On the incompatibility of structural racism and Oppression with the Baptist Faith and Message

[Baptist Believer]

Discipleship is not part of salvation. It’s part of sanctification. To preach its part of salvation is to preach another gospel.

If you actually go back and look at what I wrote, you would see that I said “conversion” is the first step of discipleship, not “salvation.” Discipleship is cooperation with the process of God’s transformation of our lives (sanctification).

Salvation = the gospel. Period

That’s not what Jesus taught.

Salvation + making disciples = The Great Commission. Period

Being a disciple is essential to making disciples.

Salvation + making disciples + being a disciple = sanctification. Period

I wouldn’t put it quite that way, but it is not error.

Conflation of these will lead to serious theological errors.

I agree. You need to go back and read the teaching of Jesus very carefully.

The agenda to conflate the gospel with discipleship…

Jesus called people to be disciples. He didn’t call them to “get saved.” The modern American church has illegitimately divided salvation from the call to discipleship.

…is to impose the racist, Marxist, hateful crt agenda on the Christian community.

False.

We aren’t stupid

No, but you are misinformed.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

No, it is something less than Christian, but it is congruent with the teachings of Jesus.
...
In other words, 'I will love my enemies when they become a good person like me.' That's the motto of anti-christ.

You've fooled yourself.

You accuse of ad hominem, yet your posts are chock full, not to mention how they twist whatever is said to mean something entirely different, a devilish tactic indeed.

One can love his enemies without approving their anti-Christ agenda, which is what BLM has. But my comment wasn't about that.

The point is that BLM is antithetical to caring about Black lives. The black lives they seem concerned with are those of thugs, even to the point of defunding the police so that they can wreak more havoc, commit even more crimes. No one should like to see the wicked perish, but there are a great many other blacks suffering and dying at the hands of thugs that BLM cares nothing for. Christians have no business being involved with or supporting such an organization.

But now it seems like you are saying these wayward Christians are my enemy. If they are trying to infiltrate the church with their BLM garbage, which no credible person would do, then perhaps they have become my enemy. I still love such people, but will not accept such actions, and will not be fooled by them.

 

[OnlyaSinner]

Then how do you explain that the emphasis on the "if you die tonight, will you be in heaven?" theology that permeates evangelicalism? It is nothing like the message Jesus, Paul, and the New Testament writers teach.

The shift began during the First Great Awakening in the United States, with George Whitefield (slave owner) and Jonathan Edwards (slave owner), among others. The preaching and teaching tended to focus on the heaven vs. hell dynamic instead of a fuller gospel message. Feel free to try refute that with facts, not bluster and accusations.

Jesus called people to be disciples. He didn’t call them to “get saved.” The modern American church has illegitimately divided salvation from the call to discipleship.

The above was excerpted from two separate posts.

First, I wonder what the truth of Whitefield's and Edwards' slaveholding has to do with the appropriateness of their preaching - seems gratuitous to me, though it reminds us that these are fallible men and that we need to take care not to make idols of them nor read their works uncritically. Even the great sin of slaveholding should not have us toss out the baby with the bathwater, and reducing these men to shallow-gospel slavers seems a very shallow treatment of each, especially for such a complex person as Edwards. I'm confident that you don't hold that slaveholding cancels out all other works a person did in life.

Second, it may be accurate to say that Jesus never said "get saved" though He alluded to salvation often. However, after the Resurrection Peter said "must be saved" (Acts 4:12) and Paul wrote "now is the day of salvation". (2 Cor 6:2) Tarring the entire "modern American church" as "illegitimate" for allegedly dividing salvation from discipleship seems overkill. I still see them as separate but equally essential - Eph. 2 and James 2 - one is not valid without the other, but still separate events.

An editorial comment not directly related to your posts: Black Lives Matter is a valid statement - I've read that, population adjusted, Blacks are killed by law enforcement 2.5 times more than Whites, a discrepancy that must be addressed and that I think comes partly thru racism. Since there are nearly 5X Whites as Blacks in the US, the gross number of LEO homicides include more Whites than Blacks. Without wishing to play down the per-capita discrepancy (the :lost sheep" noted upthread), it's troubling to me that the MSM highly publicizes Black killings by LEO, a good thing, while I can't recall a highly publicized LEO killing of a White person. Seems like for the major media "BLM" but "WLdon't".

 

[Baptist Believer]

You accuse of ad hominem, yet your posts are chock full...

Not ad hominem ("against the man"), but against your words and terrible theology.

...not to mention how they twist whatever is said to mean something entirely different, a devilish tactic indeed.

