You are quite welcome dcon. ....I see several others noticed the same things in your posting.Glad I could help you. What would help even more would be a few good commentaries on Romans so you might gain biblical insight that has eluded you even though you are quite ready to straighten us out.
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You are quite welcome dcon. ....I see several others noticed the same things in your posting.Glad I could help you. What would help even more would be a few good commentaries on Romans so you might gain biblical insight that has eluded you even though you are quite ready to straighten us out.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
Should I need "straightening out" I'll seek out a good chiropractor, thanks. :laugh:
Theologically, I'm fine. Not a legalistic hair on my head, thank the Lord. But again, thanks for checking in.
many are trhe called, few are the chosen, so do think that we need to explore what is God intending in his general call to sinners, is it with intent to save them, or is that a special drawing unto his elect alone?
:1_grouphug:
:applause::1_grouphug: that was funny I have to give you that Dcon
:applause::1_grouphug: that was funny I have to give you that Dcon
Nothing draws sinners more than the fact that Jesus came down from heaven and became a man, lived a perfect life under the law, and then willingly died on the cross to bear our punishment and save us from our sins.
If that does not draw you, you indeed have a heart of stone.
But being drawn does not guarantee a man will come. Jesus compared himself to a fisherman.
Mar 1:17 And Jesus said unto them, Come ye after me, and I will make you to become fishers of men.
Every fisherman will tell you about the one that got away. You can pull and draw a fish right to your boat and he can jump off the hook and get away. And so it is with men, they can fight and resist and get away. And sometime the devil comes and steals them away.
Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
The lost hear, they are drawn, but the devil takes them away.
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One more attempt to say so you understand!
I will put this in a language that I believe you can better understand! :thumbs:
私はこの最後にもう一度言うよ。人々は、どんなに彼らが住んでいたものを、時間、ゴスペルやその社会や文化に存在しているユダヤ人の法律の贅沢を持っていなかった人は、善悪の理解を基づいて判断されず、どのように彼らはその生活を送っていました！彼らが利用できるようにしている聖書の贅沢を持っていた人々は、彼らが住んでいた時間や期間のreagrdlessは、彼らが福音のメッセージで何をしたかに応じて判断されます。そして、これは、イエスの前に生きている人にも適用されます。たとえばNinevitesはヨナからのメッセージを聞いて悔い改めた。しかし、それはその豪華さを持っていることは非常に少数の社会の一つであった、構成自体の探索道徳の標準は神がによってそれらを判断していることでしょう。 :wavey:
I will put this in a language that I believe you can better understand! :thumbs:
私はこの最後にもう一度言うよ。人々は、どんなに彼らが住んでいたものを、時間、ゴスペルやその社会や文化に存在しているユダヤ人の法律の贅沢を持っていなかった人は、善悪の理解を基づいて判断されず、どのように彼らはその生活を送っていました！彼らが利用できるようにしている聖書の贅沢を持っていた人々は、彼らが住んでいた時間や期間のreagrdlessは、彼らが福音のメッセージで何をしたかに応じて判断されます。そして、これは、イエスの前に生きている人にも適用されます。たとえばNinevitesはヨナからのメッセージを聞いて悔い改めた。しかし、それはその豪華さを持っていることは非常に少数の社会の一つであった、構成自体の探索道徳の標準は神がによってそれらを判断していることでしょう。 :wavey:
Take a pick brother, and tell me which version of the Bible and verse [quoted here] is to your liking? Romans 2:14
New International Version
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
New Living Translation
Even Gentiles, who do not have God's written law, show that they know his law when they instinctively obey it, even without having heard it.
English Standard Version
For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law.
New American Standard Bible
For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
King James Bible
For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Holman Christian Standard Bible
So, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, instinctively do what the law demands, they are a law to themselves even though they do not have the law.
International Standard Version
For whenever gentiles, who do not possess the Law, do instinctively what the Law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the Law.
