"Once saved, always saved"--Fact or Fiction?

Hey Frank

Nonsense! Jesus commanded perfection (Matt 5:48) James says that any one sin is equivalent of breaking the whole law (James 2:10). Isaiah says that even the best of our righteous deeds are as filthy rags. Paul declares that there are none that do right (Rom 3) and that all will be condemned based on self-righteousness (Rom 3:19)

Perfection resides OUTSIDE of us in Jesus Christ. Unless we receive His perfection, we are doomed. Any move to substitute our imperfection for His perfection - OR - adds our imperfection to His perfection - results in death. Your system sends the entire race to hell for none can comply with the scriptural demand for perfection.

Your appeals to 2 Tim 4:6-8 and Rev 22 don't work because they pertain to crowns of righteousness and rewards. Crowns and rewards are synonyms that relate to sanctification - not justification.

You have confused justification and sanctification - yet again!

Lloyd

 

Doubting Thomas:
Thanks, for the encouragement.

 

Nonsense! Jesus commanded perfection (Matt 5:48) James says that any one sin is equivalent of breaking the whole law (James 2:10). Isaiah says that even the best of our righteous deeds are as filthy rags. Paul declares that there are none that do right (Rom 3) and that all will be condemned based on self-righteousness (Rom 3:19)

Perfection resides OUTSIDE of us in Jesus Christ. Unless we receive His perfection, we are doomed. Any move to substitute our imperfection for His perfection - OR - adds our imperfection to His perfection - results in death. Your system sends the entire race to hell for none can comply with the scriptural demand for perfection.

Your appeals to 2 Tim 4:6-8 and Rev 22 don't work because they pertain to crowns of righteousness and rewards. Crowns and rewards are synonyms that relate to sanctification - not justification.

You have confused justification and sanctification - yet again!

Lloyd </font>[/QUOTE]The word used in Matt 5:48 that is translated perfect is Teleios and it means complete or mature. It does not mean sinless.

As long as we stay in the light, the blood will keep on cleaning us of sin (I John 1:7). Part of that process is continuing to confess our sins (I John 1:9).

John also gives a warning. He tells them that it does matter what you do, don't let anyone deceive you. He says, "Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil" - I John 3:7-8

I personally have never met or talked with anyone who believed in or taught a works based salvation. Yes, I have seen that falsely assigned to individuals, but have never met anyone who thought their good works were enough save them. There is usually a lack of understanding or malicious intent, either wilfull or not, when someone falsely assigns a belief to someone else.

I am on the record when I say, "I cannot earn even one moment of my eternal salvation".

I am also on the record when I say that I believe what John wrote in I John 2:3-5, "And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him:"

Perfected or "Teleioo", the verb form of "Teleios". This is how we are "perfect" or complete, when we keep his commandments. Obviously from John's earlier statements, we are not sinless, just forgiven, as long as we stay in the light and keep confessing our sins to God.

 

Mman:
Your response to "perfect" is correct. I appreciate it.

 

Hey mman

This is true – but only as it applies to sanctification. The need for continuous cleansing must alert you to the inner depravity that keeps producing sins.

The key question is: What level of perfection is required in order to reach final justification? Who can satisfy God’s demands for perfection even when they are confessing sins?

Even the act of confessing sins is as filthy rags to God (Isa 64:6). If you depend on filthy rags for justification – you are in deep trouble.

Do you see what you are doing? You are dancing all around looking for a way to make human righteousness and obedience a means to please God with respect to eternal life. This will never work. Eternal life depends on simple faith in Jesus Christ and His righteousness.

Once saved, do all the good works of obedience that you can – for eternal rewards. But note well that destiny and rewards are contrasting concepts. You are confusing them as you do justification and sanctification.

Lloyd

 

This is true – but only as it applies to sanctification. The need for continuous cleansing must alert you to the inner depravity that keeps producing sins.

The key question is: What level of perfection is required in order to reach final justification? Who can satisfy God’s demands for perfection even when they are confessing sins?

Even the act of confessing sins is as filthy rags to God (Isa 64:6). If you depend on filthy rags for justification – you are in deep trouble.

Do you see what you are doing? You are dancing all around looking for a way to make human righteousness and obedience a means to please God with respect to eternal life. This will never work. Eternal life depends on simple faith in Jesus Christ and His righteousness.

Once saved, do all the good works of obedience that you can – for eternal rewards. But note well that destiny and rewards are contrasting concepts. You are confusing them as you do justification and sanctification.

Lloyd </font>[/QUOTE]Our sanctification is by the blood of the covenant (Heb 10:29), or Jesus own blood (Heb 13:12). We are sanctified through the offering of Jesus (Heb 10:10), not by good works that we do.

