On Board With Billy Graham

[Darrell C]

It was impossible.

You can't have men believing on something that hasn't happened, and has not yet been given unto men to understand.

The Old Testament is filled with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, yet...


John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

Except John did. And the women. And just about everyone who met the risen Christ.

Twaddle.

Matthew 11
King James Version (KJV)

2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?


John preached the truth of Christ but like the other Old Testament Prophets did not have what he preached revealed to him:


1 Peter 1:9-12
King James Version (KJV)

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Let me ask you a simple question, BB, do you think men can be eternally redeemed and not be indwelt eternally by God, as He now does, which He did not do prior to the coming of the Comforter, the Promised Spirit of Prophecy?

Yes. And not only men, but women and children.

Paul made a big deal about it in Galatians 3 and Romans 4.

Nothing in either Chapter that nullifies the numerous passages which show that no man was eternally redeemed in the Old Testament.

You have to answer the question "By what were they redeemed by?" If you say they were "saved on credit" then perhaps you could find that particular popular pulpit mythology in Scripture for me.

Secondly, one of the most basic elements of Eternal Salvation is the introduction of life into those who are dead. You will have to show me how, when John makes it clear in the first chapter that men began to be born of GOd (thus becoming sons of God) after the Incarnation, men obtained eternal life.

It is not enough to say "God is the God of the living," for the Lord rebuked Sadducees for their error of annihilation. To still be in existence after death is not equable to having the Life which Christ came to bestow. And there are many in Hades to this day who can testify of that.

And I think that is all for the evening, but again, enjoying this tremendously.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

But he was not eternally forgiven, eternally redeemed, eternally indwelt member of the Body of Christ. He would fall into the category of a just spirit made perfect:

He did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit yet, but he was "saved." And that was the original issue, but you have been shifting the issue throughout the conversation.

The original issue was the Gospel preached by Billy Graham, and you took a diminutive attitude towards a Gospel that wasn't works-based enough (shown by your statements which are clearly Cross-Plus.

As far as my Doctrine, as I have said, I consistently teach the same Doctrine on this forum, and there is nothing different in this thread than you will find in any other thread, or on any other forum.

The thief on the Cross would not be eternally redeemed until after Christ's death, when he would be, postmortem, immersed into Christ, his sins now having been paid. While on the Cross, he was not an...

But he was not eternally forgiven, eternally redeemed, eternally indwelt member of the Body of Christ. He would fall into the category of a just spirit made perfect:

And we do not see the Lord saying "Say, do you promise to be a disciple?" Will you take up your cross? Truly the man was repentant, no question, but, the point I am trying to drive home is we cannot equate a man being justified by belief and faith in revelation not specifically conveying the Gospel to Eternal Redemption accomplished not just by Christ's death, but His Resurrection.

The thief on the Cross did not, while he was alive...receive the promises. He was not made perfect through that faith.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Strawman.


No one claims anything else.


Strawman.

Are you simply creating endless posts of scriptural citations so that you don't have to admit you are wrong?

It's not up to me to show why I am wrong, it is up to you.

And every quote is relevant to the discussion at hand, and addresses the points or comments you make (mostly comments, lol).

And these posts are not just for your benefit, my friend. They are for anyone interested enough to read.


God bless.

 

[Baptist Believer]

This is my final post in this thread. It is supposed to be about Billy Graham, but I go caught up in trying to answer your false accusations, naively thinking that you were going to actually pay attention to what I wrote and respond to those points. Instead you posted an avalanche of scripture, made numerous false accusations and irrelevant points based on positions I do not hold and conveniently skipped over everything that demonstrated that you were mistaken.

No doubt you will disagree and go off on another post making more assertions, so I am under no illusions that you will leave this alone. But since you believe these posts are for the benefit of "anyone interested enough to read," I will make a final summary for others:

I originally made the comment that "I was not crazy about the transactional-style gospel message [Billy Graham] presented, where one asks Jesus to be one's 'Savior.'" and quoted a bit of Bonhoeffer.

