"Once saved, always saved"--Fact or Fiction?

[Briguy]

mman said ""The anchor can hold. What if I cut the rope? What good is an anchor?""

Are you saying, "What good is Jesus if I struggle?"
"What good is Jesus if Satan fools me?"
"What good is Jesus if I get afraid and deny him?" (you know, like that Peter guy did - 3 times)
"What good is Jesus if my health fails and I blame God for a time?"
"What good is Jesus if I dis-obey Him?"

Those are the questions that we can associate with your "cut the rope" analogy. So you think that a perfect anchor would use an imperfect rope. Does Jesus provide the knife to cut the rope? That would be a trial right? When the ememy comes to cut the rope, Jesus would let the ememy right? (think deep to figure out this one)

mman, sorry if any of that was offensive I was trying to make you think on a deeper level. Your analogy of Jesus letting us cut the rope is so sad, it almost makes me well up just thinking about it. I picture myself rock climbing with my son and he slips and I grab the rope and hang on to it for dear life. He is hanging on the rope and will die a terrible death if I let go. He is my child and I love him and I will hold that rope. He says, "Dad, just let go, you can't hang on", but I hold on anyway. He gets angry and says, "stop being a hero and let go" - but I hold the rope anyway. Maybe he was really mad at me the day before, maybe even today he yelled at me for making him come rock climbing but yet I hold the rope whether he wants me to or not, Why? for he is my son, my child, a part of me. When we come to Christ, we become part of a body that Christ is the head of. We are a part of Christ in that way as well as a child of Christ, because we were born again in him. I would never let go of the rope. I would never throw my son a knife so he could cut the rope and if he had a knife of his own I would shake the rope until he dropped the knife (God does this in his own way). God would do nothing less then this for us, In fact He already gave us His son to die a cruel death, He would not let go of the rope and make His Sons death have less value. If the shed blood of Jesus doesn't save forever then it does not have the ultimate value that it could have. Well, I know that was a ramble, I hope it touched your heart, the heart that Christ made new forever.

mman, please deal with James as translated in the KJV and deal with the verses I used to show that he was not addressing just Christians. You just skipped that part of my post altogether. Also, don't you think that when James said, "if any of you lack wisdom" He may have been addressing the non-Christian jews. Isn't real wisdom to know Christ. Wisdom is not being smart, Wisdom biblically is knowing God. He may very well have been saying "to those of you who don't believe Jesus was the Messiah, ask God and he will show you". Remember these were not heathen non Christians, they were un-converted jews who knew about God, had a belief system about God, even served God the best they could for what they believed. It makes sense why James said those folks would lack wisdom, not belief, but wisdom of who Jesus was. It also makes sense why the KJV translators, 70 of them, would use the word "Convert" at the end of the chapter.

In Christian Love,
Brian

[ September 08, 2005, 09:04 AM: Message edited by: Briguy ]

 

[ccrobinson]

Briguy, that's a terrific analogy. I don't know if you touched anybody else's heart, and maybe it's because I have 3 sons of my own, but you touched my heart. Great analogy.

 

[webdog]

Briguy, excellent post! God gave up His only begotten Son and in Christ, we become sons of God. After sacrificing His perfect Son, there is no way He would allow the rest of His "sons" to take their own life!

 

[bmerr]

Briguy,

bmerr here. Have you ever considered the difference between being a "child" of God, and being a "son" of God?

It may be a question of semantics, but it seems to me that while a child may be the offspring of God, a son will demonstrate the character of God.

I've said before, that when a person obeys the gospel, that one is always and forever a child of God. As that one walks in the ways of God, and follows the example of Christ, he is a son of God.

But if that one turns from the paths of righteousness, and goes back to the ways of the world, while he remains a child, he is not a son, in that he does not reflect the character of his Father.

Jesus said he would never leave us. He did not say we could never leave Him. Demas did. We wouldn't say that Paul was fooled when he named Demas among the faithful in Col 4:14 and Philemon 24, would we? And yet, in his last letter to Timothy, we find that Demas had forsaken Paul, having loved this present world (2 Tim 4:10).

1 John 2:15 tells us that if any man (including Demas) loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. Demas had left Christ. Christ had not left Demas, nor did He chain Demas to Him so he couldn't leave.

God does not take away the free will of man. How can love be anything but a choice?

Just a thought.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[steaver]

bmerr here. Have you ever considered the difference between being a "child" of God, and being a "son" of God?

Why don't you show us the difference with scripture?

It may be a question of semantics, but it seems to me that while a child may be the offspring of God, a son will demonstrate the character of God.

Scripture please.

I've said before, that when a person obeys the gospel, that one is always and forever a child of God. As that one walks in the ways of God, and follows the example of Christ, he is a son of God.

Scripture please.

But if that one turns from the paths of righteousness, and goes back to the ways of the world, while he remains a child, he is not a son, in that he does not reflect the character of his Father.

Scripture please.

