He did not have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit yet, but he was "saved." And that was the original issue, but you have been shifting the issue throughout the conversation.
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- Thread starter rockytopva
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That stands in direct opposition to Paul's teaching. I think I will stick with what Paul has to say on the matter.
Continued...
Strawman.
No one claims anything else.
Strawman.
Are you simply creating endless posts of scriptural citations so that you don't have to admit you are wrong?
Your charismatic brethren would agree with you. Unfortunately, the Scriptures do not.
Read it again, I can't make you see what is so clear:
Acts 11:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
In reference to the Holy Ghost falling on them, Peter recalls Christ's statement, that "John baptized with water but they would be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When the Disciples of Christ were baptized with the Holy Ghost, they received the Promised Spirit.
You can read in John 14 as to what that means, but to sum it up it refers to the Eternal Indwelling of God, which was not taking place during Christ's ministry.
You can see what was still to take place in the future:
John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
John 14:22-23
King James Version (KJV)
22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?
23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
This was not taking place during His ministry.
Continued...
I am wrong because the best you can come up with is "Strawman"? lol
So show me how you are right, and the Disciples did understand the Scriptures concerning Christ rising from the dead...
...and Scripture is wrong.
Address the points, there isn't a single strawman to be found. Just because you want to define the Baptism with the Holy Ghost as something other than what Peter clearly defines it as doesn't mean you can ignore the points made.
Continued...
It's already been done.
"Repent for the kingdom of God is at hand."
"Follow Me."
Mark 8:31-38
He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.
But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. “Get behind me, Satan!” he said. “You do not have in mind the concerns of God, but merely human concerns.”
Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it. What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them when he comes in his Father’s glory with the holy angels.”
I just quoted a passage that says that very thing. Look at the words in red. If you don't admit you are wrong about this assertion, I will know you don't actually respect the scripture nor are serious about doing anything but arguing.
You are so cocky, you don't understand how wrong you are...
I am not talking about saving faith, I am talking about men being eternally redeemed through the shed blood of Jesus Christ.
The Old Testament Saint was not.
I agree, but we do not equate Abraham being justified by grace through faith, which secured his eternal destiny, and men being eternally redeemed, indwelt by God, and born of God.
Where do you see tongues mentioned in this...
Acts 11:13-18
King James Version (KJV)
13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
...?
I know why you want to reject this, BB, and am very sorry for you.
Continued...
Nice dodge by trying to make me appear to say that I think the evidence of tongues is mandatory for being filled with the Spirit. I have made no such claim. Your desperation is showing.
What Peter has said here is that the manifestation of the Spirit (including tongues) is evidence that God has accepted the Gentiles.
No kidding. No one has said differently. You are trying to cloud the issue.
That has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus proclaimed the gospel.
That has nothing to do with whether or not Jesus proclaimed the gospel.
Okay, so one is saved by taking up their cross and following Christ?
Hate to be around when someone asks you, "Sir, what must I do to be saved?"
Your gospel is works.
Continued...
Because you are arguing against something I have not claimed. The good news is that at least you are not dishonestly taking my words out of context. It would have been nice for you to admit what you did, but I guess that's too much to ask.
I already have.
No, your interpretation of scripture is a mess. You are wrong, not scripture.
They are irrelevant to the conversation.
False accusation.
The Gospel is about the Kingdom?
Can you show me that in Scripture?
So how one gets into the Kingdom is insignificant, its what one does when they are in that counts.
Do you realize how diminutive you are of the Gospel of Jesus Christ? Of the Cross?
I already know the answer, I ask in hopes that you might be honest with yourself. Set aside your pride, my friend.
Continued...
Its a false argument. You can't argue I took what you said out of context...because I included everything I said.
You show me how that changes what you said in any way.
Continued...
If God has declared them righteous, who are you to say that they are not? Redemption in Christ was going to happen. It was as good as done.
Paul did. However, you keep added the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as an add-on to salvation. It was not in their time.
I know the scriptures beyond what you happen to quote. Peter is recounting what happened previously (and recorded in Acts 10) where tongues were manifest in the giving of the Spirit (see Acts 10:46). It happened in the same way as Pentecost in Acts 2. Peter's hearers would already be familiar with the story.
Ad hominem.
Again, the Gospel does not include what men do, only what Christ does.
Because you fail to understand the Mystery of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and that men were not privy to that revelation, you have merged the Kingdom Gospel and the Gospel of Christ and thus diminish the Gospel of Christ.
Now this is a little better.
Nothing passive about the Ministry of the Comforter, my friend.
He is the one that brings the truth to the natural mind.
You keep mentioning Abraham but can I remind you that if God had not gone to him he would never have had the opportunity to believe.
Continued...
So it is not important to know the Scriptures I do quote?
You are not going to change the fact that the Disciples did not know the Scriptures, that Christ should rise from the dead.
Reconcile that with your teaching that Christ was preaching the Gospel of Christ.
Continued...
lol
The point is that Peter defines the Baptism with the Holy Ghost in Acts 11, remember?
And no mention of tongues, and no address by Baptist Believer.
Cornelius was a man justified by his faith but he was not yet saved according to New Covenant provision.
Continued...
That is not precisely what I am countering:
It is your definition of the Gospel that I counter.
The Gospel is centered on Christ and His Work, not what disciples are supposed to do.
Not only do I claim that I have given quite a few passages which you have ignored.
Colossians 1:25-27
King James Version (KJV)
25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
The Mystery has been hid from Ages and generations.
You simply can't argue that.
And please, do not try to argue Gentile Inclusion is in view, because we know not the first Jew or Gentile was baptized into Christ prior to Pentecost.
The "riches of the glory of the Mystery" is the indwelling of Christ, my friend. It did not take place prior to Pentecost.
Continued...
It is what John the Baptist preached. - Matthew 3:3
It is what Jesus preached. - Matthew 4:17, 5:20, 6:10, 6:33, 7:21, 9:35, 12:28, all of Matthew 13 (note 13:11 regarding the "mysteries of the kingdom", Luke 4:43, 8:1, 8:10 (again, "mysteries of the kingdom"), 9:11
It is what Jesus told His disciples to preach - Matthew 10:7, Luke 9:2, 9:60, 10:11,
It is what the disciples did in Acts - Acts 8:12
It is what Paul preached - Acts 19:8, 20:25, 28:23, 28:31
I said nothing of the sort.
Ad hominem.
Ad homenim.
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