Sanctification by the blood of Jesus. Jesus said in Matt 26:28, "For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."

The same greek phrase which is translated here as "for the remission of sins" is also found in Acts 2:38. Baptism is for the remission of sins. This is indeed how we are sanctified, though the blood of the covenant, that we come in contact with when we are baptized.

Without the shedding of (Jesus') blood there is no remission of sins (Heb 9:22, 10:4) or sanctification.

The blood that sanctifies us also purchased the Church (Acts 20:28). We are added to the church at baptism (Acts 2:41,47). Thus, we are sanctified, added to the church, and forgiven of our sins at baptism, not because we earned it, but because God said so. That is faith.

 

Lloyd:
This is your theology on salvation.
Noah was a righteous man. You believe this to mean perfect. If this were the case, he would not have needed God the ark or water to save him. The context, your favorite technique when attempting to teach false doctrine means Noah was doing right among those of whom he lived. he was not sinless.
The implication of what you espouse is the following:
1. Noah could do nothing to be saved. After all, faith is passive. God does it all. Men can do nothing. The bible says he did do ALL. Gen. 6:22. By faith Noah, moved. he built the ark.
2. If this were true, and it is not, then Noah, according to the implication of what you believe, would have said," Ark no need to build it. God will save me. After all, he does it all. I can do nothing. Later, Noah says, "Oops! It is raining! Help!!! BLUB! BLUB!"

3. Joshua would be sitting on his hands at the walls of Jericho still waiting for them to fall. Hebs. 10:29,30.
One who has been washed is justified. I Cor. 6:9-11. He is at that point in time sanctified and meet for the masters use. II Tim. 2:19-21. While he must continue the process of sanctification, he must first be justified and sanctified by the blood of Christ. It is the only cleansing agent for sin at any point and time in our life. Rev. 1:5, Eph. 5:25,26, I John 1:7, Acts 22:16.

Your argument about justification and sanctification is simply absurd. It contradicts the clear teaching of the entire bible. God's principles of Grace, Faith and Obedience have never changed. No exceptions! Spirtual blessings always follow the three eternal principles of God. You just do not understand them.


Your doctrine is a hewn cistern that holds no water.

 

Hey Frank

You miss the most important point. God Himself declared Noah to be just and perfect (Gen 6:9). However, you must understand this in the context of justification - not sanctification.

We are required only to look to Jesus (John 3). This is given by Jesus Himself. Noah's construction of the ark comes AFTER his justification. This is sanctification.

Faith (justification) + obedience (sanctification). How much clearer does it have to be.

Justification is by faith alone. Any move to make sanctification a part of justification is grave error. It is a system of death for none can comply.

Lloyd

 

Had Noah not built the ark he too would have perished. His obedience further demonstrated and completed his faith. It's futile to separate the two. Had he balked at God's command to build the ark he would then be counted as unfaithful and no longer justified.

Wrong. Faith and faithful obedience go hand and hand and are required for our ongoing and final justification and sanctification.

Wrong. This is clearly contradicted by James 2:24 which says that we are justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

Physically, yes, he would have perished. Eternally, no. Disobedience and faith are two separate things.

I'm afraid you have it wrong according to Ephesians 2:8-9.

Again you are wrong. If you backed up to verse 14 you will see that the faith being mentioned is an intellectual faith, not saving faith.

 

Greetings

True, but he would have yet been saved. Death is not an equivalent to eternal damnation. Just consider Moses who fell in the wilderness before he reached the Promised Land.

Only partial truth. Faith and faithful obedience go hand in hand. Totally wrong is that works determine final justification. The faithless believer of 1 Cor 3:11-15 had all his works consumed in the fires of judgment YET WAS STILL SAVED. Romans 8 presents the certainty of final glorification at the moment of justification. 1 Cor 6:11 presents justification and sanctification as completed events at the moment of faith. Salvation is not a PROCESS.

 

The arguement here is that to live like the devil would demonstrate the unsaved condition of the person in question.

 

Hi Frank, I must compliment you. Normally you seem cold and calculated but your last few posts have been very charitable. Are we seeing a kinder and gentler Frank?? Thanks for the post.

