On Board With Billy Graham

[Baptist Believer]

I'm not responding to any more of your blather until you deal with this post.

If you don't come to terms with this, it is clear you reject scripture and just want to "win" an argument.

I have no interest continuing with you if you are simply arguing, because I don't want to harden you against scripture because of your ego.

 

[Darrell C]

Perhaps you are a disciple of Paul?

Perhaps you have nothing but insults to offer?

People are saved when they enter into the life of Christ, in every sense of the word.

And no man did that prior to the Incarnation, the Cross, or the Resurrection.

You do understand that we receive eternal life by being baptized into Christ, right?

When they give all they know themselves to be, to all they know Christ to be.

"They" do nothing but respond to the ministry of the Comforter. They are made to see the truth of the Gospel and turn to Christ in faith.

That is not a decision merely in the intellect, but an action of the soul.

Well, that is an altogether different issue. I do not view the "soul" to be some third element of man's make-up. God created man with a body and a spirit, and he was made a living soul, he didn't receive one.

So if you changed that to spirit I would agree, because it is a spiritual issue, revealed by the Spirit of God to man.

I simply don't teach men they are saved because they are a disciple, but saved because Christ died for them.

Not quite.

Again, if you teach that men are "not quite saved" by the Blood of Christ...you teach a false gospel.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

We were reconciled to God through His death, but we are saved by His life (see Romans 5:10).

I agree.

We are called to enter into the life of Christ ("Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand", "Follow Me", "Take us your cross daily and follow Me", etc.).

We enter into the life of Christ by...

"Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand", "Follow Me", "Take us your cross daily and follow Me", etc..."

...?

It's always a shame to see those who teach works-based salvation, but, even worse when they do not even realize that is what they do.


God bless.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Continued...

DON'T.

Deal with this issue first.

 

[Darrell C]

I'm not responding to any more of your blather until you deal with this post.

Well, I have just finished the first response, and rest assured, my friend, I will address every one of them.

Though I do not expect anything but what I have already seen from you.

It's funny, you demand that I address this post, yet you will not address my own points?

It's sad that you think the the Lord was preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ in His ministry, and that you think one is saved by repenting. 35 years? Really?

And you can't even properly define the Gospel?

If you don't come to terms with this, it is clear you reject scripture and just want to "win" an argument.

Not sure how you can claim I reject Scripture when I have presented numerous points you cannot deny.

I have no interest continuing with you if you are simply arguing, because I don't want to harden you against scripture because of your ego.

There's no argument: the Disciples were not born again believers eternally indwelt by God during the Lord's Ministry. They were not forgiven their sins.

As far as ego, I am not the one making claims of "I have dealt with arguments like these for 35 years," lol. I have simply presented you with numerous arguments you are forced to ignore.

I have to be going, but I do hope when I get to the rest of your posts you will have had some time to give some thought to what has been presented to you. I have only addressed one post so far, so, I am hoping there is something in your further posts besides "ad hominem" or personal comments directed at myself.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

One more quick one:

It was impossible.

You can't have men believing on something that hasn't happened, and has not yet been given unto men to understand.

The Old Testament is filled with the Gospel of Jesus Christ, yet...


John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

Except John did. And the women. And just about everyone who met the risen Christ.

Amazing. John tell you right here that they did not know the Scripture, that He must rise again from the dead...

...and you deny it.

Why do you fail to quote this Scripture with your response, BB? Because you know it would look rather foolish to make the statement you just made and include it?

That's what I thought.



In regards to John, have you not read...


Matthew 11
King James Version (KJV)

1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had made an end of commanding his twelve disciples, he departed thence to teach and to preach in their cities.

2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?


Just because John prophesied of Christ and proclaimed Him the Lamb of the World...doesn't mean he was believing on Christ as the Risen Savior. John doesn't sound too sure here.

Yes. And not only men, but women and children.

Paul made a big deal about it in Galatians 3 and Romans 4.

