"Once saved, always saved"--Fact or Fiction?

[bmerr]

webdog,

bmerr here. I still can't find any reference to "the antichrist". I think a lot of confusion has resulted from the insistence that Revelation is a look at "end times". Historically, most of Revelation has already come to pass.

Anyway, the pope is presented as fitting the description of the "man of sin", not "the antichrist".

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Briguy]

Hi bmer, I can see how you got what you did from my last question. What I am getting at is that "once we respond to the gospel something happens" We get SAVED. Saved from our sins and the nature of Sin that holds us. When we get saved God's hand comes down from heaven and opens up before us. The question is do we hang on to His hand with our strength and obedience or does He scoop us up in His hand and hold on to us with the obedience already given by Christ, His Son, who was obedient, even unto death on a cross. Hopefully, you see the difference.

The falling away does not have to mean Christians losing their salvation. It may not have to do with Christians at all. It could simply be a world where God no longer is accepted as creator, where His very exisitence is felt by the mainstream to be in question. If it is Christians, we could compare it to the prodigal son. Out of fellowship, but not out of salvation. Lloyd has shown from scripture how we can be saved and not in fellowship. Our rewards are few but we are saved from the fire. Either way you view the verse it is not a sound argument against OSAS. Lloyd brought up another good point. Christ was the FINAL sacrifice and paid for all sins. Once a person is saved all of His sins are forgiven, including future, because he is not going back to the cross again. If we could lose our salvation and be subject to having to pay the penality of our sins then we would need to be re-forgiven for sins already paid for. Jesus paid the price once. Once we trust that forgiveness it has to be forever or jesus would have to die over and over again to provide the needed sacrifice. Think on that for awhile.

In Christian love and concern,
Brian

 

[ascund]

Greetings Briguy

Originally posted by Briguy:
If we could lose our salvation and be subject to having to pay the penality of our sins then we would need to be re-forgiven for sins already paid for. Jesus paid the price once. Once we trust that forgiveness it has to be forever or jesus would have to die over and over again to provide the needed sacrifice.

Romans 6:7 declares, "he that is dead is freed from sin." The English word "freed" comes from the Greek word dikaiow. It is actually a Perfect Passive.

The passive voice means that the freedom of sin that comes from justification is a PASSIVE event. God actively declares the passive believer to be righteous.

The Perfect tense declares the continuing results of that declaration of righteousness. It is the technical equivalent to OSAS.

God bless!
Lloyd

 

[mman]

Nothing, nor no one, can take away from us the salvation we now possess in connection with Christ Jesus. Roman 8:35-39 makes this obvious. However, I never lose my free will to sin willfully.

Revelation 2:10, the Lord assures a “crown of life” only to those who remain “faithful unto death.” If it were impossible to not remain faithful, then the admonition is useless.

Ephesians (1:1) and Colossians (1:2) are addressed to the faithful. In Acts 14:22, Paul exhorted them to “continue in the faith”. God’s word makes it clear that eternal life is dependent upon our continued faithfulness (Colossians 1:20-23). “If you continue in the faith” implies that turning from the faith is certainly possible. In fact, in Galatians 5:4, the apostle Paul makes it clear that a child of God can fall from grace. You cannot fall from grace if you were never covered by grace.

Salvation is dependent upon God’s grace, no question. Without grace, man would be lost. Man cannot save himself or earn his own salvation. However, man is not without obligation. Since God’s saving grace has appeared to all men, there is something that sets apart the saved from the lost (Titus 2:11-12). What is it? Faithful obedience. In other words, Christ is the author of eternal salvation unto all those who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9).

The idea that one cannot be cast off forever is not taught in the Scriptures. In Matt 10:22, Jesus said, “But he who endures to the end will be saved.” The implication is clear that if we do not endure we will be lost?

In John 15:2, He said, “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.” In verse 6, He also says, “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.” Does this sound like “Once saved always saved”?

This is exactly is taught in Romans 11:21-22, “For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

“Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, IF you hold fast that word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain” (1 Corinthians 15:1-2).

II Pet 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

This passage clearly refutes OSAS. What is the real motivation to not accept the clear teaching? I think it is because of the major foundational cracks it causes. For faith only to be true, then OSAS is its logical conclusion.

