Featured On a South Sea Island.....

Was Adam born with a sin nature?
If Adam had not eaten of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, but rather of of the fruit of the tree of life, would he have lived forever?
What separated Adam from God.

 

You consider Yeshua1 your ace?

You guys are hurtin' bad.

 

Christ and the cross was always His plan. Not sure that is relevant to what DHK asks, though, Yeshua. No offense intended.

Are there South Sea islanders? Yes.

Were they specially created? No.

Does wanting to know "who he is" have anything to do with the question? No.

Romans 1:21 is only so relevant as Romans 2:11-16 allows it to be.

That is an erroneous conclusion, if it means that He "gave them up" never to offer them another chance. Individually, yes, it is possible for a man to remove himself so far from the truth that he cannot find his way back and will never consider the truth again, even on his deathbed. Romans 1:18-32 is not written to individuals, but to the lost and degenerate as a group. There are those among them who can and will be reached for Christ.

And as I exegeted earlier, even such a man who has never met a Christian, much less anyone else, is dealt with by a loving God through the tenets of the "law written on their heart." God is both love and justice, but love rules His desires.

2 Peter 3, NASB
7 But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8 But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day.
9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 9 The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. ​

And yes, "all" means "all" and that's all it means. He is talking about the judgment of the world, and "ungodly men." He didn't qualify this as a select group. He's talking about "all men" and He does not desire any of them to perish. So, if they've never heard the Gospel, they do not have the Law, they are a law to themselves, and will be judged according to how their hearts accuse or defend them.

Rhetorical and irrelevant questions off-topic of Salty's OP. The issue is not whether the man needs a Savior. Of course he does. The issue is, if he has not heard of the Savior, is he condemned?

The answer is, "it depends upon his heart." I care not if you like it or not.

 

I have a simple answer for that: "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32). God draws all people to Himself through natural revelation, and even more when a person hears of the cross of Christ.

 

Of course they weren't. I believe John Patton was a missionary to those people some years ago. If they have rejected the truth since that time, then, as Romans 1:21ff teaches, they had the truth and rejected the truth. The rejection of the truth was passed down to successive generations.
Thus there is no one that is completely innocent as "a native dwelling on an island."

It is not erroneous.
Consider Alexandria in North Africa. It was one of the greatest centers of missionary activity in the early centuries of Christianity. By the time Mohammed came on the scene it had so apostatized from the truth that Mohammed found animists there--in abundance. Now Islam is there as the predominant religion. Once a major Christian center it is now Islamic. They have rejected the truth, and most of the people probably have never heard of the truth.
This is your scenario. A native man lives in a small town in Africa having never heard the truth....

The entire scenario was "rhetorical" wasn't it?
"A man"? Where did the man come from?
There are many men that have never heard the gospel.
Our obligation is to take the gospel to those who have never heard that glorious message before. If we have that message and they do not, then that responsibility is upon us. It always has been.
If they do not hear the gospel, to much extent the blood of the lost will be upon our hands. We are charged to be His witnesses.

 

DHK,

You entire post -- in fact, most of your posts on this thread -- either miss the point or fail to deal with the relevant posts before yours. Let me know when you want to find out what we're talking about, and what's been said about it.

HINT: Ignore history. Ignore potential for exposure to the Gospel. Assume nothing about his behavior, thought life, words (if he even has any). He's never met a Christian, never heard the Gospel and never will. Perhaps he's never even met anyone else, outside of his family, and they're gone. The only thing we know is he's a man. What's his eternal state?.

 

So boiling the OP down to a simple theological question:
Is natural revelation by itself, enough to bring a man to salvation?

Should make for a simple poll question.

Rob

 

Another complete and unbiblical falsehood.....shocking:thumbs::thumbs:

 

According to Romans 1:20

Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

All the world has no excuse.

Jesus knew the Samaritan woman wanted to know more. He also knew that no Jew would tell her the truth, "for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans," therefore He Himself went and told her. His disciples marveled.

Cornelius would not have been saved except by divine intervention. God had to give Peter the same vision three different times in order to get through to Peter that he could go without prejudice to the Gentiles to tell them of the good news.

God gives light. If they truly seek more light God will somehow grant it.

 

If someone has never heard the law they will still perish apart from the law. See Ro.2:12 especially within that section of verses 11-16.