Please post the Scripture you feel supports your view. Vague quotes don't help, and I am not going to try to guess what it is you think shows that men had received the Gospel of Jesus Christ prior to Pentecost.

What would Billy Graham say about such sloppy work?



See you at the next appointed time, my friend, God willing. Give some thought to what is being discussed.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

DON'T.

Deal with this issue first.

Okay, going to address this one so you don't feel you can ignore my own points, which actually address your proposal, in that we know this is not the Gospel of Christ because the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery. When you can show how the Gospel was revealed to Ages and generations past, to the saints and sons of men, and not now made manifest and revealed by the Spirit to His holy Apostles and Prophets...

...then you will have proven that the Bible does in fact have errors, because both cannot be true.

But we already know it is you in error, and you do combat the Scriptures against themselves.

It's already been done.

"Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand."

"Follow Me."

Mark 8:31-38
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”

Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”

Are you ready? Will you actually read the post? I hope so, because I am already late and should have been gone hours ago, but, you are worth it, my friend.

First, let's get a proper presentation of the Scripture, so it is a little easier to read:


Mark 8:31-38
King James Version (KJV)

31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

32 And he spake that saying openly. And Peter took him, and began to rebuke him.

33 But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.


The first thing that denies your position (that Christ is preaching the Gospel of Christ in a manner which could be understood by the hearers), is the obvious fact that Peter rejects the Gospel (which again is the Death, Burial, and Resurrection of Jesus Christ). I've already made that point before, so I will have to wait to see if you actually responded to it when I get to the other posts.

So here you are saying, contrary to the teachings of Paul (and thus the Holy Spirit), that Christ was preaching the Gospel message in His Ministry, yet His Own Disciples...

...haven't picked up on it?


34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

36 For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

37 Or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

38 Whosoever therefore shall be ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation; of him also shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he cometh in the glory of his Father with the holy angels.


Where is the Gospel? Just because you think this is the Gospel doesn't change the fact that Christ ministers under the Law within the framework of the revelation men had in that day.

Secondly, it would not be until after Christ returned to Heaven and sent the Spirit that the Disciples would even understand this:


John 14:25-29
King James Version (KJV)

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

29 And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye might believe.


Let me remind you Christ demanded a number of things from men that would not be relevant until after the Comforter came: He told them to abide (they did not), He told them to believe (they did not), and He told them they must be born again, and they could not, because we are born again as a result of the Eternal Indwelling.

That is just fact.

So despite your confusion on thinking that Christ is somehow conveying the Gospel by saying...


34 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.


...the fact remains that it would not be until after Christ had risen that men would believe on Him in fulfillment of that command, and it would be then that they could actually deny themselves, take up their crosses, and follow Him.

If you remember, Peter didn't deny himself...he denied Jesus Christ.

Do you really think that if Christ had been revealing the Gospel to the Disciples that Peter would have taken a sword out to prevent the Cross from taking place?

Again, Christ is ministering under the Law within the framework of the revelation provided to men, and for the First Century Jew looking for Messiah (because they awaited redemption which shows redemption, nor Redemption had taken place) that would have meant a literal son of David sitting on a literal earthly throne which would not fail to have a descendant following Messiah on the throne.

They had no idea that the Kingdom Christ would establish at the First Coming would be Eternal in an entirely different manner. They did not know it was sin, not Rome...they needed redemption from.

Now, you address what I have said and include the Scripture, and include whatever Scripture you think relevant to the discussion. No more vague quotes.

I just quoted a passage that says that very thing. Look at the words in red. If you don't admit you are wrong about this assertion, I will know you don't actually respect the scripture nor are serious about doing anything but arguing.

I don't admit I am wrong, lol, how can I?

You are never going to nullify Paul's teaching concerning the Mystery of Christ, and you are never going to find an eternally forgiven, eternally indwelt, born again member of the Church, the Body of Christ in the Old Testament.

And I define the Old Testament as the day before Pentecost and everything prior to that.

You are so cocky, you don't understand how wrong you are...