It’s very dangerous to approach scripture with pre-conceived ideas and biases, attempting to prove what we already believe, rather than believe and accept what we read. To have the whole truth on a subject, we need to read all God has said on that subject.

May it never be said that we have, “eyes that would not see and ears that would not hear” – Rom 11:8

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Mman,
Excellent post.
DT

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by mman:
Nothing, nor no one, can take away from us the salvation we now possess in connection with Christ Jesus. Roman 8:35-39 makes this obvious. However, I never lose my free will to sin willfully.

You need remedial instruction on justification and sanctification. You have blended them together to make a process that depends on human obedience. The Bible is clear that no human obedience pleases God (Rom 1:19-3:19). Only Christ's righteousness pleases God (Rom 3:20-31). Therefore justification is by faith in Jesus alone (Rom 5:1).

When you sin willfully, you will be judged as the foolish believer in 1 Cor 3:11-15 who LOST EVERYTHING but was

YET STILL SAVED!

Originally posted by mman:
Revelation 2:10, the Lord assures a “crown of life” only to those who remain “faithful unto death.” If it were impossible to not remain faithful, then the admonition is useless.

Your human-centered view is eager to tie crowns to the second death since you think that you will be rewarded for continued works of Spirit guided obedience.

But crowns are symbols of rewards, of distinctions earned. Crowns were used with kings and winners of various competitions. This is a special reward for endurance under persecution. Here are other uses of crowns:
___The Bride is crowned with wisdom (Prov 4:9),
___The prudent have a crown of knowledge (Prov 14:18),
___The wise are crowned with riches (Prov 14:24),
___The elderly are crowned with glory for a righteous life—(Prov 16:31),
___Grandchildren are the crown of old men (Prov 17:6).
These verses all confirm that crowns are a reward; not the determination of a destiny dependent on good and faithful works.

Originally posted by mman:
God’s word makes it clear that eternal life is dependent upon our continued faithfulness (Col 1:20-23).

The “if” clause modifies the presentation of the believer as holy, unblameable, and unreproveable. It has nothing to do with salvation. It is terrible exegesis to slice up a passage and pick and choose only what you want.

Originally posted by mman:
Galatians 5:4, a child of God can fall from grace. You cannot fall from grace if you were never covered by grace.

This verse is a terminology pitfall. Your view wants you to think that falling from grace is a security issue. But Paul has just spent an entire letter contrasting justification by law versus justification by grace. His point is that anyone who now seeks to be justified by good works has fallen away from justification by God’s grace given freely to all through Jesus Christ.

The issue is not whether or not one is secure in Christ. The issue deals with the method of salvation, law or grace, which will you choose? All one has to do is look at the verse that follows this passage in order to stay clear of this terminology pitfall.

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (5:5).

Originally posted by mman:
Christ is the author of eternal salvation unto all those who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9).

Big Wrong. This obedience is simple passive faith in Jesus; not active human obedience (John 6:28-29; 1 John 3:23; 5:4-5).


ENOUGH! You make the same mistake over and over. You confuse justification with sanctification at every turn. While scripture denounces human obedience (Rom 3:19) - you make it the central pillar of your system of death.

How can you so willfully cut out so much Bible? Have you never considered human depravity?

Lloyd

 

[Doubting Thomas]

ENOUGH! You make the same mistake over and over.

Wow...if this is not the biggest case of pot-calling-the-kettle-black, I don't know what is...so to you--ENOUGH, YOURSELF!

You confuse justification with sanctification at every turn.

You falsely separate them "at every turn". You seek to tear assunder what the Scriptures always hold together.

How can you so willfully cut out so much Bible?

That's a question that should be more appropriately aimed at yourself, considering the lengths you go to distort and ignore scriptures to support your heretical antinomian viewpoint. If your view wasn't so dangerous and heretical, it would be comical watching you engage in the same repetitive hermeneutical gymnastics in each of your posts. Have you ever considered human responsibility? It wouldn't seem so, given your preaching of a purely "passive faith". Faith without works is dead, my friend, and it therefore ultimately cannot avail for salvation.

