Jesus was born under the law, under the Old Covenant relationship with the father, so He had to die and rise again to usher in the New Covenant relationship.
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On Board With Billy Graham
- Thread starter rockytopva
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Did any of the OT saints have the Holy Spirit in them?
No. First, remember that this was commanded to men who already had faith in Christ. We place no more demands on new converts than that which the Apostles placed.
It's sad to me that the simple truths I have laid out in this thread are ignored, and a continuance to focus on what we do to be saved remains the constant norm in Modern Christendom. You have a man that is supposed to be a Baptist Minister in agreement...with a Catholic. That is a sad testimony.
It's apparent you have not read the thread. If you want to understand my position please do so.
Am I to understand that you are trying to say that baptism in water is necessary for salvation? The thief was just an "exception?" Please clarify your position on this, if you don't mind.
And how you can make the thief's acknowledgement that he was a sinner equate to baptism is beyond me. A ver simple lesson in John's baptism, which was a biptism "unto" repentance, is that those who were baptized...
...had already repented.
They didn't get repentance by being baptized.
He rebuked those whose lives reflected the false profession:
Matthew 3
King James Version (KJV)
5 Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
6 And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.
7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
In other words, "Prove it!"
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
"Judgment is coming and your heritage (which was how Israel was in relationship to God in that Age) will benefit you nothing!"
10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
If you read the thread, I dealt with Peter's definition of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which teaches that this is the moment of salvation, when one receives the Holy Ghost in eternal indwelling.
John defines the two baptisms:
12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Being baptized by Christ (The Baptizer) speaks of eternal salvation, a gathering unto Christ; the baptism with fire is defined as Eternal Judgment.
Salvation is only accomplished by The Baptizer, Christ, and He uses the Holy Ghost in this baptism, not water.
Continued...
The Holy Spirit has always ministered in and through men for the purpose of empowering them for ministry, and guiding them in their walk with God. However, as we just read in John 14:15-18 and John 14:22-23 there is a difference between the Spirit being with men, and being in men. The indwelling of God was promised in the Old Testament in numerous prophecies, and if you read Acts 1:4-5 you will see Christ Christ tell the disciples they will receive this promise "not many days hence:"
Acts 1:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Peter remembers Christ's statement here:
Acts 11:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is when we are eternally redeemed and immersed into God, my friend.
And not even the Disciples of Christ received that in the Old Testament time-frame in which the Lord Ministered.
Christ was made under the Law, ministered under the Law, and within the framework of revelation provided to men in that day.
God bless.
Tell that to Jonah, lol.
Tell that to Paul on the road to Damascus.
Tell that to Peter when he rejects the Gospel preached by the Lord Jesus Christ and rebukes Him for suggesting He would die.
The only obedience God is interested in at this point, in regards to the natural man, is obedience to the Gospel, which means turning to Christ in faith:
Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)
24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
2 Thessalonians 1:7-8
King James Version (KJV)
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
The primary problem you are going to have in trying to demand obedience from natural men is this: they are completely unaware of the spiritual things of God, and in this Age, my friend, the Gospel stands at the top of the list.
Only God can open the natural mind that it might understand the Gospel, men cannot do that. While we do not hide the fact that discipleship is the result of salvation, we do not make it a prerequisite of salvation:
Ephesians 2:8-10
King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
As I said before, Jesus Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith. We are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, not by them. A Christian, according to Christ...will not fail to produce good works:
Matthew 7:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
John 15
King James Version (KJV)
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Now, let me ask you this: did the disciple continually abide in Christ after He gives this teaching?
Not at all, they were scattered just as the prophecies said they would be.
So I don't know where you come up with...
...but you didn't get it from the Lord's teachings.
And this is one of the inevitable results of a failure to distinguish the Lord's Ministry, which according to the Lord Himself...
Matthew 15:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
...was specific to Israel.
