom is NOT spared even because of Abrahams accusations against God and most important this is not about salvation, but life and death.

Correct, God did not destroy the righteous, that is why Lot was led out.

About Nineveh. Again you are not understanding. God chose Nineveh not Jonah. When God speaks to Jonah He speaks to Him on Jonah's terms. Keep in mind that Nineveh was not the only wicked city and God did not spare any other. Also God did judge Nineveh and destroyed it about 100 years later. God is showing His right to choose. It is not about being fair.

God implied he SHOULD spare Nineveh because there were 120,000 innocent children there and much cattle. These children could not discern between good and evil and were just as innocent as the cattle that could not sin.

About your speed trap example. God did not tempt man to sin. He did not set a trap.

Never said he did. Nevertheless man could not choose to be either obedient or disobedient unless the forbidden tree was there.

As for Romans 5:13 Paul is not saying men were not sinners prior to the law, and not on the way to hell, but that they would not be judged by the law prior to its giving. Those without the law will be judged There is none righteous no not one for ALL have come short of the glory of God.

Paul is actually arguing that there was a law, and the fact that men from Adam to Moses died proves this, because sin is not imputed when there is no law. The law was the law written on men's hearts. They did not sin Adam's sin, we are specifically and directly told that in Rom 5:14.

Look at Romans 5:15 all are condemned because of ONE man's sin. Sin does not need to be imputed to make us lost. We are seeds of Adam and his transgression sold us into depravity. Men do not become lost at their first sin or knowledge of sin. We are born lost. There is none righteous no not one.

No, they are not condemned because of Adam. God said the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father or vice versa.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

You are WAY OFF here.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

You are way off here too. You believe that sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, but that righteousness is conditionally imputed to all who believe. This violates Paul's form of argument that each side of these verses are treated equally ("so also is").

The correct way to understand this verse is that death is CONDITIONALLY imputed to those who sin as Adam did, and likewise righteousness and life is CONDITIONALLY imputed to those who believe as Jesus did.

Adam and Jesus were the "legal precedents" or first under the law, those who committed similar acts in the future were treated the same. So death came upon every man who sinned as Adam sinned, and life came upon every man who believed as Jesus believed.

In common law legal systems, a precedent or authority is a legal case establishing a principle or rule that a court or other judicial body adopts when deciding later cases with similar issues or facts.

Adam and Jesus established a rule that was used to decide later cases of those who acted in the same way. This is a legal precedent.

Lastly what you are ignoring is that every instance you gave the people had to hear and come to repentance and faith. There is and will never be another way. God chooses. It is not about fairness. Not all hear and if they do not hear they do not get saved. He chose Israel as His people and no one else. It was not for any reason but His will. God does not operate on the grounds of being fair as men contrive it. He operates by grace, and sovereignty.

And you are ignoring that Jesus said if I had not spoken to them they had not sin. Is that difficult for you to understand?

I have also showed you other scripture that said the same thing, how Paul told the Athenians that God "winked" at their former ignorance, but now commands all men everywhere to repent.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I believe it is you that does not understand.

 

[Judith]

Correct, God did not destroy the righteous, that is why Lot was led out.



God implied he SHOULD spare Nineveh because there were 120,000 innocent children there and much cattle. These children could not discern between good and evil and were just as innocent as the cattle that could not sin.



Never said he did. Nevertheless man could not choose to be either obedient or disobedient unless the forbidden tree was there.



Paul is actually arguing that there was a law, and the fact that men from Adam to Moses died proves this, because sin is not imputed when there is no law. The law was the law written on men's hearts. They did not sin Adam's sin, we are specifically and directly told that in Rom 5:14.



No, they are not condemned because of Adam. God said the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father or vice versa.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

You are WAY OFF here.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

You are way off here too. You believe that sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, but that righteousness is conditionally imputed to all who believe. This violates Paul's form of argument that each side of these verses are treated equally ("so also is").

The correct way to understand this verse is that death is CONDITIONALLY imputed to those who sin as Adam did, and likewise righteousness and life is CONDITIONALLY imputed to those who believe as Jesus did.

Adam and Jesus were the "legal precedents" or first under the law, those who committed similar acts in the future were treated the same. So death came upon every man who sinned as Adam sinned, and life came upon every man who believed as Jesus believed.



Adam and Jesus established a rule that was used to decide later cases of those who acted in the same way. This is a legal precedent.



And you are ignoring that Jesus said if I had not spoken to them they had not sin. Is that difficult for you to understand?

I have also showed you other scripture that said the same thing, how Paul told the Athenians that God "winked" at their former ignorance, but now commands all men everywhere to repent.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I believe it is you that does not understand.

We are deeply divided on understandings.

 

[Judith]

He's pulling that from Romans 1:21 (I believe, I can't watch it ATM to be sure),

[Rom 1:21 NASB] 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Clearly the knowing is not a salvific knowing though. In that sense you are right, they do not know God in a saving way.

If his bible says all men know God he needs to get another bible.

 

[RLBosley]

If his bible says all men know God he needs to get another bible.

Seriously?

Did you watch the video?

 

[Judith]

Seriously?

Did you watch the video?

Give me the scripture passage that says all men know God.

 

[RLBosley]

Give me the scripture passage that says all men know God.

That wasn't the question and I actually already did that.

What is your problem?

Until about 5 minutes ago I thought you were were of the more rational, reasonable posters here.

 

[Judith]

That wasn't the question and I actually already did that.

What is your problem?

Until about 5 minutes ago I thought you were were of the more rational, reasonable posters here.

I watched the part I refered to. My apology, but I went back and do not see the scripture verse you are refering to. Please post it again or give me the post number so i can look at it.