Darrell C took exception to that and quoted Revelation 3:20, making a reference to a church into a reference into an invitation to an individual. I pointed that out and clarified my position:

Jesus calls us to discipleship, not to passivity. Asking "Jesus into our hearts" is better than nothing, but it is a poor way of presenting the gospel. I would rather go with a biblical example, such as "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand", "Follow Me", or "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me", which all paint essentially the same picture.​

With that, Darrell C assumed that I was adding "works" to the gospel message. I pointed out that it was exactly the message that Jesus preached, but Darrell C started promoting the idea that Jesus didn't preach the gospel because, apparently, He had not been crucified, resurrected, ascended, and given the "Baptist of the Holy Ghost" yet. He further maintained that people who followed Jesus were not yet redeemed/saved, because Jesus had not yet died for them. I pointed out that he was "not quite" correct with a paraphrase of Romans 5:10 (which I also gave the reference), that we are reconciled to God through His death, but actually saved by His life. That apparently really set Darrell C off, because he then isolated the "not quite" part of my response and made the wildly false claim that I was diminishing the cross and Christ, and that I was "adding works" to the cross. It just degenerated from there, with all kinds of strawmen false claims and ad homenim assertions.

Probably lost in all of that are a couple of points Darrell C obscured with his voluminous posts:

(1) I do not teach works as a means of salvation, no matter how Darrell C interprets my words. I am simply using the language that Jesus used as He preached the gospel. I pointed out that Darrell C makes the common mistake of equating "effort with earning." That we are not in a position to earn anything and that the attitude of earning does not permit us to receive grace. However, we are to expend effort to do the things that Jesus called us to do.

(2) Darrell C maintains that Jesus did not preach the "gospel of Jesus Christ", but instead preached under "the Law" since He had not yet made atonement for the sins of humankind. He asserts that the gospel of Jesus Christ was revealed through Paul, not Jesus. I maintain that Jesus preached the nearness and availability of the Kingdom of God, and that it is exactly the same thing as the gospel of Jesus Christ. I have also demonstrated the consistent teaching of the kingdom from John the Baptist to Jesus to the earliest disciples of Jesus, to the early church, and to Paul. I have not been able to find where Darrell C has dealt with that post.

(3) Darrell C made this strange challenge: "Show me Christ preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Gospels, that's all you have to do. A few occasions where He speaks of His death, burial, and Resurrection does not equate to what you are trying to make it be, which is that Christ was going around preaching the Gospel of Christ, which is that He (would) die, be buried, and rise again." Of course, the very way the challenge is worded shows that Jesus did exactly that, that He would die, be buried and rise again. I easily demonstrated that.

(4) Darrell C asserted that the gospel of Christ was "a mystery" that was not revealed until after the earthly ministry of Jesus. He is apparently unaware that Jesus and Paul lived in the same generation, and the Jesus revealed the mystery to His disciples (Mark 4:11). Darrell C believed that a major "proof" that Jesus did not preach the gospel was that no one believed that Jesus was resurrected, except that some did. Scripture explicitly says that John the apostle believed when he saw the empty tomb (John 20:10), and almost all those who encountered the risen Lord believed, starting with the women to more than 500 at once. Therefore his premise fails.

(5) Darrel C has tried valiantly to assert that people could not have received the gospel without receiving the indwelling of the Holy Spirit -- that they could not be "eternally redeemed through the shed blood of Jesus Christ." Today, that is true. At the time - a time of transition - the Spirit was given after the Lord had ascended. However, it does not logically follow that the disciples of Jesus were unaware of the gospel and had not believed it up to that point, and that their names were not written in heaven (Luke 10:20 makes that explicitly clear). Moreover, that view does not allow God, Who knows exactly what He is going to do, to consider anyone righteous before the time and space event of the crucifixion, resurrection, ascension, and pouring out of the Spirit upon all people. Paul pointed out in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 (Darrell C criticized me for not quoting Paul's whole lengthy arguments calling the citations, "vague quotes" -- I assume that he and everyone else knows how to read for yourself) that Abraham was justified by faith, outside of the Law, and that it is the essence of the New Testament faith, completely apart from the covenant/dispensation of the Law and chronologically well before Christ.