Jesus said he would never leave us. He did not say we could never leave Him. Demas did. We wouldn't say that Paul was fooled when he named Demas among the faithful in Col 4:14 and Philemon 24, would we? And yet, in his last letter to Timothy, we find that Demas had forsaken Paul, having loved this present world (2 Tim 4:10).

Did Paul say that he lost his eternal life?

1 John 2:15 tells us that if any man (including Demas) loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. Demas had left Christ. Christ had not left Demas, nor did He chain Demas to Him so he couldn't leave.

Does John tell us (including Demas) that these folks lost eternal life?

God Bless!

 

[Briguy]

HOWDY bmerr,

In keeping with my example from my last post, you are saying that if God was the man holding his son/child on the rope He would let go just because the son/child asked Him to, right? I believe that is what you are saying. I have noticed that I have used a couple tough analogies and those on your side of this debate won't answer what they would do? I believe God would hold the rope no matter what. I would hold the rope no matter what kind of child/son my son or daughter was. This daddy would hold that rope and I believe even more that my Father above would do the same.

Also, since mman hasn't commented on my comment on the anchor and the rope, the comment being that why would a perfect anchor have an imperfect rope tied to it. Maybe better said like this. Why would an unmovable, imperishable anchor have an easily broken rope tied to it. What would the creator of that anchor and rope be thinking, to make an anchor that is "sure and steadfast" and then tie a rope to it that can be broken?? Doesn't sound like a very wise creator to me.

In Christ,
Brian

 

[steaver]

Also, since mman hasn't commented on my comment on the anchor and the rope, the comment being that why would a perfect anchor have an imperfect rope tied to it. Maybe better said like this. Why would an unmovable, imperishable anchor have an easily broken rope tied to it. What would the creator of that anchor and rope be thinking, to make an anchor that is "sure and steadfast" and then tie a rope to it that can be broken?? Doesn't sound like a very wise creator to me.

In Christ,
Brian

Stop giving sound logical reasoning brother. You are confusing them!

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

Some have argued that the saints are as depraved and bound to slavery to sin as any others so that all the arguments in scripture for endurance and faithfulness are just so much hot air. But is the Word of God really endorsing the idea of the “Wicked witness of the righteous’ or the “unright righteous” or the “enslaved saints” doomed to sin and rebellion? Does it really allow us to be “Self-deceived until the day we die” living in slavery to sin?

Others argue that “failure to persevere means eternal life” for the saints.

Question: IS that merely deception on the part of some proponents of “OSAS”? And in that case “should” we allow ourselves to “be deceived”??

1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

God is not calling us “TO BE” deceived on this point – but rather “NOT to be DECEIVED”.

See?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
heaven.

Rom 8
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

James 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a
pure heart fervently:

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.


Romans 2

Notice the "text" perhaps for the first time – as it speaks about our IMPARTIAL God whose process of judging in the matter of salvation (and IN the context of the call to repentance (Rom 2:4)) "results" in some saved and some lost JUST as He describes IN Romans 2...

Rom 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Let "the text" speak.

#1. Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.

This is devastating to Calvinism.

#3. Romans 3 is IN the GOSPEL CONTEXT of the kindness and goodness of God - and the call to repentance.

This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.

#4. Paul declares that the JUDGMENT is "according to my gospel". The judgment he speaks of is part of the Gospe.

#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.

#6. The DEEDS mentioned are the same FRUITs of MAtt 7 that Christ shows as "determining" outcoming.

#7 The ENTIRE thing is said to occur in an impartial manner and is GUARANTEED to be impartial because GOD HIMSELF is impartial when it comes to salvation according to Rom 2:11

The "obvious" point in both Romans 2 and Matt 7 is that it is NOT a scenario where God "arbitrarily selects out from among the doomed a few to FAVOR".

Both texts are going out of their way to START within the context of the Gospel and to SHOW that in that context of the goodness of God as our Father - and the call to repentance and forgiveness - WE HAVE a judgment of "deeds" where some fail and some pass.

It is NOT the more "general" case of Romans 3 where ALL are condemned WITHOUT the need for a "future judgment" since ALL have sinned.

Why treat ALL in this way?

ANSWER: Because "God is not partial"??


How then does Calvinism accept this chapter?

ANSWER: It does not.
=======================================================================================================

Rom2:
12 for all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Interesting that there are two different systems – one to address those who HAVE scripture and one to address those who do not. But BOTH having the potential outcome of loss or salvation. To this point Paul presents BOTH failing cases AND successful cases.

Paul appears to be in harmony with Christ here as Christ said that those who knew there master's will and did it not receive many lashes but those that did not know the master's will and yet did deeds worthy of punishment - receive few

Luke 12:
47“and that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

Notice that Christ does not assume everyone goes to hell (both those who KNEW the Bible and those who did not) anymore than Paul would make such an absurd statement in Romans 2. Rather the chapter is in context with the call for repentance as noted at the start.

Romans2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Having shown us both the group that in the future obtain immortality and the group that in the future suffer the wrath after the future judgment of God - Paul now sums it up - the justification that is future will be for the doers and not for those who are proven to be merely hearers. The test is the same Matt 7 indicator “NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord – but he who DOES” for the good tree produces good fruit.