Well, I look at it as confidence, lol.

It's hard not to be confident in the Word of God, particularly when it shows the error of the popular pulpit mythology that is espoused as the Gospel these days.

And you, my friend, are making the Gospel something it is not. The Gospel is all about what Christ did, not what His Disciples do.

And I really must be going, but thanks for the responses, I am enjoying this tremendously.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

And that is not the point. I am not denying that we become disciples when we are saved, again, I am denying that we are saved by becoming disciples.

Except that you reject what Jesus said about that. I think God is quite gracious and accepts us on the basis of what we know, but Jesus explicitly taught discipleship as a part of entering into His life.

How can I reject something Christ did not teach?

Just because you think the Gospel is something men do doesn't make it a reality.

You are speaking of what takes place, or should...after men are saved.

And what you are saying is seen very clearly...

I think God is quite gracious and accepts us on the basis of what we know, but Jesus explicitly taught discipleship as a part of entering into His life.

That is heresy and works-based, BB.

There is nothing a man can do to be saved.

Can I remind you of a couple verses every Baptist should be aware of?


Ephesians 2:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


Titus 3:4-5
King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Did you actively take part in your new birth? Did you seek out God? And say, "Here I am God, I have repented and am ready to take up my cross...?"

You diminish the cross and Christ by your actions here.

On the contrary, I am the one who is trying to preach Christ crucified, you are the one trying to teach works.

I didn't realize that you were going to resort to dishonest citations.

I didn't. As I said before, you cannot view adding what you left out dishonest, and you are leaving right much out.

And I will show you that parsing your "not quite" doesn't change what you actually said.

I simply don't teach men they are saved because they are a disciple, but saved because Christ died for them.

Not quite. We were reconciled to God through His death, but we are saved by His life (see Romans 5:10).

We are called to enter into the life of Christ ("Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand", "Follow Me", "Take us your cross daily and follow Me", etc.)

.

I didn't realize that you were going to resort to dishonest citations.

Here's the real context:

You said claimed that we were saved by the death of Christ by writing this, "...but saved because Christ died for them."

I responded, "Not quite."

You pretend that's all I write. But I continued the thought:

"Not quite. We were reconciled to God through His death, but we are saved by His life (see Romans 5:10)."

It's pretty obvious your pride is more important to you than Sound Doctrine.

You repeated your works-based gospel here:

And that is not the point. I am not denying that we become disciples when we are saved, again, I am denying that we are saved by becoming disciples.

Except that you reject what Jesus said about that. I think God is quite gracious and accepts us on the basis of what we know, but Jesus explicitly taught discipleship as a part of entering into His life.

Christ doesn't save us because we agree to be disciples, He saves us because there is nothing we can do to save ourselves.

Since you obviously didn't look it up or know the reference, here is Romans 5:10:

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

And what you fail to recognize in this statement is that men are reconciled to God through the death of His Son, lol.

Are you trying to suggest that Reconciliation and Atonement are two entirely events in the life of the born again believer? You have the gall to advise a modern translation, well, my advice to you is to look at the Greek. Paul is not saying we are reconciled (but not saved) by His Son's death, and saved by His Life (which refers to His Resurrection), we are, as is just a Basic Christian Principle...saved by the Gospel of JEsus Christ.

And we don't have to expand the context very much to see just how innnapropriate your application is:


Romans 5:9-10
King James Version (KJV)

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


In view is the penalty for sin. The "salvation" in view is salvation from the penalty of sin.

I was paraphrasing Paul's writing and even gave you the scripture for reference, but you have instead decided to twist what I have written for rhetorical advantage. Anyone who cares can see the original here.

Put away your pride, my friend.

The parsing did not change what you said, you still presented a works-based view which denies my own statement:

I simply don't teach men they are saved because they are a disciple, but saved because Christ died for them.

Not quite. We were reconciled to God through His death, but we are saved by His life (see Romans 5:10).

We are called to enter into the life of Christ ("Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand", "Follow Me", "Take us your cross daily and follow Me", etc.).