Number one no one answered my question in reference to when in the process of disobeying do we go fro saved to un-saved. What if I am going to confess the sin but don't get around to it? I don't mean to harp on that sort of thing but it is important. Also, Frank and others what would you do in regards to your child sliding toward a pool of acid?? I would like those questions answered. Anyway, Frnak said we are not expected to be perfect. I think the main point about jesus is being over looked here. Why was Jesus able to be the once for all sacrifice? Because he was sinless and perfect before God. Why were non of the Prophets able to die for our sacrifice? Because they were not perfect. Why couldn't any of us die for the sins of the world? because we are not perfect. Jesus was sinless and thus met God's requirement of complete sinless perfection (no spot or blemish). So what does God demand of us to be saved? No spots or blemishes of any kind is what he always has and always will. Because God is merciful He allowed man to atone for his sins through sacrifcing of the blood of animals. Man then and man now cannot attain God's command of being without spot or blemish but God sent Jesus to take our place in the payment for not being without spot or blemish. Now we clothe ourselves with whose righteousness? -----Our own obedience? our own works and deeds? Heaven forbid!! as those things would not meet the demands of a perfect God. No the Bible says we clothe ourselves in the righteousness of Christ. The image is of us putting on a huge coat that fully covers us. Now when God looks upon us He see's us without spot or blemish and that is why we qualify for Heaven. Trusting in our own obedience leaves us short of what God demands, way short in fact. The further point is that God sees the heart directly and sees the future. Follow this logic as it is really important. Why would God save someone, have those in Heaven rejoice over the found one, knowing that the saved one would lose faith and go to Hell in the end. I can't imagine a God whose saves knowing that in the end the person will not be saved. Why would he save the person in the first place?? It makes way more sense that God knows who are His and saves them forever, Let the rejoicing begin!!

In Christ,
Brian

P.S. I am all mixed up on what scripture still may need explanation. Please re-quote a verse that you think shows OSAS to be false. Thanks!

Also, as I said in the begining of this post, though my post was addressed the specific questions in my illustration were not.

 

Since we are not the judge and only God knows the heart, I think it would be presumptious on anyone's part to declare when one went from a saved condition to a lost condition.

With that said, let me give my thoughts according to the scriptures.

First, lets look at I Pet 2:20-22, "For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

There are several things to notice. First, they have escaped the defilements of the world through Jesus Christ.

They know the way of righteousness, then turn from it.

Where did they go from saved to lost? From this passage, I would say when they were "again entangled in them and overcome".

If once saved always saved were true, it would never be "better for them NEVER to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them".

The parable of the sower also shows that one can receive the word then only endure for a little while. Matt 13:20-23 "But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; 21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. 22 Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful. 23 But he who received seed on the good ground is he who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and produces: some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.”

James 5:19-20, "My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins."

What do you think it means, "wander from the truth"? What is the result of wandering form the truth? Death is the result. What kind of death? Physical or spiritual? Our soul can only be saved from one kind of death, and that is eternal separation from God or spiritual death.

Romans 11, Heb 6, and every passage that is conditional such as "Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall." - II Pet 1:10

It would be useless to commend someone to be diligent to do something that was 100% certain, don't you think? If we do those things, we can have full confidence and assurance.

What if you don't practice those things? The obvious answer is "you can fall and your calling and election are no longer sure".

Believe it or not, I agree with most of what you say. We are righteous because God declares us to be. We don't earn it, never have, never will. I could not, even in a thousand years of dedicated service, earn any righteousness or justification. Justification by faith is an undeniable fact of the New Testament. Heb 11 gives example after example of pleasing faith.

Heb 11:30, by faith, the walls of Jericho fell. Their actions were not thought up by the people. No, God told them what to do. I'm sure it didn't make any sense to them, but the obeyed. Did their actions in any way earn the reward? Of course not. They were not actions of merit, they were actions of obedient faith. If they were actions of merit, then God would "owe" it to anyone who performed those same actions today.

The people obeyed and the walls fell down, or as the Hebrew writer says, "By faith the walls of Jericho fell down". The same principle applies today. My actions do not earn me anything! God declares me righteous.

James 2 tells us, "You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; 23and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"-- and he was called a friend of God."

We don't have to wonder when the scripture was fulfilled, because James tells us.

 

Lloyd:

Foolishness. A man that is justified needs no salvation. If God had made him justified. he would have not needed to be saved. The bible clearly teaches Noah and eight souls were saved by water. I Pet. 3;19-21. Again, the implication of what you believe means Noah was justified BEFORE he was saved. This is an absolute falsehood. To borrow your favorite line, read the context. Gen. 6.
The word righteous in the context means a moral uprightness as compared to those of his day. Again, context is the best way to determine meaning of any word. As of late, you have been preaching lot about hermeneutics. Try a novel approach. Use it!

Furthermore, only an obedient faith is rewarded, not a passive one. NO EXCEPTION.You can stomp and whine like a litle child but it will not change the word of God. By the way, Provide on example of a passive faith being saved, rewarded or blessed spiritually. So far, your response has been BOOK 000, CHAPTER 000, VERSE 000. If I were a betting man, I would wager that will be the final answer, too!