Selah,

DT

 

[Briguy]

On Matthew 18: What we have here is a parable, a teaching tool. The man who was forgiven in the parable was not a saved man headed for Heaven. The penalty for his debt had been paid, and forgiven that is true, but not by anything he did. This shows us that many will have their dept paid by Jesus but not accept that payment and get eternally saved. Jesus paid the sin dept for everyone. The man was glad to hear that his debt was paid but that did not make him equal to a Christian who is justified. Many people in many churches are thankful for Jeus but not saved. He proved that he hadn't embraced his paid debt by his lack of love for others. In fact the story says he went right out to the person that owed hin money, showing no change of heart at all. Loving others is a theme through the entire NT. No, when looked at with a little logic Matthew 18 does not refute OSAS.

I will re-read ascends post later and address any scripture he didn't. We always address the arguments you present, it does not seem to go both ways though.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Look at Heb 10:14. "perfected" is in the Greek perfect tense showing the enduring qualities of saving faith. The adverbial phrase "for ever" is a dramatic emphasis. "Sanctified" is in the present tense showing a continuous action.

Here, your conditional process of blending justification and sanctification into salvation is simply demolished. How can one's destiny be certain (for ever) while stumbling in sin?

Meanwhile, correct biblical theology that keeps justification and sanctification distinct explains it nicely. Perfected forever belongs to justification. Being presently sanctified belongs to - - - sanctification

Over and over, blending is shown wrong.
Over and over, distinction is shown right.

I bet you cannot respond without running to another verse or using denominational rhetoric.
Lloyd

 

[mman]

Originally posted by ascund:

When you sin willfully, you will be judged as the foolish believer in 1 Cor 3:11-15 who LOST EVERYTHING but was

YET STILL SAVED!

Yes, the worker was saved but his work was burned up. What was the building that was burned up? I Cor 3:9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.

If you look at the context, you will see that people are the "building" and that just because one in converted doesn't mean they won't be lost (burned up). This passage teaches against OSAS.

Verse 18 also states, "Let no one deceive himself. If anyone among you thinks that he is wise in this age, let him become a fool that he may become wise."

You, no doubt are wise in your own eyes, belittling others often, making statements such as "You need remedial instruction".

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:
God’s word makes it clear that eternal life is dependent upon our continued faithfulness (Col 1:20-23).

The “if” clause modifies the presentation of the believer as holy, unblameable, and unreproveable. It has nothing to do with salvation. It is terrible exegesis to slice up a passage and pick and choose only what you want.</font>[/QUOTE]Col 1:22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister.

OK, if you don't continue in the faith you will not be presented "holy, blameless, and above reproach". That means you are unholy, to be blamed, and reproached.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:
Galatians 5:4, a child of God can fall from grace. You cannot fall from grace if you were never covered by grace.

This verse is a terminology pitfall. Your view wants you to think that falling from grace is a security issue. But Paul has just spent an entire letter contrasting justification by law versus justification by grace. His point is that anyone who now seeks to be justified by good works has fallen away from justification by God’s grace given freely to all through Jesus Christ.

The issue is not whether or not one is secure in Christ. The issue deals with the method of salvation, law or grace, which will you choose? All one has to do is look at the verse that follows this passage in order to stay clear of this terminology pitfall.

For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. (5:5).</font>[/QUOTE]No, his point was that anyone who is covered by grace under the new law and seeks to be justified under the old law has fallen from grace. You cannot fall from a position that you were never in. This verse clearly teaches that one can fall from grace.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by mman:
Christ is the author of eternal salvation unto all those who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9).

Big Wrong. This obedience is simple passive faith in Jesus; not active human obedience (John 6:28-29; 1 John 3:23; 5:4-5).</font>[/QUOTE]What, I list a verse and you say "Big Wrong". You did not like the conclusion that you got when you read it? You then attempt to say this verse doesn't really mean what it says, it really means something else, let me explain to you.

Heb 5:8 Although he was a son, he learned obedience through what he suffered. 9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him.

Jesus learned obedience and is the source of eternal salvation to those who obey him.

You want it to say, Jesus learned simple passive faith and he is the source of eternal salvation to those who have simple passive faith?

I Challenge you to find one translation that remotely supports your false claim for this verse. YOU CANNOT. The word is OBEY, no matter what you claim.

ENOUGH! You make the same mistake over and over. You confuse justification with sanctification at every turn. While scripture denounces human obedience (Rom 3:19) - you make it the central pillar of your system of death.