You twist and misquote me all the time. I'm trying to be fair with you. When you plainly state:

I’ll believe black lives matter to those spouting the slogan when black lives matter to blacks, that is, when the black on black crime rate goes way down and when blacks stop having abortions, in other words, when “All Black Lives Matter.” Until then, they’re not fooling anyone but themselves.​

Then you demand that all "black" persons cure the ills of their community before you will accept that black person's lives have value. That's intensely anti-Christian, literally anti-Christ.

Did you accidentally write the wrong thing? Was that in error? If so, just say so and the issue will be set aside.

One can love his enemies without approving their anti-Christ agenda, which is what BLM has.

You refuse to make a distinction between the statement, "Black Lives Matter," and the organization BLM. One is a sentiment, another is a small group of people.

...But my comment wasn't about that.

The point is that BLM is antithetical to caring about Black lives.

Persons who care about black lives or the organization? I'm guess you are talking about the organization here.

The black lives they seem concerned with are those of thugs...

Some of the people who were killed by police had extensive criminal records. A number of them did not. We can have a discussion about specific ones, as to whether lethal force may have been justified, but there seems to be a number of cases where officers have used excessive and/or lethal force when it was completely uncalled for. For instance, Philando Castile. Was he a "thug?" Obviously not, since he was licensed to carry a firearm. What about Atatiana Jefferson? She was in her home when officers made an assumption that she must be a thief and shot her through the window. What about Botham Jean? He was sitting in his own apartment and was shot by a police officer when she entered HIS apartment, thinking it was hers. What about U.S. Army 2nd Lt. Caron Nazario, who was held at gun-point, given contradictory orders by police, pepper-sprayed, and put into handcuffs because the police officers did not notice that he actually had a temporary license tag on his new vehicle? Is he a "thug?" What about Breonna Taylor, shot while sleeping in her own bed by police, when plainclothes officers forced entry into her apartment with a no knock warrant allegedly looking for two men wanted on a drug warrant (who did not live in the apartment) who was already in custody. Her boyfriend, who was there that evening, fired a "warning" shot at the door when he realized someone was trying to break it open, and hit a police officer. He was arrested and charged for attempted murder of a police officer before the charges were later dropped -- Frankly, if someone tried to break into my house in the middle of the night (no knocking and in plain clothes), I would not hesitate to use lethal force. So is she a "thug?" I could go on and on and on, but you get the sense of it.

No one should like to see the wicked perish, but there are a great many other blacks suffering and dying at the hands of thugs that BLM cares nothing for.

You know this, how?

Christians have no business being involved with or supporting such an organization.

I have never advocated aligning with the organization.

But now it seems like you are saying these wayward Christians are my enemy.

No. I am pointing out that Jesus calls us to love our neighbors, even our enemies, so we have no excuse.

If they are trying to infiltrate the church with their BLM garbage, which no credible person would do, then perhaps they have become my enemy.

I don't know the hearts of other people, but believing that Black Lives Matter is not "garbage." Those persons should not be your enemy, but you get to make that choice and account for it before God.

I still love such people, but will not accept such actions, and will not be fooled by them.

You don't love people unless you are willing to stand up for them and advocate for justice. Otherwise it is simply a mental attitude and/or shallow feelings.

 

[RighteousnessTemperance&]

… When you plainly state:

I’ll believe black lives matter to those spouting the slogan when black lives matter to blacks, that is, when the black on black crime rate goes way down and when blacks stop having abortions, in other words, when “All Black Lives Matter.” Until then, they’re not fooling anyone but themselves.
…

Did you accidentally write the wrong thing? Was that in error? If so, just say so and the issue will be set aside.

You refuse to make a distinction between the statement, "Black Lives Matter," and the organization BLM. One is a sentiment, another is a small group of people.

Persons who care about black lives or the organization? I'm guess you are talking about the organization here.

Perhaps that wasn’t worded particularly well, because it is the participation that is the issue, but the point being made all along shouldn’t be that hard to grasp. Spouting the slogan “Black Lives Matter” over a few thugs who died in encounters they instigated with LEO hardly proves one cares anything about Black lives in general, and certainly has nothing to do with systemic racism.

All it does is indicate one is aligned with BLM, which is decidedly anti-police to the point of calling to “Defund the Police,” which is completely antithetical to the needs of Black communities. I have personally witnessed Blacks desperately petitioning for more law enforcement only to have BLM show up and demonstrate counter to that request.

That is bad enough, but the worst of the issue is ignoring the wholesale slaughter of unborn Black children. Anyone overlooking that in their calls for “Black Lives Matter” are ignoring a prime element of systemic racism, again an indication that they really care little for Black lives in general, or even systemic racism in particular.

So here’s a much better assessment of what is transpiring. Aligning with BLM by shouting their “Black Lives Matter” slogan is like claiming to be helping the 1% but really only caring about those who are trying to destroy the 1%. It’s aligning with wolves. Madness.