Of course.

Sorry. Beulah the Buzzer has just sounded. Wrong answer TND. All hearts will not be right without Christ's righteousness.

I don't care if you like it or not.

 

That's not biblical drawing.

Many hear the Gospel of Christ and reject it. So that is not biblical drawing either. John 6 is a good place to find out about biblical drawing.

 

Agreed. I was going to say something about what PJ had said, but held off.

Probably no individual or assembly had the whole NEW Testament gathered up into one unit. An assembly might have had shelves of scrolls of the N.T. books; or the majority of them before, persecution came full sway.

Certainly no Council determined the New Testament canon. It was just an after-the-fact listing of what Christians had already believed was God-breathed Scripture long before 387 A.D.

 

Once Again .... for the stubborn minded!

Romans 2:12-16 (TLB) which says, "He will punish sin wherever it is found. He will punish the heathen when they sin, even though they never had God’s written laws, for down in their hearts they know right from wrong (the innate moral standard). God’s laws are written within them; their own conscience accuses them, or sometimes excuses them. And God will punish the Jews for sinning because they have his written laws but don’t obey them. They know what is right but don’t do it. After all, salvation is not given to those who know what to do, unless they do it. The day will surely come when at God’s command Jesus Christ will judge the secret lives of everyone, their inmost thoughts and motives; this is all part of God’s great plan, which I proclaim."

For those who think I believe in WORKS SALVATION, no I don't!

But to say there is not an inherant, God given moral standard, a standard that existed in the heathens and pagans ...WHAT did Paul mean when he wrote, "for down in their hearts they know right from wrong" ??? REMEMBER Paul is speaking about a people, and a time before the Jewish law, and or the Gospel was available.

What did He mean when he wrote, "God’s laws are written within them; their own conscience accuses them, or sometimes excuses them." ???

Or do you propose that we just forget this teaching by Paul. And if we forget this, that John 3:16 is meaningless too!

And while your at your holier-than-thou approach, explain tese examples:

1) “I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him” (Acts 10:34–35, KJV).

2) Naaman, the Syrian, was granted peace with God because he exercised faith, even though he was living in the midst of a pagan culture (II Kings 5:15–19).

3) James 4:17: “Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.” We are held accountable for what we do know by what we have seen in nature, His creation.

4) AND: Rahab, the prostitute, had only the smallest amount of knowledge of God, but the Bible refers to her as a woman of faith, and her actions were commended (Joshua 2:9; Hebrews 11:31).

“Because he hath appointed a day, in which he will judge the world in righteousness” (Acts 17:31). This means that when all the facts are in, God’s name will be vindicated and no one will be able to accuse Him of being unfair. Judith, God is fair (righteous) in judgement.

Romans 2:6: “God will render to each according to his deeds,” Is this works? We know God judges the secrets of our hearts, because He knows those secrets!

This is NOT works salvation ... but, RATHER the judgement by God according to the moral standard inherent within mankind! OR, are you going to deny that mankind has an inherent MORAL STANDARD???

ONCE AGAIN - In Romans 2:12-15 it states, “For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law unto themselves, in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts ultimately accusing or defending them. In the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.”

Scripture explains how God has given each man a “natural law”; a general understanding of right and wrong. This is evident in the fact that all men are endowed with a conscience. Every society, culture and person develops some type of a moral code that they judge others and themselves by. The remains of the conscience are marred but not destroyed, it still operates in us. We can know even by instinct what are the standards of truth coming from God. The gentiles or unbeliever is able to know and keep some of the moral law because they are made in the image of God. If they do not sear their conscience it continues to be a moral umpire.

Again Paul writes in Romans 1:19-20, "For what can be known about God is manifest plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse” And these two verses are referring to those in the world WHO may never have heard the Jewish law, before the birth and death of Christ, and even after. There are still native ciltures beinf discovered in places throughout the world where civilization has not yet reached them, and I continued to subject that God will judge them differently than those who have heard the Gospel message.

I am not suggesting that God will in any way ignore man's innate sin nature .... but for those who had no way of knowing about the God of the Bible, their judgement will be based on an inherent moral standard! To not believe in an inherent moral standard is to agree with an atheist who says that there is no Creator. That we came from a glob in a murky mud pond, and that there is no moral standard placed within us by a HOLY, Righteous Creator.