How can you so willfully cut out so much Bible? Have you never considered human depravity?

Lloyd

Of course that is enough. If I were you, I would not want to address John 15, Rom 11, I Cor 15, II Pet 2, or James 5(from an earlier post), or any conditional statement.

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by mman:
Yes, the worker was saved but his work was burned up. ... If you look at the context, you will see that people are the "building" and that just because one in converted doesn't mean they won't be lost (burned up). This passage teaches against OSAS.

Interesting. You said "YES" and "NO" in successives sentences. Very clever!

So, if the vain believer's works are burned up but he is yet saved, then is is lost???? This would be funny if it were not so serious!

What, I list a verse and you say "Big Wrong". You did not like the conclusion that you got when you read it? You then attempt to say this verse doesn't really mean what it says, it really means something else, let me explain to you.

I didn't like it because their is biblical proof to show that when a human asked Jesus a question of works, He converted the human-based self-centered question into a Christ-centered response.

You fail to note this in the context. Did you even turn to the John 6:28-29; 1 John 3:23; 5:4-5 references? It is folly to force Christ's response into your human centered system.

Lloyd
P.S. I handled James 5 at least twice before. It is a simple matter once you keep justification distinct from sanctification.

P.S.S. By the way - you failed to respond to Heb 10:14. It is a one verse wrecking crew to your conditional process human-centered system of salvation. Try a commentary without running to other verses and denominational rhetoric as a smoke screen.

 

[bmerr]

Lloyd,

bmerr here. The 1 Cor 3 passage simply puts the work of the Christian minister into perspective. I will agree with you that, when looked at in isolation, 1 Cor 3:15 does seem to indicate that a Christian's works may be burned up at the Judgement, while he himself is saved. If all we had was verse 15, that would be the logical conclusion.

But verse 15 is not alone. This all goes back to the strife Paul spoke of in chapter 1, the Corinthians' aligning and identifying of themselves with different preachers who had ministered unto them, instead of enjoying unity in Christ.

In chapter 3, Paul puts the work that he and Apollos had done with the Corinthians into its' proper perspective. In verse 5, Paul asks the question,

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed..."

Believed in whom? In Christ! But the Corinthians were carnal...

Paul goes on in verse 6, "I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase. So then neither is he that planteth [Paul] anything, neither he that watereth [Apollos]; but God that giveth the increase."

Paul is trying to return the attention of the Corinthians to God, in Whom they have believed, without Whom, Paul and Apollos would have had nothing to preach.

Now in verses 8-15, Paul is specifically speaking of those who plant and water. The work Paul speaks of refers to the people that have been, and will be converted to Christ by the efforts of the planters and waterers.

8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.

9 For we [ministers] are labourers together with God: ye [converts] are God's husbandry, ye [converts] are God's building.

10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation [planted], and another buideth thereon [watereth]. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon [watereth].

11 For other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones [faithful converts], wood, hay, stubble [unfaithful converts];

13 Every man's [planter or waterer] work [converts] shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

14 If any man's [minister's] work [converts] abide which he hath built thereupon, he [the minister] shall receive a reward.

15 If any man's [minister's] work [converts] shall be burned, he [the minister] shall suffer loss: but he himself [the minister] shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

For the sake of brevity (a little late for that, huh?), I'll provide a list of verses that illustrate the idea of individual Christians being the materials, the building, the work, etc.

Acts 20:32; Col 2:7; 1 Pet 2:5; Eph 2:19-20, 22; Heb 3:6; 1 Cor 9:1; Phil 2:16-17; 1 Thes 3:5; 1 Cor 3:9. There may be more, but this is what I've got.

Concerning John 6:28-29, to believe on Christ is a work of obedience that man must do. John 8:24 shows the neccessity of it. None of the verses you cited deny or negate the command to be baptized for the remission of sins.

There is nothing "human-centered" about obedience to the commandments of God. The human-centered thing to do would be to search for a way to gain Heaven while avoiding God's instructions for attaining it, like teaching salvation by "faith only", or "pray the sinner's prayer".

Part of what sanctifies us is the fact that we turn from rebellion against God, to obedience to Him. It is the obedient faith that both justifies and sanctifies at the same time. As long as one continues in obedient faith, he remains both justified and sanctified.