Jubilee Bible 2000for when the Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature that which is of the law, these, not having the law, are a law unto themselves;
King James 2000 BibleFor when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
American King James VersionFor when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law to themselves:
American Standard Version
(for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
Douay-Rheims BibleFor when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature those things that are of the law; these having not the law are a law to themselves:
Darby Bible Translation
For when [those of the] nations, which have no law, practise by nature the things of the law, these, having no law, are a law to themselves;
English Revised Version
for when Gentiles which have no law do by nature the things of the law, these, having no law, are a law unto themselves;
Webster's Bible Translation
For when the Gentiles, who have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these having not the law, are a law to themselves.
Weymouth New Testament
For when Gentiles who have no Law obey by natural instinct the commands of the Law, they, without having a Law, are a Law to themselves;
World English Bible(for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves,
Young's Literal Translation
For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law -- to themselves are a law;
You said - "That's not at all what Paul said, that's 100% the corrupted paraphrase of Ken Taylor."
I say, back that up with proof that will impress me ... because your statement means nothing to me, because I know, no Ken Taylor. For all I know, it may be the person pointing the finger at this Taylor guy that is corrupted. I'd like to know why you made such a bold statement! :flower:
I appreciate your response, brother, but let me say, when it comes to versions of the Bible, I use numerous versions to get a good understanding of what the author is saying, and I just happened to believe TLB version I quoted from gave a good snap shot of the view from where I was looking! As you can see, in the numerous versions of just the one verse above, I see little to discredit my interpretation or the interpretation of TLB.
God bless .....
Well I have to admire your effort, which was obviously done through translation software. However, most of it is gibberish, as is often the case with these programs. At best such translation efforts are only able to give the gist of the original. At worst, as here, numerous errors in syntax and semantics hide the meaning. For just one example (which I was able to decipher) the software gave 住む (to dwell) instead of 生きる (to be alive).
Near as I can tell anyway, you did not answer my question with the Japanese paragraph.
Well,
I gave it the old heave ho try! Wish I was proficient like you in Japanese. God bless! If I'm wrong, it will be someone bigger and more awesome than you telling me, and I won't dare argue with Him! Likewise, this goes for you and many others on the board! I'll leave it there, because the amount of time it takes for the world to orbit the sun will not be changed with one of us being more correct than the other, and at least the place continues to orbit, regardless of whi is right or wrong!
素晴らしいSuntheサービスを持っている！日、神の存在は、あなたと一緒に可能性 :wavey:
I gave it the old heave ho try! Wish I was proficient like you in Japanese. God bless! If I'm wrong, it will be someone bigger and more awesome than you telling me, and I won't dare argue with Him! Likewise, this goes for you and many others on the board! I'll leave it there, because the amount of time it takes for the world to orbit the sun will not be changed with one of us being more correct than the other, and at least the place continues to orbit, regardless of whi is right or wrong!
素晴らしいSuntheサービスを持っている！日、神の存在は、あなたと一緒に可能性 :wavey:
NaasPreacher (C4K)
Well-Known Member
OFF TOPIC WARNING.
I know that is true John, but the Holy Spirit stepped in and let me use Google translate to share the gospel with a man for Taiwan who has very limited English. He understood nearly everything. I would ask you all to pray for his salvation.
BACK ON TOPIC.
This man asked me a similar question just Wednesday. I told him I believed that if a man was earnestly seeking Christ (like he was) God would provide a way for him to hear the gospel. I also shared that the important thing was that he was seeking God and God put him in contact with me (and my iPad
)
But God gives us exact information in the Bible that only through Christ can a person be saved: "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No man cometh unto the Father but by Me!" We don't have to wonder. Only the Gospel of Christ brings salvation.
Back translation: "The wonderful Sun has service! Sun, God's existence is possible along with yours."
Is that what you really mean? Sounds like sun worship. Just saying.
Amen! May the Lord save him. Google translation isn't perfect, but can get the message across, especially if it's the Gospel with the Holy Spirit helping.OFF TOPIC WARNING.
I know that is true John, but the Holy Spirit stepped in and let me use Google translate to share the gospel with a man for Taiwan who has very limited English. He understood nearly everything. I would ask you all to pray for his salvation.
BACK ON TOPIC.
This man asked me a similar question just Wednesday. I told him I believed that if a man was earnestly seeking Christ (like he was) God would provide a way for him to hear the gospel. I also shared that the important thing was that he was seeking God and God put him in contact with me (and my iPad
OK:
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ. Ro 2 ASV
You said:
To which I will reply again, that's not at all what Paul said, that's 100% the corrupted paraphrase of Ken Taylor.
