"Once saved, always saved"--Fact or Fiction?

[bmerr]

Briguy,

bmerr here. I used to find myself trying to "get rid of proof" that showed my beliefs to be false, too. I think it's called "cognitive dissonance". The evidence contradicts an established belief. Evolutionists run into it all the time.

Brian, there are only two ways to deal with cognitive dissonance:

1. abandon the evidence (get rid of it) in favor of the established belief.

2. abandon the established belief in favor of the evidence.

Either way, the evidence is still there. It's just a matter of how we deal with it. For my part, I abandoned some of the beliefs I had held quite dearly. It cost me some friends, too, but it's been worth it.

Let the Bible say what it says. Understand the not-so-clear parts in light of the clear ones. It all fits together quite nicely.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[steaver]

Briguy,

bmerr here. I used to find myself trying to "get rid of proof" that showed my beliefs to be false, too. I think it's called "cognitive dissonance". The evidence contradicts an established belief. Evolutionists run into it all the time.

Brian, there are only two ways to deal with cognitive dissonance:

1. abandon the evidence (get rid of it) in favor of the established belief.

2. abandon the established belief in favor of the evidence.

Either way, the evidence is still there. It's just a matter of how we deal with it. For my part, I abandoned some of the beliefs I had held quite dearly. It cost me some friends, too, but it's been worth it.

Let the Bible say what it says. Understand the not-so-clear parts in light of the clear ones. It all fits together quite nicely.

In Christ,

bmerr

Hi bmerr, this can be proclaimed be either camp. It adds nothing to who is right and who is wrong.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Hi mman, I know we are all very busy but please address my post to you when you find the time. Thanks!

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Good stuff Briguy!

The fact of the matter is that eternal life is just that, eternal. Once you are given it you have it forever (that is why it is called eternal, not really a mind teaser at all wouldn't you say?)

So since the Scriptures are cut and dried concerning born again, one must approach all other "questionable" passages while fully understanding that a loss of eternal life cannot be in focus or an option.

Every single passage used against OSAS will have numerious comentaries of well renowned scholars having two or three different opinions of what the passage is teaching.

Those who teach a loss of salvation must be rejected out right because the gift of God is clearly taught as free and irrevocable. One can study and choose from those that are left.

You will notice that every passage that is used against OSAS will beg for interpretation, while passages that actually say salvation, everlasting life, eternal life, born of God, born again, living water or Holy Spirit and the like will be absolute with only one option for the interpretation or needing no interpretation at all, it will simply say what it says and to the very point.

Precept must be upon precept and the word of truth must be rightly divided. The foundation must begin with born again, for without the Spirit one cannot understand the Word of God. One passage cannot contradict another.

Keep up the good fight briguy!

God Bless!

 

[webdog]

John 10:28 in the greek is powerful: "kagw didwmi autoiv zwhn aiwnion, kai ou mh apolwntai eiv ton aiwna..."
Where we translate it in english "I give unto them eternal life, and they will never perish..." we fail to recognize the double negative. It probably read more like this in the greek "I give them life without end, and they will never perish, forever (or no, not ever)...". It's powerful because Jesus is saying this.

 

[steaver]

Amen webdog! "Never" another one of those words concerning the born again that cannot be misconstrued in any way shape or form.

God Bless!

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Many osas people use John 10:28 as 'evidence' or 'proof' for security salvation.

But, we have to read by context, what the whole passage is talking about. I agree with John 10:28, it is beautiful and promise for us, Christ have His power to secure us from being take away from anyone include Satan.

In the context, Christ tells us, He promises us if we hear(read) His voice(God's Word), and we FOLLOW Christ, He would secure or guard us while following Christ. - John 10:27-28. OR.... if we do not follow Christ, He would not guard us. Obivously, it is conditional.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Several of you are terribly guilty of thrusting your theology upon God's Word rather than doing an honest study to find out what God is really says. Let’s discuss what you can’t see in John 10:28. Translations fail to bring out the force of the double negative with subjunctive.

You fail to mention ou me apolontai (they shall never perish). This phrase uses a double negative and the aorist subjunctive which means that when they are used together it is the most emphatic denial that the Greek can use.

First, the double negative ou me is used to highlight or underscore the impossibility of the stated action occurring.

“The combination of the double negative occurs 96 times. With the light that the papyri have thrown upon this doubling of the negatives we can now say unreservedly that the negatives were doubled for the purpose of stating denials or prohibitions emphatically. … people used the doubling of negatives for making categorical and emphatic denials,” Dana & Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek NT (Toronto, 1927), 266-67

The double negative stresses the total absence of what it negates.