But if one turns from obedience, he turns from that which justifies and sanctifies. That's why Paul kept under his body, and kept it under subjection: lest that by any means, when he had preached to others, he himself might be a castaway (1 Cor 9:27). Paul was not concerned about rewards as much as his own soul.

Heb 10:14 is not the "wrecking crew" you think it is. In fact, it supports what I've already said. Those who are sanctified are those who are walking in obedient faith with Christ. Those who abide in Him continually benefit from His once-for-all offering for sin.

If we continue on in Heb 10, we will learn that he that sins willfully after he has been sanctifed by the sacrifice of Christ, can only have a "...certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (10:27).

We can all read the following verses for ourselves.

If we skip down to 10:36-39, we find,

36 For ye have need of patience, [why, Paul?] that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them which draw back unto perdition; but of them which believe to the saving of the soul.

Chapter 11 goes on to give numerous examples of the kind of faith that is pleasing to God. We see over, and over again, descriptions of obedient faith.

Okay, there's my attempt at commentary on Heb 10:14. How'd I do?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Doubting Thomas]

bmerr:
Heb 10:14 is not the "wrecking crew" you think it is. In fact, it supports what I've already said. Those who are sanctified are those who are walking in obedient faith with Christ. Those who abide in Him continually benefit from His once-for-all offering for sin.

Exactly. The context contrasts the repeated animal sacrifices which weren't efficacious to the one, for-all-time ("forever") sacrifice of Christ which is complete and efficacious...but only for those who "are being sanctified" (present tense).

If we continue on in Heb 10, we will learn that he that sins willfully after he has been sanctifed by the sacrifice of Christ, can only have a "...certain fearful looking for of judgment, and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries (10:27).

Right again. For those who sin willfully after at one time being sanctified "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sin" (v. 27) as they have "counted the blood of the covenant that sanctified [them] an unclean thing" and have "trampled the Son of God underfoot" (v. 29).

We can all read the following verses for ourselves.

If we skip down to 10:36-39, we find,

36 For ye have need of patience, [why, Paul?] that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

38 Now the just shall live by faith; but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them which draw back unto perdition; but of them which believe to the saving of the soul.

Chapter 11 goes on to give numerous examples of the kind of faith that is pleasing to God. We see over, and over again, descriptions of obedient faith.

Okay, there's my attempt at commentary on Heb 10:14. How'd I do?

In Christ,

bmerr

I think you were right on the money and prove that "context rules". Scriptures interpreted correctly put to rest the heretical and nonsensical notion that one is ultimately and finally saved simply because of a one time occurance in one's life of a "passive faith".

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by bmerr:
How'd I do?

Actually - quite well. You've managed to present your position using Bible and avoided the nasty diatribes. This is an exchange between theological opponents. Some of your remarks actually brought a grin to my face ( I was jealous that I didn't say it first ).

Originally posted by bmerr:
The 1 Cor 3 passage simply puts the work of the Christian minister into perspective.

Now in verses 8-15, Paul is specifically speaking of those who plant and water. The work Paul speaks of refers to the people that have been, and will be converted to Christ by the efforts of the planters and waterers.

This was a great use of context on your part. Those who embrace your theology seldom rise to this level. Congrats! However, the context begins in 3:1 where Paul is emphasizing the difference between the spiritually mature and spirutual babes. Why? Because they fuss over who baptised them.

Paul's illustration shows that neither minister is to be set above one another. Verse 10 is the transition verse as Paul changes pronouns from "I/we" to "every man/no man/any man" to "you" in verse 16.

Paul ultimately wants to show them the importance of good works on the foundation of Jesus Christ. This belongs to sanctification. I wholeheartedly endorse good works - but for sanctification.

Originally posted by bmerr:
There is nothing "human-centered" about obedience to the commandments of God. The human-centered thing to do would be to search for a way to gain Heaven while avoiding God's instructions for attaining it, like teaching salvation by "faith only", or "pray the sinner's prayer".

Classy shot! I like it. This and the next depend together on depravity.

Originally posted by bmerr:
Heb 10:14 is not the "wrecking crew" you think it is. In fact, it supports what I've already said. Those who are sanctified are those who are walking in obedient faith with Christ. Those who abide in Him continually benefit from His once-for-all offering for sin.

