On Baptism...

TO BELIEVE ALL CHRIST SAYS IS AN ACT IN FAITH. You do not believe all His says PERIOD and so not qualified to discuss faith and works. To obey is a work in faith. if you disobey you are not doing a work in faith DUH!
It is just this simple now, since I got all the BUNK out of the way....IS WATER BAPTISM NECESSARY yes or no? Is all He COMMANDS NECESSARY, yes or no? If you break even the least of His commands will you go to heaven YES OR NO? If you teach what HE CONSIDERS TO BE LEAST AS LEAST- CAN YOU GO TO HEAVEN IF HE SAYS TEACH ALL AS GREAT? It is clear He will judge what is least or great then, NO? I will follow the GREAT ONE for I , who am human -am in no position to teach anything He says as least because He is God and is GREAT! He spoke all into being. The Word of the Lord!

 

Do you think that Paul was contradicting Jesus in the passages from Romans that I quoted earlier? If so, you deny the inspiration of the Bible. If not, you must have a different interpretation of what Paul said. Me, I take what the Scripture says at face value.

Another good point was brought up earlier. If you feel that way about Baptism, why wouldn't you have the same attitude towards taking Communion? Why not go a step further and require us to obey the 630 laws of the Old Testament? Where does this slippery slope end? When do we let God's grace Be grace?

 

It depends what you mean by necessary. Are they necessary for a Christian to observe? Yes. Is every command necessary for salvation? No. What if someone is saved in their last moments and they cannot fulfill every command of Christ. Do they not go to Heaven? Did the thief on the cross fulfill every command of Christ?

You take verses out of context and twist their meaning. Let's look at John 3 since that is the passage you are most fixated on with regard to this doctrine.

Verse 1: We are introduced to Nicodemus and that sets the stage for the conversation he is about to have with Christ.
Verse 2: Nicodemus is searching for truth and tells Christ he knows that He is of God.
Verse 3: Jesus said you cannot enter the Kingdom of God unless you are born again.

Now, we need to stop for a minute because this is key. Born again. Born a second time in some way. Nicodemus understood that Christ meant a second birth but he does not understand how this is possible which brings us forward.

Verse 4: Nicodemus, confused by the born again, asks if we are somehow to reenter the womb.
Verse 5: Jesus answers saying that you must be born of water and spirit.

Now, the spirit is the second birth, the water is clearly the first birth. That is the logical progression Jesus is following. Yes, Nicodemus, you were born the first time of water (womb) but this new birth, the born again, is a spiritual, not physical, birth.

Verse 6 further confirms this interpretation by saying flesh is born of flesh and spirit is born of spirit. Water is interchanged with flesh but spirit remains. Why? Because water is talking about physical birth, not baptism.

That is the full context and proper interpretation of this passage.

 

Really, practice what you preach. If ONE person is capable of beating their views into ones head then Christ must be present in me. For it is obvious this is your playground and you all have managed to appear quite impotent . It must be that diluted gospel you preach! I am getting warnings from mods, and you say this is a forum of open discussion? It would seem what is too strong for you , you seek to silence in here. The only heresy in here is speaking that you are heresy! What Christ speaks,is that which poses a threat to your false doctrine. You fear that and is why the mods send messages . It is clear greater is He who is within me than he who is in this forum( the world)whose doctrine you preach!

Faith and Works are one as God is one, so is water and Spirit baptism and all He says is ONE!

James 2:14-26
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. (19 You believe that there is one God. You do well.) FAITH AND WORKS ARE ONE AS GOD IS ONE!

Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, (O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? )
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by( faith only.)

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, (so faith without works is dead also.)

AAAH! But you will all now go find some scripture to put against this when it is clear what is being said. THE SCRIPTURES DO NOT CONTRADICT SO IT MUST BE YOUR INTERPRETATIONS WHICH CONTRADICT SCRIPTURE. PERIOD!

NOT BY FAITH ALONE! (so faith without works is dead also.) This proves all your interpretations are wrong , FOR GOD IS NOT THE AUTHOR OF CONFUSION satan is. You preach a satanic doctrine when you cut OUT any part of the TEACHINGS OF SALVATION, and Christ is that SALVATION!