Second, while the simple present mood denotes reality the simple subjunctive mood denotes a step away from reality into probability. While the negative of the present denies reality, the negative of the subjunctive denies even a step away from reality. Together, the double negative with the aorist subjunctive has the force of a categorical and emphatic denial. Wallace says that ou me with the subjunctive “rules out even the idea as being a possibility.” Wallace, Beyond the Basics, 468.

The Greek language is doing everything possible to make a categorical timeless denial that one can get out of Jesus’ hand. Not only can one never again perish, you can’t even think about it! How much clearer does it have to be!!

If you look at the total context, you’ll not be deceived by partial explanations. Greek knowledge can really help differentiate between right and wrong – if one’s personal dogma does not interfere.

Lloyd

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Again, John 10:28 is a beautiful verse and promise to us. Christ have power to hold our salvation, no one can take us away from his hand, which He gives us eternal life and shall never go hell.

BUT, Christ promises us, when we listen God's Word, obey them, and follow God's Word long as Christ guards us all the way till we die or Christ comes.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by DeafPosttrib:
BUT, Christ promises us, when we listen God's Word, obey them, and follow God's Word long as Christ guards us all the way till we die or Christ comes.

If Christ guards us all the way till we die or Christ comes,
then we will listen to God's Word, obey them, and follow God's Word

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Ed,

Your comment of John 10:27-29 is opposite as what Christ actual saying.

Jesus Christ is our shephard, He always take care of us as He is our guard. We are His sheep. Sheep is easily astray away and become lost, that why the shepherd have to watch them and guard them. If a sheep does not obey shepherd, sheep can easily astray away and lost.

Christ's promise to us CANNOT lie, when we listen and obey his words, He always ready to guard us all the way to the end.

Or, if we do not obey his word, and not follow his word, we can easy astray away and lost. Cannot blame Christ for fail to care or guard us, We are responsible to listen and obey God's Word long as we are endure all the way to the end - Matt. 10:22; and Matt. 24:13.

IN Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[Briguy]

DPT, Hi and thanks for joining in. Your post brings up another whole problem. You say we must obey His word and follow His word or we will be lost. Can any one fully follow and obey God's word? I think you would admit the answer is no. So, as I said way back in the thread, when does Jesus turn us back?? A little disobedience, a lot of disobedience? What type of disobedience? Breaking a commandment? not loving others? denying Christ?? (carefull Peter, the ROCK, did this 3 times) Do you see where I am going. The Bible makes it clear that God/Jesus expects 100% obedience to obtain salvation. No lack of anything and no flaws that is what it takes. I fall short of this, way short, but I have a savior that is perfect, is without spot and blemish and He took my place and made me perfectly clean forever by His blood, my sin will never again stain my soul and my FLESH will never again be how God views me. He sees me white as snow and perfect because I have been washed clean by His very own Son. I am perfect!!!! and worthy of Heaven but not by my obedience because it will fail every time but because I have the righteousness of Christ. When the Bible says Be Holy as I am Holy, do you think that is saying in our actions?? People really think that is the case but that is just not true. This statement is saying that we can put on the Holiness of Christ. The born again person is Holy because Christ is Holy not because they strive to do good and not sin. Hope that at least clarifies my/our position.

Steaver and ascund, Great posts. stay close to this thread, OSAS needs you!!

In Christ who holds me by His strength,
Brian

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by bmerr:
Bob,

bmerr here. Sounds pretty clear to me. The angels will gather out of the kingdom (the church) all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessmess. One cannot be in the church unless he is saved (Acts 2:47).

The whole "furnace of fire" thing doesn't sound like much fun, but that's what seems to await those who obey the gospel, but later turn away.

The righteous (faithful, not perfect) will shine forth as the sun, reigning in glory with Christ. Anyone got ears to hear?

Yep - that is what I find in the text as well.

Right on.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ashleigh]

Ya'll I knosw that I am young (13)but I know what I have been taught. My dads a pastor and he and all the other pastors have taught me that once you are saved YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED!

Ashleigh (j_barner2000's daughter)

 

[Ashleigh]

opps know

 

[steaver]

Jesus Christ is our shephard, He always take care of us as He is our guard. We are His sheep. Sheep is easily astray away and become lost, that why the shepherd have to watch them and guard them. If a sheep does not obey shepherd, sheep can easily astray away and lost.

