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On Heresy

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
We need a reality check here.

In another thread I used the word "heresy" to indicate that there are doctrines that are within Christianity but are of a substantial difference to cause and maintain division within Christian groups, denominations, and congregations.

@Martin Marprelate accused me of using a “secular definition” of heresy as opposed to a “biblical definition”. I was just trying to use the English word. But he is right. I was using the word according to its definition (its “secular” definition) and not reaching back to for some obscure or biblical meaning. I meant the English word - the "dictionary definition" - (not a French, Latin, Greek or Kinglon form of a base word).


BUT by saying I am using a “secular definition” rather than a “biblical definition” @Martin Marprelate has also shown that he is being dishonest about the context of my post. He KNOWS what I was saying but object's to my use of a "secular definition" and provides his own definition. This is not honest discussion. This is the de-contextualization of my words to reconstruct them in another context in order to be offended and complain. It is wrong.


@InTheLight is right, it is obvious that this clique of Calvinists on the BB are offended by just about anything I say. The reason is because they are less than honest with what I do say.

Look, I am not the most articulate and certainly not the most politically correct. I say enough stupid stuff that there is no need to make stuff up about what I do say.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
As bible believers we would do well to drop Calvinsm and Arminism altogether. Neither of these systems are useful for Christianty . Its a ' in house ' squabble . Both systems are false for the same reasons . Because they are so popular it confuses the Body . Calvinism comes and goes in strength roughly every five years . We are currently in the up swing of calvinism infiltration. You only have to type in a bible question on Google and the top hits will be Reformed sites .Arminianism is a branch of Calvinistic thinking, and it is wrong for all the same reasons that Calvinism is wrong.
Arminianism is far from Calvinism right now in its theology!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I am not using the Greek word hairetikos, nor quoting Scripture. I was using the word "heresy".

heresy (n.)
"doctrine or opinion at variance with established standards" (or, as Johnson defines it, "an opinion of private men different from that of the catholick and orthodox church"), c. 1200, from Old French heresie, eresie "heresy," and by extension "sodomy, immorality" (12c.), from Latin hæresis, "school of thought, philosophical sect." The Latin word is from Greek hairesis "a taking or choosing for oneself, a choice, a means of taking; a deliberate plan, purpose; philosophical sect, school," from haireisthai "take, seize," middle voice of hairein "to choose," a word of unknown origin, perhaps cognate with Hittite šaru "booty," Welsh herw "booty;" but Beekes offers "no etymology."

The Greek word was used by Church writers in reference to various sects, schools, etc. in the New Testament: the Sadducees, the Pharisees, and even the Christians, as sects of Judaism. Hence the meaning "unorthodox religious sect or doctrine" in the Latin word as used by Christian writers in Late Latin. But in English bibles it usually is translated sect. Transferred (non-religious) use in English is from late 14c. heresy | Origin and meaning of heresy by Online Etymology Dictionary

Traditionally "heresy" means a departure from Roman Catholic doctrine. I am, under the traditional use of "heresy" a "heretic" because I am a Baptist. "Heresy" means "unorthodox". A "heretic" is a person who holds "unorthodox" views ("heresies"). You called my views "unorthodox" in the past. I did not complain because I knew that in terms of Christianity they were orthodox (in terms of Reformed Theology they were not).

But I gave you how I was using the word. I defined it for you in the context of my own post. I defined it in the micro (as a departure from the doctrines of a specific sect of Christianity).

You are being dishonest that I used "heresy" to bully because I cannot answer with Scripture. I used the word to say that certain beliefs are "unorthodox" or "heresies" by necessity to smaller sects (infant baptism is "unorthodox" to Baptist doctrine; your view of "spiritual death" is unorthodox to SBC doctrine, etc.). Nowhere did I bully anyone (I also said that my belief is "unorthodox" or heresy to the RCC and Reformed Theology.

The argument had nothing to do with Scripture. It had to do with the use of the English word applied to Christian sects and denominationalism.


Do you not think it an overreaction to have such an outburst over one word when I have given you the context and definition of how I am using the word?


This is a "politically correct" issue, not a proper usage of a word debate. You simply do not like the word because of the meaning you - not I - would provide. But since it was my post and I defined it so that it would not be an issue, do you not see how childish it is to have such a tantrum and demand all bow to your expectations?