When we read of salvation events in Acts, we do not see men being given heavy burdens which Israel herself could not bear, we simply see them being saved the same way the Lord taught they would be...by believing on the Name of Jesus Christ:
John 3:14-16
King James Version (KJV)
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
After men are saved, then you disciples them. Before they are saved, all you have to do is convey the Gospel and let the Holy Spirit do the convicting.
Continued...
Yes...to those already converted, lol.
Show me where in Hebrews 11 or 12 we see such a teaching.
Tell that to Peter:
Acts 10:34-44
King James Version (KJV)
34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all)
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Note that what Peter does when he speaks "the words by which Cornelius and his household was saved is glorify Christ.
Not make demands of them.
I would be curious if your understanding would allow this...
Acts 16:29-31
King James Version (KJV)
29 Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
...to fall short of what we must "include with our presentations."
Continued...
"We" don't save men, my friend. God saves them, and it is a Gift given to men directly from Himself, lol.
Do you think we can interfere with God saving people? Does He look down and say, "Well, wanted that guy to be saved, but look, they didn't tell him about all the stuff he is going to have to do if he wants to be a Christian!"
Show me that in the New Testament.
Honestly, that is about as far from a Biblical understanding of salvation as one can achieve.
Really? "Let them decide?"
Again, Jesus Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith. "Finisher" means "Completer."
1 Corinthians 2:11-14
King James Version (KJV)
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
The Comforter was sent for the precise effort of convicting unbelievers who do not believe on Christ. Men cannot "choose" until God first shows them the truth. The bottom line being men do not comprehend the Gospel because we enlighten them to the truth, but because God does during this ministry in their hearts. We can preach the Gospel until the cows come home and if the Holy Spirit is not working in their hearts nothing will change.
Continued...
Sorry, but it is not.
The Gospel is always about Jesus Christ, that is what the Comforter speaks to men's hearts about:
John 16:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
Note that what He is teaching is not taking place at this time, but He foretells what will happen when He, the Comforter, is sent.
He will glorify Christ, first to believers, that they might be ministers of the Gospel.
The disciples at this point have been told information that they do not yet have a context in which to understand it. After the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Christ, His Ascension, and the sending of the Promised Spirit...they will immediately begin to obey His command to go out and make disciples.
And that is accomplished simply by conveying the Gospel.
Friend, the reason they ar going to liken your gospel to religion is because it is.
Religion tells men what they must do to be saved.
The Gospel tells men what Christ did to save them.
And what you are forgetting is that Christ is the Sower, lol.
You are making yourself the sower, as well as the one who prepares the soil, which departs from Christ's teaching. The soil is what it is, so where do you get the idea you plow the ground?
You can take this...
1 Corinthians 3:5-7
King James Version (KJV)
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
...as the direct teaching of Jesus Christ.
Continued...
Oh I see what you are trying to convey, yes, but sadly I must reject it as unbiblical, and departing from the teaching of Scripture.
And that is the inevitable result of merging the Ages which precede this one with this Age, and trying to impose into the Old Testament something that was not being given to men, nor received.
Speak for yourself.
I myself am just doing a little planting, a little watering, but giving God the glory for the increase.
Who proclaims anyone saved? That is just basic, we do not take for granted anyone is saved, this is why we...disciple.
That's an easy one...false teaching and poor leadership.
But that has always been the problem, even in Christ's Day. He hammered the "spiritual leadership" who didn't really care about the "flock" they had been given responsibility for. Why would we expect anything different today?
And one way to clarify a number of erroneous doctrines is to maintain a proper timeline of the progression of revelation and the bestowing of the promises of God.
It always amazes me that people cannot understand that both Jew and Gentile are now being baptized into Christ in this Age, and that it wasn't taking place before.
Not just the "big-shots," but the little guys as well. You know, those guys that show up on Christian Doctrinal Forums and teach heresies?