There's more I could say, but I'm sure Darrell C is going to jump all over this. I am not going to respond to them since I think I have made my points sufficiently clear.

I do not advocate for a "works" based salvation. Carefully read the gospels and notice how Jesus calls people into the kingdom. That's what we are supposed to do. Once you understand what Jesus is doing, you will see that Paul and the other New Testament writers are doing exactly the same thing.

That being said, God is quite merciful and will certainly receive anyone who submits to Him, even with a "Jesus as my personal Savior" appeal. However, that is not the fulness of the gospel message taught by Jesus, nor does it naturally lead to intentional discipleship. That was my original point before Darrell C started his avalanche of posts.

 

[Darrell C]

Your charismatic brethren would agree with you. Unfortunately, the Scriptures do not.

Nice dodge by trying to make me appear to say that I think the evidence of tongues is mandatory for being filled with the Spirit.

Nothing is implied except your charismatic brethren would agree with, and they would.

You said:

Or so unfamiliar with Acts that you do not understand that the disciples were not Baptized with the Holy Ghost (which Peter defines as the moment of salvation in Acts 11) until Pentecost?

Your interpretation of Peter's statement is quite faulty. Peter was pointing out that receiving the Holy Spirit is evidence of faith for those Gentiles, but saving faith existed before that event for those who were already disciples of Jesus. (Again, Abraham had saving faith before the Law and well before Jesus.) Peter was using the evidence that the Gentiles received the Spirit with the manifestation of tongues as evidence that the gospel was also for the Gentiles.

I have emphasized the part I responded to, but included your full statement to show the context which brought about the remark. To the emphasis I responded...

Your charismatic brethren would agree with you. Unfortunately, the Scriptures do not.

It makes little sense to say "Peter was pointing out that receiving the Holy Spirit is evidence for faith for those Gentiles," when in fact Cornelius was a man of faith held in such high regard by God that He arranged for Cornelius to have Peter sent to him that he might receive the Holy Ghost. So think about that.

Charismatics, like you, reverse the order of importance here. It's like the disciples, after being told "...you will be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence" ask, "Lord, will you at this time restore the Kingdom of Israel?"

Really? You are going to receive the Promised Spirit of Prophecy...and you are concerned about a physical kingdom?

And really? You just read that Cornelius heard the Words of Life, was baptized with the Holy GHost...

...and you are going to interject tongues in there? And say receiving the Holy Spirit proved they had faith?

That is not what Peter states, or what those he confers with state, they say...


Acts 11:18
King James Version (KJV)

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


There is no "You must take up your cross, follow Christ, and get busy for the Lord," its simply Peter speaking the words by which they were saved:


Acts 11:13-18
King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


They were saved while Peter spake the Gospel:


Acts 10:44-45
King James Version (KJV)

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.


The Gift of the Holy Ghost, not the gift of tongues. That is what is central to this event. And that is what Peter focuses on in Acts 11.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I have made no such claim.

Never said you did.

Your desperation is showing.

Quite true. I am always desperate to help my brothers understand better.

What Peter has said here is that the manifestation of the Spirit (including tongues) is evidence that God has accepted the Gentiles.

No, what Peter states is that they received the Spirit of God, just as they did at Pentecost.

In reference to the Holy Ghost falling on them, Peter recalls Christ's statement, that "John baptized with water but they would be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When the Disciples of Christ were baptized with the Holy Ghost, they received the Promised Spirit.

No kidding. No one has said differently. You are trying to cloud the issue.

My friend, all of this is in response to your own statements.

You said receiving the Holy Spirit was evidence they had faith.

And that is a popular problem in the Church today, many think we are saved by faith through grace, and that is error.

You can read in John 14 as to what that means, but to sum it up it refers to the Eternal Indwelling of God, which was not taking place during Christ's ministry.

That has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus proclaimed the gospel.

It certainly does: receiving the Spirit, being baptized with the Holy Ghost...

...is how men are eternally saved.