OK, I'll do it for you:
The Living Bible (1971)
I reiterate the contrast from the text, "take note, the non-Jews of 13-15 are described as doers of the law as opposed to others in the text that are practicing evil".
These law-doer non-Jews are then contrasted with Jews:
25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision.
26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law?
Christ illustrated this contrast in parable form. The actions of the good Samaritan showed, IN DEED, the law written in his heart. The Jews, who had the law and were hearers of it, who also referred to Samaritans as dogs, stepped to the other side of the road and walked on by the poor man who had fallen to the robbers and needed help.
If you seriously believe that it is the default state of the natural man to have the law written in his heart then you don't hold to total depravity. You're pitting Paul against his own words later in this epistle, "For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing".
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I have a few questions.
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Acts 15:14
Is God still doing that? IMO, Yes. God isn't taking all, he is just taking out of them. I believe that is still going on today.
On the road to Damascus, was God taking all in the party with Saul or was he just taking Saul?
Is this relative to whether one is a believer or not a believer in the context of John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
The party going to Damascus. Were they all called and only Paul chose to believe?
I wonder if Saul had physically seen the risen Jesus prior to that day? Why did he all of a sudden believe that which he had heard said of Jesus prior to that day?
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. Acts 15:14
Is God still doing that? IMO, Yes. God isn't taking all, he is just taking out of them. I believe that is still going on today.
On the road to Damascus, was God taking all in the party with Saul or was he just taking Saul?
Is this relative to whether one is a believer or not a believer in the context of John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
The party going to Damascus. Were they all called and only Paul chose to believe?
I wonder if Saul had physically seen the risen Jesus prior to that day? Why did he all of a sudden believe that which he had heard said of Jesus prior to that day?
Nope, won't answer those questions!
Each Sunday morning I teach a bible class with a mixed group of people.
My co-teacher is a older Chinese seminarian businessmen (multilingual, English, Chinese, German, Hebrew, Greek, maybe some more that that I don't know).
We teach a class with a new believer who is an older foreigner woman of Asian decent, a well-educated middle-aged businessman, an elder of the church, a few married couples, and a group of alcoholics and drug abusers working their way through a 12-step program (good guys).
Anyway, the reason I mention this is because some of the best questions, the ones that provoke the most discussion are asked by those that are not driven by any particular theological position - the Asian woman and the alcoholics.
Percho, your questions remind me of the ones they ask.
They are excellent questions.
They are hard questions too!
I enclourage you to not forget them, in fact write them in your study notes and ponder them over time.
Spend some time researching the issues and come to your own conclusions.
Discover for yourself how God works.
...and be open to change.
Rob
Each Sunday morning I teach a bible class with a mixed group of people.
My co-teacher is a older Chinese seminarian businessmen (multilingual, English, Chinese, German, Hebrew, Greek, maybe some more that that I don't know).
We teach a class with a new believer who is an older foreigner woman of Asian decent, a well-educated middle-aged businessman, an elder of the church, a few married couples, and a group of alcoholics and drug abusers working their way through a 12-step program (good guys).
Anyway, the reason I mention this is because some of the best questions, the ones that provoke the most discussion are asked by those that are not driven by any particular theological position - the Asian woman and the alcoholics.
Percho, your questions remind me of the ones they ask.
They are excellent questions.
They are hard questions too!
I enclourage you to not forget them, in fact write them in your study notes and ponder them over time.
Spend some time researching the issues and come to your own conclusions.
Discover for yourself how God works.
...and be open to change.
Rob
Two points:
1. It always amuses me when a scoffer or a universalist uses the old "what about the native in darkest Africa who has never heard of Christ?" One approached me with just that question about 10 years ago. I asked, "Are you really concerned for the souls of those who have never heard of Christ or are you just fashioning an argument you believe to be unanswerable?"
He said, "I really care!" So I asked him, "When are you leaving?" End of discussion!
2. True story. My first home church, where I was saved and baptized, and called to preach, had a retired missionary from Africa as the Senior Citizen Pastor. He was about 80 years old and was a 3rd generation missionary to Africa. His grandparents served there as did his parents, and he was born in Pretoria.