No wonder why you run in circles chasing your tails. You corrupt the TRUE DOCTRINE to make yourselves lords. CHRIST IS LORD! Not any of you! Your house is a house of straw and has just been burned down before you -by me in Christ. Wait till the judgment!

 

Just curious. How do you view Ephesians 2:8-9? It flat out says we are saved by faith and not of works. How does that reconcile with James in your view?

 

You are getting warnings due to your cars behavior and calling ppl, in a not so thinly veiled fashion, lost.

 

Calling it as it is. ANYONE who thinks CHRIST DOES NOT FIGHT WITH THE SWORD OF HIS MOUTH, does not know Christ and His elect and chosen are His swords!

 

You post like savedbymercy, a guy who was banned a few years ago.

 

And also said God was the Author of sin.

 

I won’t matter dude...the rate you’re going they gon give youse das boot!

 

WOW, is it that you are REALLY STUPID OR WILLFULLY STUPID? Clearly your interpretation is wrong because the scriptures do NOT CONTRADICT themselves. Obviously there are works that are done in the flesh when NOT BORN AGAIN, like the CHRIST REJECTING JEWS DO and you , AND WORKS IN FAITH which those who believe in Christ do. Those who SAY YES TO CHRIST do so according to FAITH in which their works reflect. Wow just wow! We can not both be right. So since I know, I do not divide scripture against scripture, nor question one part and speak out against another part but KNOW they are one , then I am the one who is right. It is common sense. My interpretation therefore is from the Holy Spirit and yours is NOT. For all scripture is God breathed, therefore God is the AUTHOR AND INTERPRETER. And HE IS NO LIAR and does not have any shadow of contradiction. The father of lies does!

You interpretations are wack! Christ is the Good Shepherd and His know His voice. You obviously do not, and I certainly will NOT follow you and your shepherds. You all divide the Word up like dividing Christ's garments up and delve them out as you see fit amongst yourselves. I know a house divide cannot stand, and the SCRIPTURES ARE NOT A HOUSE DIVIDE AGAINST ITSELF!

 

My response to your comments regarding James. Christians throughout the ages have had issues with whether James contradicts the doctrine of "Faith Alone". James is telling us that good works is evidence of our salvation, but he never said that works are required for salvation.

You still haven't answered my questions from earlier, so I will insert them below:

 

He’s banned @Lodic.

 

I know he cannot respond but I wanted to post my rebuttal.

We agree.

We agree here as well, though I don't believe this is what you meant. James is not saying works are required for salvation, he is saying good works are a fruit of that salvation as evidenced to men.

Absolutely right, and I know you are not correct on this issue.

Actually, you are dividing the Scriptures against themselves. You did not deal with Ephesians at all, you glossed over it and simply said my interpretation must be wrong. The fact is, you are wrong. James is not saying salvation is based on works as I have already said. Paul made clear we are not saved by works. It is by Grace Alone through Faith Alone in Christ Alone to the Glory of God Alone and the Scriptures Alone tell us this.

 

The problem with this approach is that all (100%) of the early Christian writings say John 3:5 refers to baptism. The idea that Jesus was referring to physical birth did not arise until modern times and even now it is rejected by many Greek scholars, even those who don't think it is baptism.

 

In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to give evidence to his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith or that we are saved by works. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works is dead. If someone says-claims he has faith but lacks resulting evidential works, then he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3). Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works will be evidences for, or against a man's being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." This is the "sense" in which God was "justified." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:25, Rahab believed in the Lord with authentic faith (Joshua 2:9-13), requested "kindness" (2:12), received the promise of kindness (2:14), and hung out the "scarlet line" (2:21), as the demonstration of her authentic faith. She showed that her faith in God was not a dead faith by her works, just as all genuine believers show theirs.

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converges around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body emits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works (Ephesians 2:5-10).

*So man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-26).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

*It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-26). *Perfect Harmony*