 

[RLBosley]

I watched the part I refered to. My apology, but I went back and do not see the scripture verse you are refering to. Please post it again or give me the post number so i can look at it.

You should watch the whole thing. From beginning to end. It is good. And BTW, he is actually agreeing with you (as do I).

Previous post is below:

He's pulling that from Romans 1:21 (I believe, I can't watch it ATM to be sure),

[Rom 1:21 NASB] 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Clearly the knowing is not a salvific knowing though. In that sense you are right, they do not know God in a saving way.

 

[DHK]

So a native lives on a South Sea Pacific Island - has never seen a Bible or ever came in contact with a missionary.

So one day, he looks up in the sky and realizes that someone greater then him and knows that
a higher power has made the beauty of the Earth.

Has this man been born again?

Without a preacher or a Bible, how can he be saved?

Open for discussion Island

It is a flawed premise. It assumes special creation. The "a native" had to come from somewhere. Who were his parents? What did they teach him? What about his grandparents? Any brothers and sisters?

That is where Romans chapter one comes into relevance:
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
--How far back did his ancestors know God, and then reject him.

Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
--God gave them up.

If he is there alone he will soon die. He will leave no descendants, have no children.

If you truly believe in the depravity of man that depravity had to come from somewhere. Where? If not, what would tempt him to sin? Then why would he sin, and why would he need a Savior? If Adam had not sinned would he have needed a Savior?

 

[Yeshua1]

Amen! I agree completely.

Another relevant passage: "34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him" (Acts 10).

So anywhere in the world someone seeks truth and salvation, God will see that they find it.

yes, but again, the truth from the perspective of the Bible seems to be that no one seeks after the lord but their own "free will", as all of us are sinners whose desire is to stay in the dark, and it takes God Himself to interven towards us first in order to get saved, not us first towards him!

 

[Yeshua1]

I think both of these statements are true but irrelevant to the OP, which is about the present dispensation.

Since all of us are spiritual dead i this present time, then its up to God to initiate salvations towards us, his Will, not to have Him wait upon our 'free will" response to him first!

 

[Yeshua1]

Even you Judith, you have your form of hardline restrictivism too. As harsh and restrictive as any of the others.

jesus Himself preach a very hard version of it, as he weas the one that stated that few indeed will find it, MANY will be lost, so your concerns should be what he stated, not what we hope he did!

 

[Yeshua1]

Correct, God did not destroy the righteous, that is why Lot was led out.

they were right NOT due to their own good works/behaviour, but but believing that God promised to save them from judgement

God implied he SHOULD spare Nineveh because there were 120,000 innocent children there and much cattle. These children could not discern between good and evil and were just as innocent as the cattle that could not sin.

NONE are innocent, as ALL are sinners before God, even Children, but God chooses to extend his mercy/grace towards such as them!

Never said he did. Nevertheless man could not choose to be either obedient or disobedient unless the forbidden tree was there.



Paul is actually arguing that there was a law, and the fact that men from Adam to Moses died proves this, because sin is not imputed when there is no law. The law was the law written on men's hearts. They did not sin Adam's sin, we are specifically and directly told that in Rom 5:14.

We all were included by God in the fall of Adam, for when he and eve died to God spiritually, we all got that also!

No, they are not condemned because of Adam. God said the son shall not bear the iniquity of his father or vice versa.

Wrong use of passage, was teaching God would not judge one for commiting same sins unless they actually did, NOT as to being found as sinners or not!

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

You are WAY OFF here.

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

You are way off here too. You believe that sin is unconditionally imputed to all men, but that righteousness is conditionally imputed to all who believe. This violates Paul's form of argument that each side of these verses are treated equally ("so also is").

The correct way to understand this verse is that death is CONDITIONALLY imputed to those who sin as Adam did, and likewise righteousness and life is CONDITIONALLY imputed to those who believe as Jesus did.

NO! All of us were imputed by God to be sinners, as ALL of us physically born into Adam, while those saved and in Christ have spiritual life, and jesus did NOT need to have faith to get saved, as he was/is God!

Adam and Jesus were the "legal precedents" or first under the law, those who committed similar acts in the future were treated the same. So death came upon every man who sinned as Adam sinned, and life came upon every man who believed as Jesus believed.

ALL have sinned, all died in Adam...

Adam and Jesus established a rule that was used to decide later cases of those who acted in the same way. This is a legal precedent.

NO! We are physically ALL born into adam, spiritually dead in sin, but ONLY those God saves are alive in Christ!

And you are ignoring that Jesus said if I had not spoken to them they had not sin. Is that difficult for you to understand?

I have also showed you other scripture that said the same thing, how Paul told the Athenians that God "winked" at their former ignorance, but now commands all men everywhere to repent.

Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

I believe it is you that does not understand.

You need to heed your own advise!

 

[kyredneck]

....never fear, Yeshua1 is here....

 

[Yeshua1]

....never fear, Yeshua1 is here....

thanks, I think!

 

[Yeshua1]

It is a flawed premise. It assumes special creation. The "a native" had to come from somewhere. Who were his parents? What did they teach him? What about his grandparents? Any brothers and sisters?

That is where Romans chapter one comes into relevance:
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
--How far back did his ancestors know God, and then reject him.

Romans 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
--God gave them up.

If he is there alone he will soon die. He will leave no descendants, have no children.

If you truly believe in the depravity of man that depravity had to come from somewhere. Where? If not, what would tempt him to sin? Then why would he sin, and why would he need a Savior? If Adam had not sinned would he have needed a Savior?

was the Cross of Christ always in the will of God, or did He react to Adam sinning , by putting that plan into effect afterwards?