He recounted a story of a drive from Pretoria north into the bush to start a remote mission station to reach out to the villages in that area. A businessman in his church in Pretoria had given him a 35 year old Rolls Royce to drive out into the bush.
On the way the old Rolls broke an axle. The missionary and the deacon he had brought along for companionship, safety, and to have a prayer partner, started out on foot to try to find someone who could direct them to an area that had either a post office or even a telephone.
After walking for two days they approached a village of about 200 people living in the mud huts common to that area. None of the people would come out of their huts (they later found out they had never seen a white man before), but one old man came running down the middle of the street shouting to them. The missionary and the deacon both spoke some of the native languages so they kept trying different dialects until they found one both of them understood.
The old man was saying, "Are you the messengers the Sky Spirit sent to tell me what he wants me to do?" He went on, "I have been praying to him ever since I was a boy and lay out watching my father's cattle and marveling at the beauty of the night sky."
Well, the missionary said, "Yes, we are the messengers" and preached Christ and Him crucified. They started a small mission church and within a year there were over 1000 people meeting on Sunday morning, most of whom walked in from the surrounding villages.
God answers prayer, even when the one praying doesn't know Who he is praying to.
Post script to the story. When they finally found a telephone they called the Rolls Royce dealer in Pretoria and told him of the problem. He sent a tow truck to get the Rolls and gave the two men a lift back to Pretoria.
The dealer had to send to England to get a new axle which took over 2 months. When the dealer called the church to tell the missionary his car was ready, he and the deacon went to the dealer with the intent of setting up a way to pay for the repair and the long tow over time.
When they arrived the dealer handed them the keys and wished them a good day. The missionary asked how much the bill was. The dealer asked "The bill for what?"
The missionary said, "For the broken axle."
The dealer replied, "You must be mistaken, sir. Rolls Royces don't break axles." Turned and walked away.
We have a great God!
1. It always amuses me when a scoffer or a universalist uses the old "what about the native in darkest Africa who has never heard of Christ?" One approached me with just that question about 10 years ago. I asked, "Are you really concerned for the souls of those who have never heard of Christ or are you just fashioning an argument you believe to be unanswerable?"
He said, "I really care!" So I asked him, "When are you leaving?" End of discussion!
2. True story. My first home church, where I was saved and baptized, and called to preach, had a retired missionary from Africa as the Senior Citizen Pastor. He was about 80 years old and was a 3rd generation missionary to Africa. His grandparents served there as did his parents, and he was born in Pretoria.
He recounted a story of a drive from Pretoria north into the bush to start a remote mission station to reach out to the villages in that area. A businessman in his church in Pretoria had given him a 35 year old Rolls Royce to drive out into the bush.
On the way the old Rolls broke an axle. The missionary and the deacon he had brought along for companionship, safety, and to have a prayer partner, started out on foot to try to find someone who could direct them to an area that had either a post office or even a telephone.
After walking for two days they approached a village of about 200 people living in the mud huts common to that area. None of the people would come out of their huts (they later found out they had never seen a white man before), but one old man came running down the middle of the street shouting to them. The missionary and the deacon both spoke some of the native languages so they kept trying different dialects until they found one both of them understood.
The old man was saying, "Are you the messengers the Sky Spirit sent to tell me what he wants me to do?" He went on, "I have been praying to him ever since I was a boy and lay out watching my father's cattle and marveling at the beauty of the night sky."
Well, the missionary said, "Yes, we are the messengers" and preached Christ and Him crucified. They started a small mission church and within a year there were over 1000 people meeting on Sunday morning, most of whom walked in from the surrounding villages.
God answers prayer, even when the one praying doesn't know Who he is praying to.
Post script to the story. When they finally found a telephone they called the Rolls Royce dealer in Pretoria and told him of the problem. He sent a tow truck to get the Rolls and gave the two men a lift back to Pretoria.
The dealer had to send to England to get a new axle which took over 2 months. When the dealer called the church to tell the missionary his car was ready, he and the deacon went to the dealer with the intent of setting up a way to pay for the repair and the long tow over time.
When they arrived the dealer handed them the keys and wished them a good day. The missionary asked how much the bill was. The dealer asked "The bill for what?"