Every man will be held accountable for what he teaches, and the fact is, most churches these days have only religion to offer to people, because they corrupt the simplicity of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
The Gospel is not "Repent! for the Kingdom of God is at hand," or "take up your cross and follow me." It isn't about those in need of redemption...
...it's about the Redeemed.
And anyone that has a problem with that needs to do a little more study.
Well, if you can show one opinion I have offered, please do so. Just quote the Scriptural basis for it along with the quote. We will test whether it is sound doctrine or opinion.
But I just have to say, with what you have shared already, and a brief read through of what you say later, you are in fact in no position to be condemning anyone. It seems that you, just like Baptist Believer, have gotten the Gospel of the Kingdom, which was given to Israel only (just as the Law was), confused with the Gospel of Christ. The simple solution for that is to learn to distinguish what is physical (Manna) and what is spiritual and eternal (The True Bread). One gives eternal life, and the other is a physical provision from a previous Age.
That is the number one reason why we see so much false teaching today.
Continued...
I want you to carefully consider that Christ demanded of men that they believe on Him, right?
Now show me one person doing that.
Don't say the disciples, because although they did in fact have it revealed to them that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God, not one of them was "believing" on Christ as the Risen Savior.
John 6:51-53
King James Version (KJV)
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
What Christ is teaching here is that except a man believe on His Sacrifice of Himself, the Cross of Christ, then he...
...has no life.
The thing to understand, my friend, is that Christ came to bestow eternal life. The implication...it was not being bestowed prior to His coming, and it was not being bestowed prior to His death, burial, and Resurrection.
No man was born again prior to the Resurrection:
1 Peter 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
We see that in John 1 as well:
John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
How?
Titus 3:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
I am not trying to be rude, just stating what I see: you deny Biblical Salvation in Christ with the message conveyed in this post.
Do you see in John 13, above, that it is not the will of man by which we are born of God through? Not of blood (heritage), not of the will of the flesh (the individual determining for himself he will be born of God), and not of the will of man (an individual determining for another man he will be born of God).
And God uses the Gospel to bring about salvation, which is Reconciliation with God, eternal indwelling of God, and the subsequent new creature who, unlike above in John 6, now has eternal life because He Who is Eternal now indwells them:
James 1:18
King James Version (KJV)
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
1 Peter 1:22-23
King James Version (KJV)
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Ephesians 5:25-27
King James Version (KJV)
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Continued...
It's okay, I understand. Your gospel is not unfamiliar to me. I see it not just in the gospel of the Catholic, but that of the Protestant, that of the Mormon, and that of the Jehovah's Witness.
Again, you need to understand...we do not make wheat. God does. So you can pat yourself on the back for "giving the whole truth" to those you preach your gospel to, but when you find them being religious, you will know why, lol.
Actually it is not. I don't have the luxury of "deciding" what Scripture teaches, it is my job, and yours, to find out what Scripture teaches, and then convey those truths to men.
And what I find with your responses is the same thing I find with most...no address of the points raised.
Why not? If you are so confident of your doctrine, why not show me why I am in error.
Do you think, like Baptist Believer, a few loose quotes is going to convince...anyone?
I have given you my doctrine and the Scripture I feel supports it, and made numerous points which to day not one person has shown to be in error. Not one.
So take up the challenge, and address the points. We can start with why you think the disciples of Christ had eternal life prior to being baptized into Christ.
God bless.
This is not correctly relaying the context of my statement, and I explained afterwards that I was not saying Christ never spoke the Gospel (though it may well be this response was given while I was still addressing the other numerous posts, so I am not implying you ignored that response, you may not have received it prior to your abandonment of the discussion).
The context of my statement is in direct correlation to the fact that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery, not revealed to Ages past, to generations past, to the Saints (the Old Testament Saints of the past Ages and generations), to the sons of men (which is all inclusive of all men prior to the Revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ), and that it was the hidden wisdom not revealed to men since the beginning of the world, and is now...now...revealed by the Spirit to His holy Apostles and Prophets.