Judith, you know me not ... but like another member of this board, you have set yourself up as the FINAL all-knowing word and expert on the Word of God! Let me warn you that you are no more ALL KNOWING of what is and isn't the truth, than I am or anyone else. We all have a lot to learn, for you to tell another that their opinion and views are JUST PLAIN WRONG sets you up as the FINAL word on what God says and what it means; and it shows me that you need to learn some Christ-like people skills!FURTHERMORE I find your response to my comments highly presumptuous, and it is treading on the border of telling the rest of us that "you are THE JUDGE, so everyone else take note," thus sayeth Judith!

Others will have another opinion. It is fine to disagree with us, but you go one step toooooooo far, and I for one resent your holier than thou attitude! Debates will have other views and opinions. NNE PERSON will ever be totally right. If that is true the rest of us on the baord may as well just quit trying, and wait on baited breath for you and Zaac to tell us all how to live according to your understanding of what the Word says and means and how to apply it in our life!

I am no more an advocate of salvation by works that you are the president elect of the SBC!

And God bless you too! I didn't mean to come off at you with anger, but I am so tired of people acting like they have all the answers. I do not know if I have any wyas near even half the answers, and I am sure God will be saying, "Paul, Paul ....you really missed the mark on that one!" But, one thing I know for sure, missing the mark may be a sin, but it is not the sin that God says, "You're out of here!" for believing! GBU

 

Don't be ABSURD, John!

John go back and read what I said. I said quite clearly, that for those whonever had the opportunity to hear the Gospel, and before then, the Jewish laws, God will judge by the inherent ability of mankind to recoginise that they have a higher being to answer to. The inherent truth of civilations to worship a god prior to OUR GOD being presented to them, is evident in the archeological findings of civilizations having worship everything from Golden calves to bugs and the sunb, for example.

Your efforts, because of being in a totally different time and age, do not fall under God judging mankind by their inherent understanding of right and wrong, and recognizing a higher power!

All of them will be judged by a different standard, IMHO, but not true of the people since the Gospel has been taken forth to all parts of the world!

Think about this, John, You mentioned Budha, and others, those civilizations develped these other gods prior to the Gospel coming their way, and they did it because within them, God created all mankind to sense and pay respect to a moral, governing being! Sure their gods are false and wrong, but it supports the inherent moral standard within us, and it was that standard that led them to develop their gods and the rules governing how they worshipped those gods and how they lived amongst each other and treated one another.

Once the Gospel came to their lands, God moved them from one standard of belief to the only true one, HIS!

So, no you have not wasted 33 years, but you seem to have little knowledge of how and why those peoples developed a form of worship of other gods, when they had no knowledge of Jehovah. That evidence speaks volumes to God placeing an inherent hunger and knowledge of Him, they just didn't know the ways of Jehovah, because the world had no way of taking the laws of Israel to the ends of the earth way back then! The same is true for those who lived in this world before the Gospel was readily available.

Isn't it fascinating and rewarding to watch a devout Budhist turn to God? Or a Muslim to turn to God? I think it is, and the more they sense and believe in that inherent sense of a god, the easier it is to convert them! It is like a light turning on, and they seem to say, "Wow, there it was all the time, I just had the wrong name of God and the wrong teachings.

I have enjoyed watching Mormons and Catholics see the error of their religious ways. So, no you did not waste your time. You are merely bringing the truth to a false religion, but a relgion that started thousands of years ago, out of respect, fear and trembling, as these people of other faiths, worked out their way to be approved by who and what they called their god!

 

I think it is shocking how many here are stating or implying that someone can be saved without believing in Christ.

John of Japan is right: If God saves outside of the preaching, hearing, and believing of the Gospel, then he has indeed wasted his life. And, so have I, as a pastor.

If it is the case that God saves those who are ignorant of Christ, then the worst thing we can do is bring the Gospel to the ignorant, for by doing so we condemn those who do not believe.

It is ridiculous to suggest that anyone will be saved outside of hearing the Gospel and responding to it in repentance and faith. It is ridiculous to suggest that ignorance is a way of salvation. Those who are suggesting these things don't have one scriptural leg to stand on.