The disciples were men of faith. Cornelius was a man of faith. But they were not Eternally Redeemed until they were eternally forgiven, and eternally indwelt indwelt. And that, according to Christ in John 14, would not begin until He returned to HEaven from whence He came.

Just basic Bible Truth, my friend.

Darrell C said...

John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


John 14:22-23
King James Version (KJV)

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


This was not taking place during His ministry.


That has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus proclaimed the gospel.

Then why were no men being eternally redeemed through the preaching of the Gospel?

Because the Gospel of Christ was yet a mystery in that Age, and it would not be until Christ ushered in the New Covenant and a new Age that men would have the Mystery of Christ revealed to them through the efforts of the Comforter, just as Christ stated.

You can't have the Church without indwelt born again believers, all you have apart from that is...

...Religion.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I am wrong because the best you can come up with is "Strawman"? lol

Because you are arguing against something I have not claimed. The good news is that at least you are not dishonestly taking my words out of context. It would have been nice for you to admit what you did, but I guess that's too much to ask.

I've already addressed these imagined issues. You define how we "enter into life:"

We are called to enter into the life of Christ ("Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand", "Follow Me", "Take us your cross daily and follow Me", etc.).

My point was...we don't see that with Cornelius. Receiving the Holy Spirit wasn't "evidence they had faith," it was the moment of their (the Disciples of Christ and Cornelius (and his household)). You bring up tongues as if that has anything whatsoever to do with what Peter states in Acts 11.

So show me how you are right, and the Disciples did understand the Scriptures concerning Christ rising from the dead...

I already have.

Because you post Christ ministering and saying "Repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand?"

You have not addressed the first point raised, even though I have addressed everything you have said (that to which I have gotten so far, that is, I will do my best to get to everything).

...and Scripture is wrong.

No, your interpretation of scripture is a mess. You are wrong, not scripture.

So show me. Isn't that what a Minister of Christ is supposed to do? Show me how Paul is in error to say that the Mystery of Christ was not revealed in past Ages (which includes the Age of Law, under which Christ clearly ministered), to past generations, to the Saints, to the sons of men, but now the Hidden Wisdom of God (which is Christ, and specifically His death, burial, and Resurrection)...

...is revealed by the (Promised) Spirit to His holy Apostles and Prophets.

So far you have not been able to do that, and we both know why.

Address the points, there isn't a single strawman to be found.

They are irrelevant to the conversation.

They are the conversation, lol.

Just because you want to define the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as something other than what Peter clearly defines it as doesn't mean you can ignore the points made.

False accusation.

If you do not define it as the moment at which time men are baptized into eternal union with God...then it is not a false argument.

I draw that conclusion based on what you said, which was a rejection of my own statement to that effect.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I am not talking about saving faith, I am talking about men being eternally redeemed through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

The Old Testament Saint was not.

If God has declared them righteous, who are you to say that they are not? Redemption in Christ was going to happen. It was as good as done.

Wait, are you saying that Redemption had not taken place yet?

Are you saying that it was not...done?

Good, that is progress.

I agree, but we do not equate Abraham being justified by grace through faith, which secured his eternal destiny, and men being eternally redeemed, indwelt by God, and born of God.

Paul did. However, you keep added the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as an add-on to salvation. It was not in their time.

No, Paul did not. And the Eternal INdwelling of God was not an "add-on to salvation..."

...it is salvation on an eternal basis.

Big difference.

Being "righteous" in the Old Testament is commonly mistaken as euphemistic for being Eternally Redeemed. But let me ask you, were these...


Genesis 7:1
King James Version (KJV)

7 And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.


Genesis 15:6
King James Version (KJV)

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.


Luke 1:5-7
King James Version (KJV)

5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth.

6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.


Hebrews 11:4
King James Version (KJV)

4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.


...still in need of being redeemed from their sin?

Here is the righteousness we are saved by:


2 Peter 1:1
King James Version (KJV)

1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:


Stated here as well:


Romans 3:20-26
King James Version (KJV)

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Interpret Chapter Four with Chapter Three and that will be clear.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Where do you see tongues mentioned in this...