You are making two different claims here. First you say..."Sheep is easily astray away and become lost, that why the shepherd have to watch them and guard them."

Then you say..."If a sheep does not obey shepherd, sheep can easily astray away and lost."

The first statement you have the responsibility asigned to the shepherd. This of course is the correct analogy.

The second you have the sheep disobeying and becoming lost EVEN though the GOOD SHEPHERD is watching them and guarding them!

Are you saying that Jesus is not capeable of guarding and watching over His sheep?

Why does the shepherd leave the 99 and go after the One that has strayed?

Did you ever here of a shepherd who could not bring back a sheep that had strayed? What would he say? "Well I tried to reason with the silly sheep but it wouldn't return home so good riddens I guess".

No, the sheep has no choice but to return to the flock. Sheep go astray not because they don't like the shepherd or the flock but just because they are so imperfect. Any sheep would be overwhelmed with joy to see the Good Shepherd and the flock. This is why Jesus keeps us herded in. This is why Jesus has the sole responsibility for keeping us saved!

" My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me :" (John 10:27)

They may stray, but they will always hear Jesus' voice and follow Him when He calls.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Ya'll I knosw that I am young (13)but I know what I have been taught. My dads a pastor and he and all the other pastors have taught me that once you are saved YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED!

God Bless you Ashliegh! One day you will study the scriptures as an adult and will see that you were taught Right On!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Ashleigh:
Ya'll I knosw that I am young (13)but I know what I have been taught. My dads a pastor and he and all the other pastors have taught me that once you are saved YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED!

Ashleigh (j_barner2000's daughter)

You are correct.

A lot of people do teach that!

I am not one of those - but I do know many people that do.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

Jesus says:
Mat 24:13 (KJV1611 Edition):

But he that shall endure vnto the end,
the same shall be saued.

But it is also true:

He that has been saved shall endure unto the end.

DeafPosttrib speaking of John 10:27-29 says:

"BUT, Christ promises us, when we listen God's
Word, obey them,
and follow God's Word long as Christ
guards us all the way till we die or Christ comes."

Ed says from his knowledge of our blessed Lord and
Savior Messiah Yeshua:

If Christ guards us all the way till we die
or Christ comes,
then we will listen to God's Word, obey them,
and follow God's Word.

Both these sayings of Jesus are true.
Both additional sayings of Jesus are true.
Both additional sayings are examples of:
If a person has been saved by Jesus, then they
stay saved by Jesus. (Summary: Once saved,
always saved /OSAS/.)

 

[spirit1st]

I think it all comes down to be born again .A new spiritual being ,made just like our LORD JESUS CHRIST .Many are called ,few choosen.I was dead 2 times.Once before the NEW birth ,once after.I went to church and knew the LORd from my youth,But had not accepted HIM as LORd.I thought I was saved as so many do.Yet I had not experianced a new birth .But thinking I could accept it by faith .Which ,We must be BORN OF GOD.The 1st time I died ,I fell into darkness ,falling fast in this darkness ,knowing I was going to await judgement ,Full of fear.The next time I had a new birth experiance.This time I went to NEW JERUSALEM ,far from earth in space .I saw the city ,but did not enter in .I could have.I ask my LORD JESUS CHRIST ,could I return for tend to my kids and wife.HE said yes.I came back to my flesh and entered in .Death to the child of GOD ,is a blessing.But without the new birth is fearfull .The city I saw,is moving very fast toward the earth.I saw it in 1976.It should be here soon to recieve the LORDS BODY.We are spirits 1st .This part of us is who the LORD died for. This is the part of us that must be BORN OF GOD.If we have this birth.We have faith in our salvation forever more.1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Col 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him
not.
BECAUSE WE ARE SPIRITS LIKE OUR LORD.Nothing touches this new spirit.It is protected by the blood of OUR LORD FOREVER MORE.

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh:
Which child of GOD was taken from our LORDS HAND?NONE
HE KEEPS US forever.
1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith
It does not say ,some.it says they overcome.Because HE DID .We can not fail.impossable.
Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
1Jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Could the LORD lose a piece of HIS OWN BOdY?NO
Eph 1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Eph 1:23 Which is his body, the fullness of him that filleth all in all.

HERE WE ARE NOW!
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
JUST AS HE IS NOW.in our spirits if BORN OF GOD .
1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
If you believe the living WORD.No man on earth has the full truth,But HE has given us HIS HOLY SPIRIT that we could recieve all TRUTh on earth and in heaven ,it is ours if we ask the HOLY GHOST and do not follow other weak men .