Here, you view this as if a human if faithful and perfect in obeying God's commandments.

I only can say that you do not appreciate the depths of human depravity. Even if a person obeys God's command in baptism, can they do it without sin? God's Word says "NO." The best of our righteous deeds are but filthy rags to God (Isa 64:6). In our best of states, we are nothing but vanity (Psa 39:5).

Toplady writes

The most enlightened believer in the world knows not the utmost of his natural depravation, nor is able to fathom that inward abyss of iniquity which is perpetually throwing up mire and dirt; and which, like a spring of poison at the bottom of a well, infects and discolors the whole mass.

Augustus Toplady, “A Short Essay on Original Sin," in The Complete Works of Augustus Toplady (1794; reprinted by Sprinkle Publications, 1987), 409-416; http://homepage.mac.com/shanerosenthal/reformationink/atoriginalsin.htm.

The only obedience acceptable to God is Christ's perfect life and obedience. It is the height of human-centered folly to insist that you totally depend on Christ while you work to obey God's commands - for justification.

If you would say the same things - for sanctification we would be in total agreement.

So the Heb 10:14 passage is not a walk that can be pleasing to God. In light of human depravity, it is a walk in lesser or greater degrees of sinfulness, rebellion and apostacy.

As justification does not mix with sanctification, so also grace does not mix with works (Rom 11:6). If salvation is by works, then it isn’t by grace. This contrast of justification/sanctification and grace/works is recast in our exchanges via a terminology shift; namely, a Christ-centered system does not mix with a human-centered system. If justification depends on human activity: (1) faith is voided, (2) God’s promises are nullified, and (3) the Cross is canceled (Rom 4:14; I Cor 1:17c).

Good post considering where you are coming from!
Oh to have your eyes behold our sin and Christ's righteousness!
Lloyd

 

[bmerr]

Lloyd,

bmerr here. A full reply will have to wait for tomorrow (bedtime here). I can't say good-night before smilingly complimenting you on your "left-handed compliments"!

As I've said before, I really don't think we're all that far apart on several issues. Original sin and total depravity sound a lot like Calvinism, though. You're not going there, are you?

We'll talk about all that later, I'm sure. Good night, my friend.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[ascund]

Hey bmerr

Original sin and total depravity sound a lot like Calvinism, though. You're not going there, are you?

All three major theological views have an opinion on The Fall and humanity's resulting state. Depravity can have three meanings.

Calvinism: Depravity has left everyone totally dead spiritually. There is no possible free will response to God. God must regenerate before anything spiritual happens. We are pleasing to God only because He arbitrarily choose us.

Free Grace: Depravity has seriously hampered us, yet we are able to respond to God's wooing. We are pleasing to God only and solely through Jesus Christ. This is me.

Arminianism: Depravity has not hurt us; we are well! We can satisfy God through our own good works (in total or in part). This is you.

The three are often put side by side as: dead/sick/well.

As a Free Grace theologian, my view of depravity is closer to Calvinism than Arminianism. However, the balance between God's sovereignty and human free will is maintained.

Election is particular in that God elected Jesus Christ, the Last Adam, to be the center of His plan of redemption. Election is universal in that all who freely will may enter into Jesus.

Once saved, we are still depraved. Luther's dictum simul justus et peccator (simultaneously just and a sinner) still holds.

Here is Heb 10:14 again. I, as a believer in Jesus, am declared to be just by God's forensic declaration. He has imputed Christ's righteousness to me so that in His heavenly court I stand "perfected for ever" on the basis of Christ's EXTERNAL righteousness. Meanwhile, as a sinner saved by grace, I still sin - continuously. In the best of my states I am yet vanity and filthy rags. My process of sanctification into the image of Christ is nowhere close to perfection. I'm at the opposite end of the scale on top of imperfection.

So while God the Judge views me as "perfected forever," God my Father sees my many shortcomings. I will be rewarded for the good things I do through the guidance of God's Spirit. The bad things are simply burned in the flames of judgment (1 Cor 3:11-15).

I just got to work (6:00). Later.
Lloyd, the Free Grace Theologian.