Acts 11:13-18
King James Version (KJV)

13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;

14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.

16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


...?

I know the scriptures beyond what you happen to quote. Peter is recounting what happened previously (and recorded in Acts 10) where tongues were manifest in the giving of the Spirit (see Acts 10:46). It happened in the same way as Pentecost in Acts 2. Peter's hearers would already be familiar with the story.

Irrelevant. You are ignoring the point made with Acts 11, and diverting attention to something irrelevant because you cannot address the point directly.

See Acts 10:46? See...


Acts 10:44
King James Version (KJV)

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.


Now remember, all of this began with a remark about Billy Graham's preaching:

Had nothing against him, however, I was not crazy about the transactional-style gospel message he presented, where one asks Jesus to be one's "Savior."

Jesus calls us to discipleship, not to passivity. Asking "Jesus into our hearts" is better than nothing, but it is a poor way of presenting the gospel. I would rather go with a biblical example, such as "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand", "Follow Me", or "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me", which all paint essentially the same picture.

And the fact is, because you merge Christ's ministry which was under Law and within the framework of the revelation that was being revealed to men, you present a Kingdom Gospel which was meant for Israel:


Matthew 15:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Matthew 10
King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

I know why you want to reject this, BB, and am very sorry for you.

Ad hominem.

No, it isn't. It is a genuine sorrow for your refusal to consider what is being said.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Acts 10:46

We weren't even in Acts 10, that was not the Scripture presented.

Clearly

Or not...


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The Gospel is about the Kingdom?

Can you show me that in Scripture?

It is what John the Baptist preached. - Matthew 3:3
It is what Jesus preached. - Matthew 4:17, 5:20, 6:10, 6:33, 7:21, 9:35, 12:28, all of Matthew 13 (note 13:11 regarding the "mysteries of the kingdom", Luke 4:43, 8:1, 8:10 (again, "mysteries of the kingdom"), 9:11
It is what Jesus told His disciples to preach - Matthew 10:7, Luke 9:2, 9:60, 10:11,
It is what the disciples did in Acts - Acts 8:12
It is what Paul preached - Acts 19:8, 20:25, 28:23, 28:31

"Repent, for the Kingdom is at hand" is not the Gospel, my friend.

The Gospel centers on the Work of Christ:


1 Corinthians 15, 12, 20
King James Version (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

So how one gets into the Kingdom is insignificant, its what one does when they are in that counts.

I said nothing of the sort.

Nope. The atonement is part of the gospel, but the gospel is about the kingdom (the interactive present rule and authority) of God. The atonement is a one-time event, but the kingdom is a present reality.

Do you realize how diminutive you are of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Of the Cross?

Ad hominem.

I agree, I should have said "...how diminutive that is of the Gospel..."

My apologies.

I already know the answer, I ask in hopes that you might be honest with yourself. Set aside your pride, my friend.

Ad homenim.

Not so much here, I still think that you will one day be honest with yourself about this discussion.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Have to get going but wanted to address a few things in this last post before I go:

He further maintained that people who followed Jesus were not yet redeemed/saved, because Jesus had not yet died for them.

Nowhere in anything I have said in this post, any other thread, or any forum...have I ever denied that the Old Testament Saints were not "saved." I regularly maintain the same doctrinal position that men have always been saved by grace through faith.

What you have failed to understand is the distinction between being saved under Old Testament Economies and actually being Eternally Redeemed through the Sacrifice of Christ, which, as made clear to you numerous times, was retro-active for them.

He asserts that the gospel of Jesus Christ was revealed through Paul, not Jesus.

Quote me saying that.

I have not been able to find where Darrell C has dealt with that post.

It has been dealt with, twice, I think, because I gave a short response in the midst of responding to the numerous posts you made, lol. The second one is much better, I think.

There's more I could say, but I'm sure Darrell C is going to jump all over this.

Of course, I live for posts like this, lol.

You are making it far too easy, my friend.

I am not going to respond to them since I think I have made my points sufficiently clear.

That is your choice, but, Lord willing, I will respond to this post in detail, with Scripture, and with more points for you to ignore.