Hence the statement...
"Show me Christ preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Gospels, that's all you have to do. A few occasions where He speaks of His death, burial, and Resurrection does not equate to what you are trying to make it be, which is that Christ was going around preaching the Gospel of Christ, which is that He (would) die, be buried, and rise again."
You say you "easily demonstrated that:"
It's already been done.
"Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand."
"Follow Me."
Mark 8:31-38
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
Sounds good, but the singular problem you have is not once have you reconciled Paul's teaching with yours:
Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)
24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
That's just one of several teachings of Paul that make it clear that th Mystery of the Gospel was not being revealed in the past.
So while it is not unusual for someone to think God has given them better understanding than that of Paul, it still remains as absurd as it always is.
You have not addressed the unbelief of the Disciples, either before the Resurrection...
Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
...or after...
Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
If Christ rebukes them for unbelief, and Scripture states they were unbelieving in the Resurrection...
...then that is the fact of the matter.
When you think you can address these two points, let me know. If you can smooth out your ruffled feathers, set aside your pride, and be obedient to the command of Jesus Christ, that is:
Acts 1:8
King James Version (KJV)
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Or do you simply minister to those you choose to minister to? If you think I am wrong, is it not your responsibility to address my error?
Continued...
Jesus and Paul "lived in the same generation?"
What is that even supposed to mean? Christ died and arose before Paul was even saved, remember?
Again, you do not quote the first Scripture I have given as a basis for Paul's teaching that the Mystery of Jesus Christ was not revealed in past Ages, which would include the Age of Law, under which Christ ministered.
So let's look at your Scripture:
Mark 4:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
Did they understand the mysteries of the Kingdom?
Mark 4:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?
What Kingdom were the Jews familiar with?
I'll give you a hint:
Acts 1:6-7
King James Version (KJV)
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
He is not talking about the Kingdom which we are translated into at salvation:
Colossians 1:13
King James Version (KJV)
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Like I said several times, Christ ministered under the Law, and within the framework of the revelation provided to men in that day. That is the Kingdom Nicodemus thinks they are speaking about in John 3.
So in this discussion I have addressed your "support" for your position, yet you, nor has anyone...addressed my own. Show how your teaching nullifies the fact that the Gospel of Jesus Christ was veiled in mystery, unrevealed until Pentecost.
You can't. No-one can, because it is just a basic truth taught by Paul.
Understanding of the Gospel was withheld from men until the appointed time:
Titus 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness;
2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
3 But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
Hebrews 1
King James Version (KJV)
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
1 Peter 1:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
You are correct, I have delivered an avalanche of Scripture. The reason? Because there are so many passages which testify of what I have presented.
Continued...
Again, that is what Scripture teaches:
Acts 1:4-8
King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
And what follows? The disciples receive the Promised Spirit they had heard of from Christ...and immediately begin preaching the Gospel.
And if you read Acts 2 you will see that Peter preaches...Christ crucified and resurrected. And it was those who received the Gospel...
Acts 2:41
King James Version (KJV)
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.
Now, see the Promised Spirit mentioned again:
Acts 2:29-33
King James Version (KJV)
29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
See how consistent that is with what Christ taught?
Now let's look a little closer at that which the disciples had "heard of Christ (Acts 1:4):
John 14:25-29
King James Version (KJV)
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.
John 15:26-27
King James Version (KJV)
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
John 16:12-14
King James Version (KJV)
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
The future fulfillment of these teachings is seen in the teachings themselves, as well as in the statement of the Lord in Acts 1:4-5. Again, we see the disciples immediately begin to preach the Gospel, and the Church begins being built.
Continued...
Hey thanks!
But it is pretty easy to assert something that Scripture speaks about so much.
And you have two assertions in this one statement, 1) that men received the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ from the Promised Spirit, the Comforter, and 2) that men could not and will never be eternally redeemed apart from the shed blood (death) of Christ:
The First Assertion...