 

[Briguy]

bmerr and DT, How much obedience is needed to obtain eternal life? That is the question I ask that never gets answered. If my faith starts to fad because of some horrible event in my life or just because I am fooled by Satan for a while at one point down the slide of faith do I become un-saved? When does the mighty Holy Spirit leave me?

Picture a real kids slide for a moment. I begin to slide down as my faith weakens. At what point to I lose my salvation? Is it when I am part way down and obeying God at 50% effiency?, or farther at 30% effiency?, certainly I must be "lost" by the time I am only obeying God at 10%?? What if I stop my slide down right at the bottom and cling on and obey God just 1% of my life? Am I Ok at 1% but the one who falls off the slide and has no obedience is Lost?? Tell me how much obedience is enough?? We all have to know this so we know we are saved because according to 1 John 5 we can KNOW we have eternal life. Ok, lets say it is your child sliding down a slide and you notice after he starts down the slide there is a pool of acid at the bottom. You would first try to get your sons attention by whatever menas possible. If that didn't work you would just put your hands over your face and let your child plunge into the acid, right? WRONG, you would dive into the acid yourself and catch your son. You would save him even if he chose to slide down the slide against your command not to. You know what?? I believe with all my heart God would do the same for His children. Once a child always a child. Do you know what else? God did dive into the acid, the acid of the cross and payed a price so I would not also have slide into the acid. Please take some time to picture that scene in your head. First with you and one of your children (or a loved one if you have no children) then with you as the child and God as the father. What would you do? What would God do? What has God already done?

More later,
In Christ, whose blood is the anchor of my soul,
Brian

[ August 23, 2005, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

[ascund]

Greetings Briguy

Originally posted by Briguy:
How much obedience is needed to obtain eternal life? That is the question I ask that never gets answered.

Great question. They must run for they cannot answer it. It reveals their human-centered rebellion against dependence on Christ.

If any part of redemption depends on human obedience, then (1) faith becomes a work, (2) God’s promises are voided, and (3) the Cross is nullified (Rom 4:14; 1 Cor 1:17c).

Great question!
I wonder what obsfucation technique will be used!
Lloyd

 

[Frank]

Briguy:

God does not require man to be FLAWLESS. He requires him to be FAITHFUL. Cf. Zacharias and Elizabeth. They were both walking in ALL the commandments of the Lord BLAMELESS.
In matters of faith, we are to render complete obedience. John 12:42-48,John 15:14;14;15.

Faithful people sin. I John 1:7. Those who know right from wrong sin. Romans 3:23. I will ask you a question: Which command of Christ may you disobey and get to heaven? How do you know?

PERFECTION is not possible. If so, we would not need the blood of Christ. However, we must be faithful unto death. Rev. 2;10; 22;12-14, II Tim. 4:6-8.

 

[Doubting Thomas]

Frank,

Good answer.

Those who subscribe to antinomianism want those of us who take the historical biblical view (ie faith without works is dead) to quantify the amount of obedience necessary or conversely how much sin one can get away with and still be saved. It seems that they are the ones that can't help but think in legalistic
terms. Christ however says if we love Him we will obey Him and keep His commandments (plural) (John 14:15,21; 15:10). Period. And James says the kingdom is for those who love God (James 2:5). And Hebrews says that He is author of eternal salvation for those who obey Him (Heb 5:9). And Peter says we must be diligent to add virtue, knowledge, self-control, perserverance, godliness, brotherly kindness, and love to our faith so that we can make our election sure, never stumble, and have an entrance supplied into the everlasting kingdom (2 Peter 1:5-11). And John says if one claims he loves Him and doesn't keep His commandments (plural) then he is a liar and the truth is not in Him (1 John 2:3-4) and that we know we are indeed in Him if we keep His word (v.5).

In otherwords, it's about loving obedience not some legalistically quantified checklist. Christ demands ALL. When we do sin, we must confess and repent so Christ can cleanse us of all unrighteousness (1 John 1:9) as He has promised. However, there is no hope of eternal salvation held out in the Scriptures for those who may have once had a "passive faith" yet persistently and unrepentantly refuse to walk in obedience to Christ. So instead of legalistically asking "How much sin can I get away with? Have I 'lost my salvation' yet?" one needs to continually confess and repent and resume walking in obedience to Christ, working out one's salvation in fear and trembling. We are indeed saved by God's grace but not if we stubbornly continue to resist Him.