Christians should be about “ALL Lives Matter” which includes “ALL Black Lives Matter.” Christians should not help the wolves, but rather expose them and drive them away from the sheep.

And just to be clear, especially in America it is a lie that the 1% is comprised of Blacks alone. Similarly, it is a lie that all Blacks are part of the 1%.

 

[George Antonios]

Submitted to the 2021 Southern Baptist Convention Resolutions Committee

WHEREAS, The Baptist Faith and Message states, “Christians should work to provide for the orphaned, the needy, the abused, the aged, the helpless, and the sick,” (Article 15); and

WHEREAS, The Baptist Faith and Message states that Scripture, “is God’s revelation of Himself to man. . . . All Scripture is a testimony to Christ, who is Himself the focus of divine revelation.” (Article 1); and

WHEREAS, The Baptist Faith and Message states that human beings. “fell from his original innocence whereby his posterity inherit a nature and an environment inclined toward sin.” (Article 3); and

WHEREAS, The Baptist Faith and Message states that, “Every Christian should seek to bring industry, government, and society as a whole under the sway of principles of righteousness, truth, and brotherly love,” (Article 15); and


WHEREAS, The Baptist Faith and Message provides, in order to promote these ends, Christians should be ready to work with all men of good will in any good cause, always being careful to act in the spirit of love without compromising their loyalty to Christ and His truth. (Article 15); and

WHEREAS, Scripture recognizes that society sinfully groups people in man-made hierarchies “according to the flesh” (2 Cor 5:16) whether Jew, Gentile, slave, free, black, white, rich, or poor (Gal. 3:18; Eph. 2:11; Phil 16) and

WHEREAS, the legal theory known as Critical Race Theory and an accompanying sociological observation termed Intersectionality were considered by messengers to the 2019 Annual Meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention to be “analytical tools,” the former explaining “how race has and continues to function in society,” while the latter “is the study of how different personal characteristics overlap and inform one’s experience,” neither of which contradicts Scripture; and


WHEREAS, Scripture teaches us that laws and legal systems can be unjust and oppressive, used to harm different people in a society (Dan. 3:4, 20; 6:6-9; Amos 5:11; Matt. 27:26; Luke 23:24; James 2:6); and

WHEREAS, Critical Race Theory explores the unjust subordination of groups of people by race currently existing in American society, being embedded in Supreme Court decisions, lower court opinions, and instantiated in statutes; and

WHEREAS, the conditions created by such subordination has impacted child welfare, caused inequities that lead to abuse and neglect, creating greater risk for the unborn and aged and the reduced availability healthcare in these groups; and

WHEREAS, those harmed by laws and judicial opinions have been absorbed into the wider culture in which they have neither power nor voice (Prov. 31:8-9) to change the structures and systems that harm them; and


WHEREAS, The Southern Baptist Convention Messengers in 1989 recognized our own historical missteps and ongoing temptations in the area of race saying we should, “repent of any past bigotry and pray for those who are still caught in its clutches”; and

WHEREAS, Messengers to the 1961 Southern Baptist Convention acknowledged “an especially keen sense of Christian responsibility in this hour” of racial tension; and

WHEREAS, Messengers to the 1944 Southern Baptist Convention sought to avoid “the danger which crouches at our doors, that we shall be guilty of unchristian attitudes and actions” related to race; and

WHEREAS, Messengers to the 2015 Southern Baptist Convention stated, “Racism is sin because it disregards the image of God in all people and denies the truth of the Gospel that believers are all one in Him”; and


WHEREAS, Messengers to the 2017 Southern Baptist Convention confessed “our continuing need to root out vestiges of racism from our own hearts as Southern Baptists”; and

WHEREAS, Messengers to the 1995 Southern Baptist Convention apologized, “and/or perpetuating individual and systemic racism in our lifetime; and we genuinely repent of racism of which we have been guilty, whether consciously (Psalm 19:13) or unconsciously (Leviticus 4:27)”; and

WHEREAS, Messengers to the 2019 Southern Baptist Convention understood their need for the tools that assist them in becoming aware of all the places racism can exist in a society, so that we can “bring industry, government, and society under the sway of righteousness” (BFM, Article 15); therefore, be it


RESOLVED,That the messengers to the annual meeting of the Southern Baptist Convention, meeting in Nashville, Tenn., June 15-16, 2021, thank God for his common grace at work in society to reveal evil; and be it further

RESOLVED, that these moments call for humility that God’s Holy Spirit is at work exposing these deeds done in the darkness so that gospel-centered, grace-saturated Southern Baptists would support the legal challenges necessary to change laws, thereby bringing a more just and biblical society; and be it further

RESOLVED, that those who recognized the harm brought to subordinated people to which society was previously unaware and the litigators who brought it to light were fulfilling the biblical admonition to “do justice” (Micah 5:8); and be it further

RESOLVED, that at the same time Southern Baptists would bear their crosses to the suffering outside the camp in fulfillment of the Great Commission to go into all the world where the law kills but God’s grace revealed in Jesus brings life, freedom, and reconciliation.