Here it is again:

And that is not the point. I am not denying that we become disciples when we are saved, again, I am denying that we are saved by becoming disciples.

Except that you reject what Jesus said about that. I think God is quite gracious and accepts us on the basis of what we know, but Jesus explicitly taught discipleship as a part of entering into His life.

No need to follow the link, its right there. I have no reason for anyone not to see it.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Not quite? I know what you add to the Cross...doing stuff:

I am trying to be faithful to the words of Jesus. What about you?

I myself am not trying...



It's rather easy to be faithful to Christ's Word when we balance all of them, and do so with the revelation provided us in the New Testament.

Christ ministered under the Law to Israel, not the world:


Matthew 15:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Furthermore, He ministered within the framework of the revelation provided to men at that time.

I understand that you subscribe to dispensationalism.

I also believe in the Trinity, does that make me a Catholic?

You understand very little. Just because my Doctrine is in agreement with Systems of Theology doesn't make me a participant of that System. My Doctrine is based on Scripture. You should know, you have been ignoring quite a bit of it.

I do not. I can read the scriptures easily without placing an unbiblical theory upon them.

You have yet to show anything unbiblical.

The points made are irrefutable.

The Disciples were not believing on Christ prior to Pentecost.

The Gospel is not about those who are saved, but about Christ. Who is it that you tell people about when you witness to them? What is it that you tell them about Him?

Christ ministered under the Law to Israel, not the world:


Matthew 15:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Furthermore, He ministered within the framework of the revelation provided to men at that time.

Obviously. But Jesus also provided an enormous amount of new revelation.

Great, now if you can find that new revelation, I would glad to see it. And I am speaking of the Gospel specifically.

Christ spent a great deal of time expounding the Law...to Israel.

His announcement that the "Kingdom of God is at hand" was an announcement of the present availability of the kingdom to anyone who would enter it.

So how come no-one was entering into that Kingdom?

Unless you think men can enter into that Kingdom apart from being eternally forgiven, eternally redeemed, and born again believers of the Church, the Body of Christ.

Not one man entered into that Kingdom until Pentecost.

We see John the Baptist stated...not to be in that Kingdom:


Matthew 11:11
King James Version (KJV)

11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

When I say He "didn't preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ" that does not mean I ignore that on a few occasions He did...


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

That's good.

Again, you ignore the Scripture.

Peter rejected the Gospel.

Again:


1 Corinthians 15
King James Version (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


Look at what Peter rejects again:


Matthew 16:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men


The Lord declaring what was going to take place is not what you (and many) are trying to make it out to be, which is that Christ went around Israel preaching the Gospel of Christ. His references to the Gospel remained shrouded in Mystery just as all of the Gospel presentations in the Hebrew Scriptures were.

...but...

...Peter rejected the Gospel.

And if you don't believe me that the disciples were not believing on Christ yet, then take the Lord's Word for it:


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

Obviously not.

Not sure what it is that would keep you from acknowledging that the Lord is rebuking them for...

...unbelief.

It's in every Gospel, my friend.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Peter objected to the idea that Jesus would be allowed to be killed.

"Allowed to be killed?"

Peter rejected the idea that Christ would die, be buried, and rise again the Third Day.

He rejected the Gospel my friend.

However, Peter did not turn away from Jesus, but learned from Him - the one preaching the gospel message.

No, he didn't turn away, but that doesn't change the fact that he rejected Christ's presentation of the Gospel.

Why you won't simply admit that is beyond me.

Rejecting the gospel would be leaving Jesus and not returning.

Oh, so one can reject the Gospel and return and that is just hunky dory, lol.

You are rationalizing and creating an excuse.

And again, it was not Peter who returned. Peter returned to fishing for fish, and it is Christ Who seeks him and the disciples out. So rethink that a little, okay?

...but...

...Peter rejected the Gospel.

And if you don't believe me that the disciples were not believing on Christ yet, then take the Lord's Word for it:


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

You have confused their unbelief of the testimony of the women to disbelief in the gospel.