But I will say this, I don't think you consciously teach works-based salvation, but, I do see overtones of it in your statements, and in your derisive tone towards Billy Graham's message. The fact remains that Billy Graham's Ministry was astounding, and it's fruit remains to this day.

Definitely blessed by God.

My Dad told me recently (he's a big fan of Graham) that Billy Graham's secret was...he kept it simple. And that, my friend, is what all of this is geared to, to help you see that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is simple enough for a child to understand. We don't make demands on prospective converts, we simply convey the Gospel, and let the Author and Finisher of our-and their-faith finish the work He begins in them.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Have to get going but wanted to address a few things in this last post before I go:




Nowhere in anything I have said in this post, any other thread, or any forum...have I ever denied that the Old Testament Saints were not "saved." I regularly maintain the same doctrinal position that men have always been saved by grace through faith.

What you have failed to understand is the distinction between being saved under Old Testament Economies and actually being Eternally Redeemed through the Sacrifice of Christ, which, as made clear to you numerous times, was retro-active for them.




Quote me saying that.




It has been dealt with, twice, I think, because I gave a short response in the midst of responding to the numerous posts you made, lol. The second one is much better, I think.




Of course, I live for posts like this, lol.

You are making it far too easy, my friend.




That is your choice, but, Lord willing, I will respond to this post in detail, with Scripture, and with more points for you to ignore.

But I will say this, I don't think you consciously teach works-based salvation, but, I do see overtones of it in your statements, and in your derisive tone towards Billy Graham's message. The fact remains that Billy Graham's Ministry was astounding, and it's fruit remains to this day.

Definitely blessed by God.

My Dad told me recently (he's a big fan of Graham) that Billy Graham's secret was...he kept it simple. And that, my friend, is what all of this is geared to, to help you see that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is simple enough for a child to understand. We don't make demands on prospective converts, we simply convey the Gospel, and let the Author and Finisher of our-and their-faith finish the work He begins in them.


God bless.

OT saints were all saved just as much as we are now under the new Covenant, , its just that we are under the fullness of the spiritual blessings they were looking forward to!

 

[Darrell C]

OT saints were all saved just as much as we are now under the new Covenant, , its just that we are under the fullness of the spiritual blessings they were looking forward to!

Do you see how you have to qualify your statement with "its just that we are under the fullness of the spiritual blessings they were looking forward to!"

You admit that they did not have the "spiritual blessings" we have, which is true, because they did not receive what was only promise in the Old Testament.

Here are some promises they did not have:

1. Eternal Remission of sins, The Atonement (that would not take place until Christ died in their place);

2. Reconciliation to God (they were not sons of God);

3. Eternal Life (because not one of them was Baptized with the Holy Ghost, or in other words immersed into God);

4. And lastly...

...they did not have Jesus Christ to call upon.

And that is a requirement for Eternal Salvation.

Jesus Christ has a beginning in time (though the Son of God is Eternal, and Eternal God). There is a point in time when God created the Body the Son of God would be born into, grow up in, die in, be raised from the dead in, be glorified in, return to Heaven in (where He is to this very day), and when that was accomplished He would begin indwelling believers for ever, as opposed to the temporary time He was the Comforter of Israel.

So while many looked forward to the fulfillment of the promises of God, they could not place faith in the Risen Savior and be Eternally Redeemed. Abraham "...seeing Christ's day and rejoicing" refers to Abraham's knowledge that all the families of the earth would be blessed through his descendant. He was not privy to the Name of Jesus Christ and he was not privy to the Mystery of the Gospel:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Look, there's that word "now" again.

Understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ, my friend.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

This is my final post in this thread.

That's a shame, I was hoping I could clear up your confusion on the invitation of Christ to the lost in the churches.

It is supposed to be about Billy Graham,

It is, really: you ridiculed his approach, and insinuated he taught a greasy grace message, inferior to your own:

Had nothing against him, however, I was not crazy about the transactional-style gospel message he presented, where one asks Jesus to be one's "Savior."