SBC Resolution: Submitted

Yet another reminder that J Frank Norris saw the wicked worldliness of the SBC and ditched it in the early 20th century.
What a bunch of man-fearing world-conforming flowery-speaking people.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Yet another reminder that J Frank Norris saw the wicked worldliness of the SBC and ditched it in the early 20th century.

Norris has a lot of wickedness in him. He likely burned down his church building twice, as well as the parsonage, and was very likely guilty of murdering Dexter Chipps in his office. The only way he was cleared of perjury charges was because no one could remember if he was sworn in for his second day of testimony, and it was not recorded in the record. Therefore, the demonstrable lies he told on the witness stand were not chargeable.

If you hitch your wagon to the character of J. Frank Norris, you morally compromise yourself.

What a bunch of man-fearing world-conforming flowery-speaking people.

"Man-fearing"? No, person loving, Christ conforming, people.

 

[George Antonios]

Norris has a lot of wickedness in him. He likely burned down his church building twice, as well as the parsonage, and was very likely guilty of murdering Dexter Chipps in his office. The only way he was cleared of perjury charges was because no one could remember if he was sworn in for his second day of testimony, and it was not recorded in the record. Therefore, the demonstrable lies he told on the witness stand were not chargeable.

If you hitch your wagon to the character of J. Frank Norris, you morally compromise yourself.

He was framed for the burning.
As for the "murder", the cartel sent the man up to shoot Norris in his office. Norris talked him out of it.
Norris then looked out the window and saw the senders returning Chipps back up, so he knew this time he wouldn't be able to talk him out of it.
You're talking about a man who made many enemies by preaching hard against their sins.

You morally compromise yourself by attaching yourself to that statement of the SBC.
My Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ was nothing of the sort, nor were the prophets.
How unlike that statement from the preachings of the prophets!

Rom 16:18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Jude 1:16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

Joh_12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

Rom_12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

Some of us Bible-reading, Bible-believing minorities can smell a con a mile away.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yet another reminder that J Frank Norris saw the wicked worldliness of the SBC and ditched it in the early 20th century.
What a bunch of man-fearing world-conforming flowery-speaking people.

Thats not representative of the entire convention. It’s just what is being submitted by a very few for consideration.

 

[George Antonios]

Thats not representative of the entire convention. It’s just what is being submitted by a very few for consideration.

The fact that it can even come up says a lot + a host of similar issues earlier, including from presidents.

 

[Baptist Believer]

He was framed for the burning.

That's what he claimed, but it's quite clear the threatening letters came from his pen. Since he was sending the threatening letters to himself, it is quite clear he didn't mind lying on the witness stand. It would stand to reason that he wasn't framed, since he had a clear motive to burn the church plant down and had wished it publicly before it happened.

As for the "murder", the cartel sent the man up to shoot Norris in his office.

The "cartel"?

Norris talked him out of it. Norris then looked out the window and saw the senders returning Chipps back up, so he knew this time he wouldn't be able to talk him out of it.

Where are you getting this information? As far as I can recall, Norris didn't make this claim during the trial. Dexter Chipps entered his office exactly once, according to his secretary and Norris' testimony. Chipps was also shot in the back.

You're talking about a man who made many enemies by preaching hard against their sins.

He was also in the midst of a vicious anti-Catholic campaign against Mayor Meacham, claiming that the City of Fort Worth was financing the Catholic Church since they bought a piece of Catholic Church property, along with property from many others, to widen an alleyway into a downtown street. Technically, the city passed money to the Catholic church, but it was in exchange for property, so it was hardly financing "the Catholics." Norris also paid boys to stand outside Meacham's store and hand out flyers that made all kinds of false claims about Meacham. Chipps, a friend of Meacham's, went to go confront Norris about his harassments of Meacham, and was shot dead while trying to escape Norris's office. Chipps was unarmed.

You morally compromise yourself by attaching yourself to that statement of the SBC.

That's really funny. You bring up Norris as some sort of moral guide and claim I'm compromised...

Some of us Bible-reading, Bible-believing minorities can smell a con a mile away.

Do you realize that Norris was an open supporter of the KKK? He even allowed them to use the FBC Fort Worth facilities for their meetings... Do you think the KKK (or Norris) cared about Bible-believing minorities?