Wait, let me see if I have this correct: you are saying they were not unbelieving that the Lord had risen, just didn't believe the accounts of the witnesses?

Read v.14 again:

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen


Give it up, BB, you're not going to change the Scripture.

Here's is another example:


Luke 24
King James Version (KJV)

4 And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:

5 And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?

6 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.

8 And they remembered his words,

9 And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.

10 It was Mary Magdalene and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.

11 And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.


Let's just acknowledge what the Word of God says, okay?

The Angels ask the "believing" women why they seek the living among the dead. The reason is because they...still thought He was dead.

The Eleven think they are speaking idle tales.

If that is your idea of belief, we are definitely not on the same page.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I would suggest to you that you have left your first love, my friend.

I suggest to take some serious time to set aside all of your presuppositions and reread the gospels carefully in light of what Jesus actually said.

I have been studying this issue for years, my friend. And to date not one person has given the first reasonable presentation of anyone being eternally redeemed in the Old Testament. The reason is they can't, nor can you. Many of them are likely embarrassed because they have ministered so long and have overlooked these basic truths.

And pick a modern translation so you can understand it better.

Why, the King James is a great translation, and in my opinion more thorough than a lot of the newer ones.

When you can show me why I am not understanding, with Scripture, then perhaps you can make statements like these. Until then...

It's clear you don't understand the KJV, because no one should make the errors you are making.

What error?

You think you have shown that Christ was giving the Gospel to those He ministered to? lol

You haven't shown anything, just a faulty understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Return to that time when you embraced Christ and remember how you were saved.

I came to faith when I first heard the real gospel, not a passive atonement story about going to heaven when I die, but the gospel of Jesus calling me into a life.

So that Christ died, was buried, and rose again...

...is a passive atonement story.

Like I said, you diminish the Cross of Christ, the very Gospel...with your works-based gospel.

That was in June 1979.

I believe you.



But being saved, and being a minister...doesn't mean you can't be wrong about things.

I remember all of the circumstances and the scripture that pricked my heart.

That is good. But I was basically saying think back to when you were saved, and what you understood about Christ when you were saved. Was it not a conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment? Did you think at the time "Gee, I hope I can be a good enough disciple to remain saved?"

I doubt that very much.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

It denies the intervention of Sovereign God in the lives of natural men.

Only in your mind. No one is saved by their own efforts or intent, but by the drawing of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44, among others). But the way we enter into the kingdom (aka enter into Christ) is by entering into discipleship with him, not making a mere intellectual decision.

Again, you are confusing EFFORT with EARNING.

What I am not confusing are some pretty obvious flaws to your doctrine:

1. Who exactly was being drawn to Jesus Christ prior to the Incarnation?

2. The way of entering the Kingdom is through Reconciliation with God;

3. The Holy Spirit was not sent until Pentecost, at which time the promised Spirit was given and men were then eternally indwelt and baptized into Christ;

4. Again you teach a works-based gospel:

It denies the intervention of Sovereign God in the lives of natural men.

Only in your mind. No one is saved by their own efforts or intent, but by the drawing of the Holy Spirit (John 6:44, among others). But the way we enter into the kingdom (aka enter into Christ) is by entering into discipleship with him, not making a mere intellectual decision.

Again, you are confusing EFFORT with EARNING.

I am not the one confusing this, lol. Salvation is the result of the Spirit's (Comforter's) Ministry, not an intellectual decision to "enter into discipleship."

Understand, no man's will, either personally or imposed on another can bring about salvation:


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Here is Paul's definition of the Gospel:


1 Corinthians 15
King James Version (KJV)

1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:


That doesn't sound like "...do stuff so you can be saved" to me.

For the record, the "do stuff so you can be saved" strawman is of your own creation. I have made no such claim. You are simply misinterpreting what I have said when I quote Jesus.