Jesus calls us to discipleship, not to passivity. Asking "Jesus into our hearts" is better than nothing, but it is a poor way of presenting the gospel. I would rather go with a biblical example, such as "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand", "Follow Me", or "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me", which all paint essentially the same picture.

Would to God we could all get the attention of as many people for Christ as he did. Yes...teach me this passivity.

You trade men asking Christ in their hearts with "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand", "Follow Me", or "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me", which all paint essentially the same picture."

That is better. And not one "Jesus Christ died in your stead that you can live eternally in there."

but I go caught up in trying to answer your false accusations,

Not a false accusation in there. The "avalanche" of posts addressed in great detail the reasoning for my conclusion.

naively thinking that you were going to actually pay attention to what I wrote and respond to those points.

And that is the mind-set of pretty much on this Doctrinal Debate Forum: "I'm going to straighten them out, and if they don't listen to me, then I wash my hands of them."

Well, can I suggest to you that 1) this is a Doctrinal Debate Forum, so you should be ready to debate, 2) it is not ourselves we point men to, but Christ, and His Word, and 3)...

...you shouldn't teach anything you aren't ready to go to battle for.

Instead you posted an avalanche of scripture,

Hey, thanks!

made numerous false accusations and irrelevant points based on positions I do not hold

False accusations. Every point given you was relevant, and my conclusion of your position was well defined.

and conveniently skipped over everything that demonstrated that you were mistaken.

You demonstrated...nothing.

Again, saying "Repent! for the Kingdom of God is at hand" is the Gospel of Christ only shows the lack of understanding you have of the Gospel.

No wonder you are so diminutive of the "passivity" preached by Billy Graham.

No doubt you will disagree and go off on another post making more assertions,

Same assertions.

so I am under no illusions that you will leave this alone.

Why would I? I view a proper understanding of the Gospel as critical, and am quite happy to show anyone who might stumble across this forum that the Gospel of Christ is...

...about Christ.

But since you believe these posts are for the benefit of "anyone interested enough to read," I will make a final summary for others:

And I appreciate you giving me the last word.




Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I will make a final summary for others:

I originally made the comment that "I was not crazy about the transactional-style gospel message [Billy Graham] presented, where one asks Jesus to be one's 'Savior.'" and quoted a bit of Bonhoeffer.

Here it is:

"When Christ calls a man, he bids him come and die.” - Bonhoeffer

Here is my own statement:

When Christ calls a man He does so before the man has any clue that he is being called, and what He tells him is...

...I have died that you might live.

Feel free to quote.

Darrell C took exception to that and quoted Revelation 3:20, making a reference to a church into a reference into an invitation to an individual. I pointed that out and clarified my position:

Jesus calls us to discipleship, not to passivity. Asking "Jesus into our hearts" is better than nothing, but it is a poor way of presenting the gospel. I would rather go with a biblical example, such as "Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand", "Follow Me", or "Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me", which all paint essentially the same picture.

And that is not the Gospel of Jesus Christ. As I said in the beginning.

That is the Gospel of the Kingdom. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the Hidden Wisdom of God not made manifest in Ages past, to generations past, to the Saints or sons of men, but is now, by the Spirit sent down from Heaven, made manifest to His holy Apostles and Prophets.

And it the Comforter that reveals the Gospel to men, that they might go forth and convey the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is that Christ died that sinners not die, and furthermore...have everlasting life.

With that, Darrell C assumed that I was adding "works" to the gospel message.

It wasn't an assumption then and it is not an assumption now. Until you rectify your demands upon men you will not be preaching a sound Gospel of Christ.


Acts 15:7-11
King James Version (KJV)

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I pointed out that it was exactly the message that Jesus preached, but Darrell C started promoting the idea that Jesus didn't preach the gospel because, apparently, He had not been crucified, resurrected, ascended, and given the "Baptist of the Holy Ghost" yet.

You are not correctly recounting what I have said. I did, and do point out that Christ was not revealing the Mystery of the Gospel during His ministry, but ministered specifically to Israel as her Messiah, and preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. He ministered under the Law, and within the framework of the revelation provided to men, expounding that with the revelation they had which they were in error about.