[12] For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. [13] For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” [14] How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? [15] And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” [16] But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” [17] So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. (Romans 10:12-17 ESV)​

The Archangel

 

The Living Bible? For real? You're resorting to The Living Bible?

That's not at all what Paul said, that's 100% the corrupted paraphrase of Ken Taylor.

I agree. Christ speaks of these people in Jn 10:16 (other sheep I have, which are not of this fold); Isaiah writes of them in 54:1 (more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife); Paul again in Col 1:26,27 (the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations, this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory); Paul again in Gal 4:26,27 (the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother, more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband); the psalmist in Ps 87 (of Zion it shall be said, This one and that one was born in her, Jehovah will count, when he writeth up the peoples, This one was born there.); and several other individual examples of regenerate non Jews outside the Mosaic covenant given in the scriptures (you’ve mentioned some of them).

in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2:15

....compare with 9:1:

I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit,


Again, you’re using one man’s corrupted paraphrase of what was actually written.

‘The work of the law written in their hearts’ is a supernatural act of God that we call REGENERATION, that is synonymous with the 'circumcision of the heart' in v 29, that also leads into the question posed in Ro 3:1.

If non-Jews who had not the law nor were hearers of the law could have the law written in their hearts, and if the real Jews were those that were circumcised in heart….what advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision? Ro 3:1

2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God. Ro 3
4 who are Israelites; whose is the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Ro 9

(notice that eternal life was not one of the advantages that the Jew had over the non-Jew)

Oh, I don’t think that at all. But the text of Ro 1 & 2 is virtually permeated with 'works' and 'doing' and 'practicing', and take note, the non-Jews of 13-15 are described as doers of the law as opposed to others in the text that are practicing evil. Why are they different? It’s because they are regenerate, born from the Zion above, real Jews, circumcised in heart, with the work of the law written in their hearts, which is exactly what the Church today is supposed to be comprised of, real Jews.

27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was due.
28 And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural affection, unmerciful:
32 who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also consent with them that practise them. Ro 1
1 Wherefore thou art without excuse, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judges another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest dost practise the same things.
2 And we know that the judgment of God is according to truth against them that practise such things.
3 And reckonest thou this, O man, who judgest them that practise such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2

 

Sure it is. Christ draws all men. How hard can that be to exegete? The Greek word is the same in both John 12 and 6.

Many hear the Gospel of Christ, Who is drawing them. But they reject it out of their own free will. Sorry, you'll not make a Calvinist out of me. :saint:

Luke 7:30--"But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the will of God for themselves, not having been baptized by him." (NKJV)

 

You're mistaken here. Idolatrous religions are a corruption of the worship of the true God according to the wickedness of man's heart, not according to their desire to find God. Idolatry is extreme immorality, against the first two of the Ten Commandments. At one time all people groups worshiped the true God, but the worship of the true God, when corrupted, becomes idolatry, which is then a movement away from God, not towards Him.

Example: The original religion of China was the worship of the true, monotheistic God 上帝, Shang Ti meaning "High Emperor" (called 天 Tien, or "Heaven" in Confucious). It was only as that faith was corrupted that idol worship began in China.

You did not say this before. Your post read as if you thought people in this church age could be saved apart from the Gospel. You reject that concept, correct? Do you agree that no one in 2014 is saved apart from the Gospel?

And again with this last statement you are sounding like you believe people can be saved without the Gospel in this age before the Gospel comes to them. Please clarify.

Well of course I haven't wasted my years here. :BangHead: I have never ever thought so.

Were you paying attention when I spoke of how evil non-Christian religions are? No human religion draws people to Christ, nor can it. It is impossible for that to happen because they are evil, deeply wicked teachings. There is no possibility whatsoever of someone being drawn to Christ through Buddhism, Shinto, Hindu, Islam, etc.

No, this has never, ever happened. I have never seen a Buddhist saved who did not consciously reject Buddhism. You are describing an impossibility here. People are only saved as the Holy Spirit works in their hearts to convict of sin, righteousness and judgment (John 16:8-11).

The difference here is that Mormons and Catholics have some knowledge of the God of the Bible. Buddhists and other Asian religionists have no such knowledge. Believe me, there is not a modicum of knowledge of the true God in the heart and mind of a devout Buddhist.

 

Another "pronouncement" that carries no weight outside of your own home. Thanks for checking in.