You can search today, tomorrow and until the end of time with the mind of Einstein and not find a passive faith being rewarded spiritually.

Lloyd, lesson one in theolgy. There are three eternal unchanging principles of God. Grace, Faith, Obedience. ALL spiritual blessings are IN Christ. Again, for slow learners. HOW does one get INTO CHRIST? Class, turn to Gal. 3:26-29 and read. It will read that way on the day of judgment, too!

Your take on Mark 16:16 violates the basic rules of grammar. I have no idea which senminary or school you are attending, but you should ask for a refund because they have failed you in Grammar 101.

Col. 2;14 acknowledges the removal of the old testament law as a system. Note verse 16. Again, follow your own advice context.

Question: According to Lloyd, WHEN does one begin sanctification?
Question: How does language work?

I can hardly await the disertation on these two questions.

 

faith = belief

born again =

adjective
1.
a. Of, relating to, or being a person who has made a conversion or has renewed a committment to Jesus Christ as his or her personal savior; a born again Christian.
b. Of or relating to evangelical Christianity.

2. Characterized by renewal, resurgence, or return: born again patriotism; a born again fiscal conservative.

 

Actually, born again is a reference to John 3. It can also mean born from above.

Jesus said, "Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." 4Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" 5Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." - John 3:3-5

If you compare verse 3 and verse 5, Born again = born of water and spirit.

Faith does not equal believe. Heb 11 gives us examples of pleasing faith, without which we cannot be pleasing to God (Heb 11:6). Never is one said to have faith that was not obedient. Never!

By faith, Noah prepared and ark (Heb 11:7). Can we substitute belief? By belief only, Noah prepared an ark. No, I think he had some actions to perform. In fact, he did all that God commanded (Gen 6:22), that is why it can be said, "by faith, Noah... prepared an ark".

Heb 11:30, By faith, the walls of Jericho fell down. Let's try to substitute again. By belief only, the walls of Jericho fell down. No, they fell when they obeyed what God told them to do. It was after they were obedient that the walls fell or as the Hebrew writer says, "By faith...".

The source of faith is God's word (Rom 10:17). When we obey, we do it by faith. Therefore, any action we do, if it is in obedience to God's word, can be said to be done, "by faith", just as Heb 11 points out.

You can go through the whole chapter of Heb 11 and you will see time and time again where you CANNOT substitute belief for faith.

Without that type of faith it is impossible to please God. With belief only, you are no different than the demons (James 2:19) or the rulers in John 12:42.

 

To be more specific:

faith

"noun

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea or thing."

"2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence."

"3. Loyalty to a person or thing; allegiance: keping faith with one's supporters."

"4. Often Faith Christianity. The theological virtue defined as secure belief in God and a trusting acceptance of God's will."

"5. The body or dogma of a religion."

"6. A set of principles or beliefs."

"American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition" Copyright 2000

Thus, according to the English language, it appears to be impossible to define "faith" without using the word "belief."

 

Yep, it looks like the walls of Jericho were true believers (obeyers).

To be born again, the only act one needs do to please God is to embrace the faith.

 

Hi all, I see that basically none of the depth of my posts have been answered. I asked some very challanging things to you non-OSAS crowd and only the surface of my questions get answered. You have answered a little, kind of like drinking your milk at dinner but leaving the meat on your plate.

Answer this: If God knows that a person is going to get "saved" but end up losing faith and spending eternity in hell (God knows all), why would he save the person in the first place???? What would the point be.??

Also, only one person tried to answer the verse about KNOWING we have eternal life. Let's review, if I KNOW I have eternal life it is forever and ever. I can't lose what is forever or it was not eternal to begin with. Eternal has to be eternal and if I can know it it is forever the instant I know it. Please answer that.

I feel like I should not answer new questions until you address my earlier questions.

Also, your child is sliding toward a pool of acid, do you catch him or let him go? Even if you told him the danger of the slide and not to go down it. What would you do??

To whoever mentioned Abraham, Abraham was rigtheous by faith, believing faith, many years before he was obedient with Issac. He was justfied by faith not works. The Bible is very clear on that. God does not have to see our works, he knows our hearts. Man has to see our works to have "proof" of our faith, God does not. Our light is shown to others by our actions! Our light was given us by God because he saw our heart directly and chose a people unto himself!! In Acts it says about the Gentiles that the Gentiles were preached the Gospel and those God ordained, believed. Is salvation by election, is it free will? that can wait but the fact is that God knows from the beginging and He does not have to go around saving people who will be lost in the end!

I am going camping today and may not see the responses until Sunday or Monday. Please take some time to address what I said. Thanks so much,

In Christian love and concern,
Brian