Not a strawman:

I think God is quite gracious and accepts us on the basis of what we know, but Jesus explicitly taught discipleship as a part of entering into His life.

What Jesus actually taught was that anyone believing on Him (which is specific belief in His Death, Burial, and Resurrection) would not perish, but have everlasting life.

And I would lay odds that you have never once stopped to consider that men did not obtain eternal life prior to the Cross, have you.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Sounds like the Gospel delivered by Paul was that Christ died for our sins, and rose again the third day.

Strawman.

Not quite:

but saved because Christ died for them.

Not quite. We were reconciled to God through His death, but we are saved by His life (see Romans 5:10).

We are called to enter into the life of Christ ("Repent, for the kingdom of God is at hand", "Follow Me", "Take us your cross daily and follow Me", etc.).

Also said in this manner:

I think God is quite gracious and accepts us on the basis of what we know, but Jesus explicitly taught discipleship as a part of entering into His life.

How magnanimous of you.

And again, as ignored in your response, The Gospel of Jesus Christ was a Mystery not revealed since the world began:

It was revealed in Jesus Christ, not Paul's preaching/writing.

Sorry, but a Mystery is something not previously revealed. It is revealed only to the initiated, meaning...only those who are born again believers can understand it.

Perhaps if you would address the numerous Scriptures which have been given (and keep in mind I am catching up, so perhaps you already have, I don't know) you would cease to reject this simple truth.

Here is one of them:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

No, He did not reveal the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Jesus didn't reveal His gospel? Nonsense.

I would think that after 35 years you would have a better understanding of revelation.

You do understand the difference between something being revealed to men and something being spoken/written, such as in Prophecy? A different translation isn't going to help that, my friend. I have gone back and added a link to Strong's (in the quote above, the blue words).




Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Again, He ministered within the Law, within that Age, and within the revelation afforded men at that time.

Your dispensationalist views are blinding you to the obvious.

It has nothing to do with Dispensational Theology, it's just basic Bible Truths.

You go on about Abraham being justified, yet forget that it was God that sought him out. So look at the following...


Romans 3:21-26
King James Version (KJV)

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Show me where Paul or James imply Abraham was eternally redeemed through His faith and works.

By the way, Jesus ministered well outside of the Law too.

Actually He did not.

He forgave sins,

That is not working outside of the Law. God also forgave men who were not under the Law. Did so many times.

which should have only been done in the Temple, with a sacrifice.

I agree with the basic premise of this statement, however, one thing I would point out is that no man forgiven by Christ was eternally forgiven, that is only accomplished by the Sacrifice of Christ.

He forgave men and women, true, but, they did not receive eternal remission as promised in the Promise of the New Covenant:


Hebrews 10:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Sacrifice in the Temple was in effect until Christ died on the Cross. And every person forgiven by Christ was still in need of redemption through Christ.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The baptisms were ceremonial washings that took place outside of the Temple (the Law).

Christ did not baptize men in water, so it is not relevant:


John 4
King James Version (KJV)

4 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John,

2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples)


Christ is the Baptizer in an eternal context:


Matthew 3:11-12
King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

He touched the lepers and made clean those who were cursed under the law.

Then I guess Elisha was also ministering "outside" to the Law:


2 Kings 5:14-15
King James Version (KJV)

14 Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.

15 And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.

He did not participate in all of the rituals that were formed by concern for the Law (hand washings, breaking of the Sabbath, etc.).

You mean He did not partake in the traditions of men?

Like I said, Christ expounded the Law unto Israel. You aren't going to change that.

Moreover, He brought all kinds of new revelation about God to His audience.

He revealed mysteries of...

...the Kingdom.

He was not bound by the knowledge of the age.

I agree, but men were.

Seriously, you need to spend some time reading the Gospels.

Great advice. I do that as much as I can.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Sure it does.

Right:

John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.

Sure He did.

Right:


Colossians 1:25-26
King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

He sent the disciples out on at least two different missionary journeys to the villages of Israel and Judah -- and the Spirit was with them. Just before His ascension, He commissioned them to go into the broader world after the Spirit had indwelt them and they had received power from the Holy Spirit.