The missionary said, "For the broken axle."
The dealer replied, "You must be mistaken, sir. Rolls Royces don't break axles." Turned and walked away.
We have a great God!
Most everything we have of Paul is to the church of God, however we do have his sermon at Mars Hill. I find it most interesting.
Is there really an alter call? There is a command to all men, everywhere.
Yet we have some, by name, that believed something.
Maybe Acts 15:14 in action?
Is there really an alter call? There is a command to all men, everywhere.
Yet we have some, by name, that believed something.
Maybe Acts 15:14 in action?
You continue to miss my point, John. I am not saying that since the Gospel has made it's way around the world, that there is another way! We both know He is the only way.
BUT, there were people(s) who did not have the advantage of knowing or hearing the Gospel, or from a Jewish prophet or teacher the need to repent, and it is for those that I believe the Romans. verse says, they will be judged by their actions and what they did and how they lived and applied the inherent/innate moral standards God placed with all mankind ... If that is too farfetched for you to understand, I am sorry!
But there are people who have lived, and had no way of knowing the God of the Gospel of Jewish commandments, and these folks will be given a look for reasons beyond the Gospel message.
Paul clearly breaks people down into three groups and how and on what principle they will be judged.
First group [heathens/pagans where the laws or Gospel were never made available], "He will punish sin wherever it is found. He will punish the heathen when they sin, even though they never had God’s written laws, for down in their hearts they know right from wrong (the moral standard inherently born with all mankind). God’s laws are written within them; their own conscience accuses them, or sometimes excuses them."
Next, the Jews. "And God will punish the Jews for sinning because they have his written laws but don’t obey them. They know what is right but don’t do it."
And those under the period of grace, "After all, salvation is not given to those who know what to do, unless they do it. The day will surely come when at God’s command Jesus Christ will judge the secret lives of everyone, their inmost thoughts and motives; this is all part of God’s great plan, which I proclaim."
I am am to believe John 3:16, then I am believing that He never had it in His heart for ANYONE [heathen, pagan, gentile, and Jew] to perish! And He will judge them according to how they lived under the message of grace available at their time on this earth!
If you don't believe this John then tell me what He is going to do with those on a South Sea island; in the heart of the Amazon jungle, and hidden amongst some outback caves in Aussie land, let alone Africa?
Did God not make provisions for those who never had the luxury of hearing the Jewish laws, or the Gospel, and there were milions of them at one time!
Are you saying these people will be cast into hell by a righteous and just God who didn't want for ANYONE to perish, and again, this applies to those without the opportunity to hear about Jesus, or follow the laws of Moses!
As for the message, I wished you a blessed Sunday service. Sorry the translator is so bad! I will fire it and find a better and improved one! The strange thing is, thise software was developed in Japan! LOL
The blood of Christ means nothing, then ?
Huh!
You seem to be reading what you want to read, too! RSV of Romans 12:14-15 clearly states, "When Gentiles (heathens and pagans, prior to the blood be shed and the law being shared with them) who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts (this clearly supports the moral standard given to all mankind), while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them..."
The blood of Jesus means everything, but that blood was only shed 2,000 years ago.
:BangHead:
And if you guys want to refute the moral standard teaching, then please explain this from Romans 1:20-23 - (NRSV), "Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; for though they knew God (through what He made and they observed - not laws or the blood), they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools; and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles" [from a version other than the TLB, so no one blame Taylor].
You seem to be reading what you want to read, too! RSV of Romans 12:14-15 clearly states, "When Gentiles (heathens and pagans, prior to the blood be shed and the law being shared with them) who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts (this clearly supports the moral standard given to all mankind), while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them..."
The blood of Jesus means everything, but that blood was only shed 2,000 years ago.
:BangHead:
And if you guys want to refute the moral standard teaching, then please explain this from Romans 1:20-23 - (NRSV), "Ever since the creation of the world his eternal power and divine nature, invisible though they are, have been understood and seen through the things he has made. So they are without excuse; for though they knew God (through what He made and they observed - not laws or the blood), they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools; and they exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling a mortal human being or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles" [from a version other than the TLB, so no one blame Taylor].
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