1 Corinthians 2:7-10
King James Version (KJV)
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
1 Peter 1:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.
Very clear, no?
The Second Assertion:
Romans 3:21-26
King James Version (KJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
But if you want to teach that the blood of bulls and goats resulted in the Old Testament Saints obtaining Eternal Redemption, which is precisely what you do, that is on your head. If you want to teach, contrary to Christ's teaching that men were already receiving eternal life, then you will have to reconcile that with Christ teaching that He came to give life to men, and that no-one who did not eat of His flesh and drink of His blood had life, well, go ahead. If you want to teach that the forgiveness of sins which is everlasting, which was but a promise in the Old Testament, was being received by men, okay. If you want to teach that men were being reconciled to God prior to God being in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself, feel free.
That's what most do, so you will be in good company, and will not fail to have others to agree with your teaching.
But, if you want to teach what Scripture teaches, then you must yield to these simple truths and allow the Word of God to speak to men for you.
Continued...
It was true before the Lord ascended:
Acts 1:4-8
King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
This is the Promised Spirit of Prophecy.
And the key passage of Old Testament promise of the indwelling of God and New Birth is seen here:
Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Just simple truth.
Continued...
What is not logical is that you have been shown many times that the disciples did not have the Gospel revealed to them, had not embraced the Gospel, and in fact did not believe the Lord when He gave them the Gospel either before or after the Cross and Resurrection...yet you continue to ignore the very clear statement of the Word of God.
Before:
Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)
20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
John 16:28-32
King James Version (KJV)
28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.
29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.
30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.
31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
After:
Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)
9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
Luke 24:25-26
King James Version (KJV)
25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
Luke 24:36-39
King James Version (KJV)
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, .and supposed that they had seen a spirit
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
The belief in v.8 is not belief that He had risen, but belief that He was not in the tomb.
Verse 9 makes it clear...they did not yet know the Scripture that He should rise from the dead.
Continued...
False argument. I never said their names were not written in Heaven, lol.
Nor have I denied that men were saved in the Old Testament.
The distinction is between men being justified and being Eternally Redeemed.
How can you say they were "aware of the Gospel" when...
John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)
8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.
9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.
How can you deny Paul's teaching about the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
He did, but there is a difference between a man being justified, declared righteous, based on what he does and being justified by the Work of Christ:
Again:
Romans 3:21-26
King James Version (KJV)
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
Now why is Abraham declared righteous here...
Romans 4
King James Version (KJV)
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Two points which deny your gospel, 1) Abraham was declared righteous based on his belief, and that by grace (not taking up his cross, repenting, following Christ), and 2)...
...it is Abraham's faith that is counted for righteousness.
So why did Christ need to come?
To atone for Abraham's sin, to reconcile Abraham to God, to immerse Abraham into God that he might have everlasting life. Again, Christ came to give that life, and you impose that into Abraham's day.
If you will just read the quote from Romans 3...you should be able to distinguish between a man being credited with righteousness for faith and belief and a man being freely justified through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.
Do you really believe Abraham had already received the Atonement? Scripture does not teach that:
Romans 5:11
King James Version (KJV)
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
Continued...
I would agree, that is indeed the essence of New Testament Faith, but, men are no longer justified by general faith and obedience to God (Hebrews 6:1-2), but are justified by God through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus:
Galatians 3
King James Version (KJV)
3 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
Galatians 4
King James Version (KJV)
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.
As I said, it's Biblical to tell someone to ask Jesus into their heart.
And the distinction between those under Law and those in relationship to God through the New Covenant (from which we receive the Provision of the God which was but promise in the Old Testament Economies) is quite clear:
7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
Continued...
The reason I insert the relevant Scripture is that people are not likely to look up a reference.
My rebuke of the "vague quote" is given because you false claim support from two entire chapters, lol.
You are not going to respond to them because you cannot "respond to them."
That is just a fact.
Continued...
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