Right, and it was not until after He returned to Heaven and sent the Comforter that they did this:


Acts 1:4-8
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


That is why before Pentecost they are still throwing dice to make decisions, and after they are preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

They should have been the most prepared to understand the kingdom of God, but sometimes the pagan Gentiles understood it better (Luke 7:7-9). Remember, the kingdom of God is "the interactive present rule and authority of God", not merely something that is coming later.

Which, because the Mystery of the Gospel was not being revealed to men in past Ages and generations, and was not revealed to the sons of men or Saints...

...was not known to them.

You can't interpret Scripture without keeping in mind that you have knowledge they didn't.

Yes, obviously. However, if they had looked at the scriptures more carefully, they would have seen that it was part of the prophecies.

No matter of "looking" would have helped:


1 Peter 1:9-12
King James Version (KJV)

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Peter failed here and there, but he did not desert the Jesus or the message that Jesus taught - the gospel.

And that is the same nonsense most preachers preach.

Peter did not "fail here and there," Peter reacted precisely how someone not privy to the Gospel of Jesus Christ would. He understood Prophecy based on the popular pulpit mythology of the day.

But, the difference between that error and yours is that you have received the revelation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and should understand this better, particularly if you have been a minister for 35 years. And if you think I am stepping on your toes, I am not, I am stepping on your pride.




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I have never said they did not have saving faith. What I am saying is that they were not eternally forgiven, eternally redeemed, eternally indwelt members of the Body of Christ yet.

Now you are changing your story.

Friend, I teach this issue consistently on this forum. What is changing is you gaining a better understanding of what I am saying.

At no time have I ever said they didn't have saving faith, what I have said is that they were not believing on Christ as the Risen Savior. Did you even bother to read any of the posts, or do you answer blindly?

Again, Christ ministered under the Law within the framework of the revelation provided to men at that point. He was not revealing the Mystery of the Gospel to men, and in fact, as shown you, was not sending His disciples to the world.

Repeating your assertion is not an argument.

The argument stands, and you will never be able to deny it. It's just a basic truth.

What you are denying is the very Word of Christ:


Matthew 15:24
King James Version (KJV)

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


Now explain why Christ is wrong and popular pulpit mythology is correct.

You are equating the saving faith of Abraham and all Old Testament Saints to Salvation in Christ through relationship through the New Covenant.

I do it because Paul did that very thing in Galatians 3 and Romans 4.

Sorry, no:


Galatians 3:14
King James Version (KJV)

14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.


Galatians 3:21-25
King James Version (KJV)

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.

23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.


Abraham heard the Gospel of Christ only in terms of the promises, he never knew the Name of Christ, and never knew He would die for his sin, and never placed faith in Christ as the Risen Savior.

And you can post anything you like from Romans 4, I can already tell you it will not nullify Romans 3, which states quite clearly that we are now freely justified by His grace through the Redemption which is in Christ Jesus.

No man has ever been eternally redeemed simply by being obedient to God's will in a general manner. Justified, yes, which secured the eternal destinies of the Old Testament Saint, but...

...they did not receive the Spirit, the Promises, and they were not made perfect/complete in regards to remission of sins.

If you look above you will see one very important element of Eternal Salvation you are not considering properly: Paul makes the point men should have received life if it were possible, but due to man's proclivity for sin because he does not have the Spirit (hence eternal life)...no man had life.

Eternal life is only bestowed when one is baptized with the Holy Ghost, or in other words...baptized into Christ.

The Old Testament Saints died not having received the promises given, and it was not until Christ died that their sins were redeemed:

Faith was credited to them as righteousness, long before Jesus died.

This is true, however, being just doesn't equate to eternal life.

Now, I will post again that which you ignored:


The Old Testament Saints died not having received the promises given, and it was not until Christ died that their sins were redeemed:


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


They received those promises long after they had died.