If the Administration bans words like "heresy" then I'll of course comply. We will have to include synonyms like "unorthodox" and of course "orthodox" as its inverse. But until then I respect the English language and will use words to convey its meaning rather than the "feelings" others may associate with the terms. A while back you took exception to "Reformed Tradition". What about "unorthodox"?
Heresy is any doctrine or theology that goes against what has been established as being valid and orthodox viewpoints! It is clear contradiction of what the scriptures teach...
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Heresy is any doctrine or theology that goes against what has been established as being valid and orthodox viewpoints! It is clear contradiction of what the scriptures teach...
I agree. Heresy is "unorthodox" doctrine. That was my point to @Martin Marprelate when he made those accusations against me. Typically it is "unorthodox" to Catholic doctrine, but I think it can be applied (by definition) to other sects and groups.
 

Derf B

Active Member
Interesting.

I can think of two reasons our areas viewed these things differently (but am not sure how much either applied). First, I wonder if it is because we were close to the SBC headquarters. But second, and probably more importantly, I wonder if it is the influence of Presbyterian schools in our area. Most of our pastors sent their children to private schools (and most to a Presbyterian school). Several members of our churches worked as teachers at these schools (for their children's tuition) and often were outspoken about some of the things the children would say regarding election.

Do you think it is healthy for SBC churches to be ignorant of these issues when they have taken such a role in the academic and at the Convention level in the SBC?

As a SBC pastor I know that you were informed (if I recall correctly, you even posted on the BB about young Calvinistic pastors splitting churches). Is this something that is appropriate for one level (perhaps a staff level at a church) but should be hidden from the congregation to keep a focus on the Kingdom?

It’s pretty strong here in Colorado. I visited a SBC church where the pastor included a warning for those that were joining the church and wanted to bring in Calvinism—saying “don’t do it”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Derf B

Active Member
Heresy is any doctrine or theology that goes against what has been established as being valid and orthodox viewpoints! It is clear contradiction of what the scriptures teach...

By that definition, at least the first sentence (and I’m not saying it’s incorrect), Jesus’ teachings were heretical.

And I’m sure it was clear enough to the religious leaders that it was wrong scripturally that they were willing to have Jesus crucified over it.


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AustinC

Well-Known Member
By that definition, at least the first sentence (and I’m not saying it’s incorrect), Jesus’ teachings were heretical.

And I’m sure it was clear enough to the religious leaders that it was wrong scripturally that they were willing to have Jesus crucified over it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Indeed, Jesus is still considered a heretic and cult leader in Orthodox Judaism.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
It’s pretty strong here in Colorado. I visited a SBC church where the pastor included a warning for those that were joining the church and wanted to bring in Calvinism—saying “don’t do it”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I'm not sure how it is here on the SC GA line (I have been here a couple of years but have not noticed). So here could be like @Revmitchell 's experience.

But the Nashville area certainly was more like you saw in CO. I remember a preacher simply saying that God is in control. A man stood up and said "but not against our will"....lol.
 

tyndale1946

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes, as he is still seen as being a false Messiah, who got what he deserved!

Speaking of Heresy how come in all this post no one has mentioned a book that a heard preacher say is a must read for every Christian... Against Heresies, First Volume In The Anti-Nicene Fathers Collections by Saint Irenaeus Of Lyons... I've got it, in my library, you got it in yours?... Not nitpicking just a heads up... Those who don't have it, you might pick it up... Brother Glen:)
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
Speaking of Heresy how come in all this post no one has mentioned a book that a heard preacher say is a must read for every Christian... Against Heresies, First Volume In The Anti-Nicene Fathers Collections by Saint Irenaeus Of Lyons... I've got it, in my library, you got it in yours?... Not nitpicking just a heads up... Those who don't have it, you might pick it up... Brother Glen:)
Oh Oh Oh.....I got it.....and actually reference it often.

Us heretics have to know what we are up against.
 

tyndale1946

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Oh Oh Oh.....I got it.....and actually reference it often.

Us heretics have to know what we are up against.

Well you know what they say Jon, it takes one to know one!... Glad to meet you Brother Heretic!!!... Is that a put down or an honor?... I let those who don't know, what you know and I know figure that one out... Still the same old Jon... Brother Glen:Roflmao:Roflmao:Roflmao

Btw... Right next to my KJV is the Heresy Manual;)
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Speaking of Heresy how come in all this post no one has mentioned a book that a heard preacher say is a must read for every Christian... Against Heresies, First Volume In The Anti-Nicene Fathers Collections by Saint Irenaeus Of Lyons... I've got it, in my library, you got it in yours?... Not nitpicking just a heads up... Those who don't have it, you might pick it up... Brother Glen:)
What heresies would be addressed that long ago though?
 

tyndale1946

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
What heresies would be addressed that long ago though?

Ah, ha, ha... Read the book!... Ancient Heresies that allow the present heresies to exist... They didn't appear out of thin air... You think this is some new thing?... Think again!!!... Here's a link just for you, Yeshua1... Brother Glen:)

Its some very deep stuff... Enjoy!

Irenaeus of Lyons
 
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