And I gave you numerous Scriptures which in this post you deem "irrelevant."

If the above is a typo and you meant "Baptism with the Holy Ghost," then you almost understand what I have said, except I said men were not Eternally Redeemed because of these things. Not that they are why He didn't preach the Gospel of Christ. The Gospel was a Mystery, previously unrevealed truth, which was meant to be revealed to and through the Apostles and Prophets of this Age.

I gave you numerous Scriptures for that point as well, to which I received no real address.

He further maintained that people who followed Jesus were not yet redeemed/saved, because Jesus had not yet died for them.

Again, you misconstrue what I have said: I have never said the Old Testament Saints were not "saved," because from an eternal perspective they were, their eternal destinies were secured through their being justified by grace through faith...and works.

But, before you or anyone thinks I adding works to salvation, let me again remind you of the simple truth that is the heart of my rejection of your gospel of works...

...there is a difference between one being Eternally Redeemed and justified on the basis of their faith, belief, and works. That is why the Old Testament Saint is distinguished from the Church here...


Hebrews 12:22-24
King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The theme of Perfection in Hebrews teaches rather clearly that the Old Testament Saints did not receive the promises God gave in the Old Testament, and that they were not made perfect:


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Go and learn what that meaneth.

And yes, its okay to use the King James when you do so, just make sure that you refer to the Greek when you do.




Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I pointed out that he was "not quite" correct with a paraphrase of Romans 5:10 (which I also gave the reference), that we are reconciled to God through His death, but actually saved by His life.

No point in trying to back-pedal, I can present it non-parsed and you are still saying the same thing:

It's a false argument, I have never denied that believers are disciples of Christ.

I simply don't teach men they are saved because they are a disciple, but saved because Christ died for them.

Not quite. We were reconciled to God through His death, but we are saved by His life (see Romans 5:10).

We are called to enter into the life of Christ ("Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand", "Follow Me", "Take us your cross daily and follow Me", etc.).

First, I have put my entire quote in place, since you are going to whine about me parsing, then I assume its okay for me to remove your parsing as well.

Secondly, I make it clear that I have not denied believers are disciples, my point was...they are not saved because they are disciples, but saved because Christ died for them. You say "Not quite," and then again present your Kingdom Gospel, which is inappropriate in itself (and you have been shown why), but to add these things to the priomary thrust of the New Testament message is shameful. Especially for one who claims to have ministered for 35 years.

Time for another avalanche...


Colossians 1:12-14
King James Version (KJV)

12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:


Ephesians 1
King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


Ephesians 2:12-13
King James Version (KJV)

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.


Acts 20:28
King James Version (KJV)

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.



Romans 3:21-25
King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;


Hebrews 9:12
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


And a verse you remarked on...


John 3:16
King James Version (KJV)

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


You said...

The "Core message" of the Gospel would be found in John 3:16-17!

Even that favorite passage of scripture is not even the "core message" of the gospel. It is bigger and broader than that.

To which I responded...

Actually it is not. That is the Gospel of Jesus Christ:
John 3:14-17
King James Version (KJV)

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.


Not, "So men can get busy and do stuff for the Lord."

Anyone who is genuinely saved will produce fruit, we don't have to try to produce it for them by telling them their discipleship has anything to do with the fact they have been Eternally Redeemed.

He is the Author and Finisher, not we.

John 3:16 is the core message of the Gospel.


Continued...

 

[utilyan]

People hide what JESUS CHRIST teaches saves a person and what a person should do, with personal teachings ABOUT Jesus

Same folks claim their own teaching is superior to Jesus' teaching..

 

[Darrell C]

That apparently really set Darrell C off,

Not at all. I actually enjoy Doctrinal Debate. That's why I come to a Doctrinal Debate Debate Forum.

To debate.

because he then isolated the "not quite" part of my response and made the wildly false claim that I was diminishing the cross and Christ, and that I was "adding works" to the cross.

I know you don't see it, but that is the point of these posts.

It just degenerated from there, with all kinds of strawmen false claims and ad homenim assertions.

It's okay...I forgive you.


Continued...