There was no provision for that which was eternal in the Old Testament, it was primarily a physical context until Pentecost, when the Spirit was sent and men began to have eternal life through relationship with Christ.

No man was born again, born from above, born of the Spirit, born of God...


John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


...prior to the Incarnation. And we can further narrow that down to the very Day of Pentecost when the Disciples were the first men to receive the Promised Spirit.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Paul preached the Gospel, Christ crucified and risen.

Sure. But of course, the gospel is broader than the atonement.

Not when it comes to how one is saved.

Men are saved when they respond to the truths shown them by the Comforter, not by being told they must become disciples and do stuff.

It works both ways. Paul gives us commentary that helps us understand the Gospel and Christ's teachings.

And it is Christ Who said:


John 14:26
King James Version (KJV)

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

Sure, but they both taught the same thing.

It doesn't change what Christ teaches here, lol.

No-one understood Eternal Indwelling, New Birth, Reconciliation, or Atonement at that time. If they had, they would have not been opposed to Christ dying.

We understand because we have received that revelation.

And it is the Comforter, the Promised Spirit...Who enlightens the natural mind to the Gospel:


John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

Yes.

You don't believe that, so why do you say yes?

You are arguing that Christ revealed the Mystery of the Gospel to them during His earthly Ministry.

And the Mystery of the Gospel is revealed by the Spirit of God:


Ephesians 3
King James Version (KJV)

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:

3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

The Spirit made known the mystery of the gospel when Jesus was preaching/teaching it, as well as today. The Spirit was quite active, working with Jesus and empowering His ministry.

Sorry, but Christ ministered in the Age of Law:


Galatians 4:3-5
King James Version (KJV)

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


Note this took place when the fullness of time was come, that Christ might Redeem those who were under the Law, that they might receive the adoption of sons.

I have already shown you this same truth here...


Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The Old Testament Saints received the promises, but those in this Age receive the Promises in a context of receiving what was promised. And not one Old Testament Saint did:


Hebrews 11:13, 39-40
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


The perfection in view, if you read Chapter 10...refers to remission of sins in an eternal context.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

You can make the mistake many do in regards to Paul's statement here, and say the Mystery is Gentile Inclusion...

Nope.

"Nope" what? You don't make that mistake or you reject the point?

...however, what you must consider is that the Mystery was not revealed to the sons of men (and that means all men) in other Ages. It is now revealed to His holy Apostles and Prophets.

By Jesus and the work of the Spirit.

Right. In this Age. Not in prior Ages, not to the saints or sons of men (which means all men), but has now revealed the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ to His holy Apostles and Prophets.

But the significance is understanding when He Came.

Secondly, we know that both Jew and Gentile are made one in Christ only in this Age.

Only in the sense that true Jews (in the spiritual sense) are those with the faith of Abraham. Remember, Abraham was not Jewish. That name came to define his physical descendants, but those who were not his spiritual descendants are not true Israel (Romans 9:6-7).

So you are suggesting that "spiritual Jews" were baptized into Christ prior to Pentecost?

Do I understand you right on that? Please answer this one.

That clarifies that Christ was not revealing the Mystery of the Gospel during His Ministry.

No it doesn't. That's your imagination.

Sorry, no, that is simply the Word of God:


Romans 16:24-26
King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


"All nations" include Israel.

I would also point out the futility of trying to make the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ speak only of Gentile Inclusion: the simple fact is that Gentile Inclusion is spoken of, just the Gospel of Christ is, in the Old Testament as well:


Genesis 12
King James Version (KJV)

1 Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.


Isaiah 42:6-7
King James Version (KJV)

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Apparently you think quoting a bunch of King James scriptures and endlessly repeating the same assertions is the same thing are rightly interpreting scripture. You are mistaken.

Well, it beats having to resort to attacks on my antagonist and ignoring the Scripture they present.

If you would set aside your pride long enough to consider what I am telling you, which is easily done seeing that Scripture speaks for itself, you would see that my doctrine is sound.


God bless.