This is not a fact that Paul then goes on to deny in the rest of the book of Romans. Rather he continues to strongly endorse it (note particularly Romans 6). John McAarthur did an excellent series on this point - titled "the power over sin".

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Those who deny OSAS deny God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit.


GOD
God’s promises for the believer’s security are numerous. Consider the following incomplete list:
God promises us that we shall not perish (John 10:28-29).
God has already glorified the believer (Rom 8:29-30).
God will confirm every believer to the end (1 Cor 1:8).
We stand in the power of God (1 Cor 2:5).
God has established us in Christ (2 Cor 1:21-22).
God has given the earnest of His Spirit (2 Cor 5:5-7).
God has made us accepted (Eph 1:6).
God has quickened us together with Christ (Eph 2:5-6).
God began the good work in us and will continue to do it (Phil 1:6).
God has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance (Col 1:12-13).
God has delivered us into the Kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:12-13).
God has delivered us from the power of darkness (Col 1:13).
God has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13).
The Lord is faithful, Who shall establish you (1 Thes 5:23-24 & 2 Thes 3:3).
The Lord shall deliver me from every evil (2 Tim 4:18).
The Lord will preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom (2 Tim 4:18).
God reserves a place for us (1 Pet 1:4-5; Jude 1).
God is able to keep us from falling (Jude 24).
God will present us blameless before the presence of His glory (Jude 24).
God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet 1:3).
God will not let our feet be move [from a position of justification], he does not slumber . . . He shall preserve you [the believer] from all evil: He shall preserve thy soul (Psalm 121:3,7).
We shall not slide [from salvation] (Psalm 26:1).
We can know that we are saved (1 John 5:13).
God is faithful to deliver what He has promised (Heb 10:23).
This list makes pretty easy common-sense reading.

JESUS
1. As our HIGH PRIEST He paid for all sins and then SAT DOWN (Heb 1:3; 10:12) no more ever to standup to offer Himself as another sacrifice. This He did once for all time (Heb 10:10,14)

2. He PURCHASED us! The Bible shows that the Lord Jesus (2 Pet 2:1) purchased believers as a “purchased possession” (Acts 20:28; 1 Cor 6:20; 7:23; Eph 1:14; 2 Pet 2:1; Rev 5:9; 14:3–4). He bought them with the price (1 Cor 6:20, 7:23) of His holy and sinless blood (Acts 20:28), which is much more precious than silver or gold (1 Pet 1:18).
Who can steal something from God? Can the purchased possession undo God’s ownership?

3. He PURCHASED our righteousness! But scripture declares that at that solitary moment of saving faith: believers are immersed into Christ, His perfect obedience is credited to them and they are already declared to be perfect forever (Acts 20:32; 1 Cor 1:2, 6:11; Heb 10:14; Jude 1). Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us (1 Cor 5:7). He became our sin that we might become His righteousness (2 Cor 5:21). As a result righteousness is not only imputed to Jesus alone but also to all those who place their faith in Him (Rom 4:23-24).

4. He is our MEDIATOR (1 Tim 2:4-6, Heb 12:22-24). It is essential that the mediator be a neutral member able to represent both sides. Jesus’ qualifications go beyond a common destiny with mankind. Since the Virgin Mary is Jesus’ mother He qualifies as being 100% human. Since the Holy Spirit also prepared Him a body He qualifies as being 100% God. As 100% human He is able to represent mankind before God and ensure that God delivers on the seven contract clauses of the New Testament (see Chapter 3). As 100% deity He is able to represent God before mankind and ensure that believers are presented to God holy and blameless.

6. He is our SURETY in the New Covenant (Heb 7:22). When we fail, He pays for us. We can never fail!

7. He is our ADVOCATE (1 John 2:1). He negotiates with God for us!

8. He is our GOOD SHEPHERD (John 10:7-11, 14-26). He will not let us stray.

9. He is the FINISHER of our faith (Heb 12:2). Not only did Jesus provide the perfect example of obedience but He completes the faith of all those who trust Him.

10 He is our SUSTAINER. He eliminated the penalty of all sins. He will perfect, complete and finish the work of salvation that is begun passively by the sinner at the moment of faith in Jesus. But here, it is clear Jesus is the not only the Author (John 1:1-3) and Finisher of our faith, He is also the Sustainer of all Creation (Col 1:17).

11. Jesus NEVER – no never – leaves or forsakes His own (Heb 13:5). This verse uses the double negative to emphasize Jesus’ faithfulness to His own. Grammatically, the double negative ou me is used to highlight or underscore the impossibility of the stated action occurring.

12. Jesus is the Rock of our salvation.

13. Jesus is Eternal Life (John 3:16,36; 6:40,47; 17:3; 1 John 5:11-13), the Water of Life (John 4:13-14), and the Bread of Life (John 6:35-40, 51, 58; 11:26). If Eternal Security only meant conditional security why would God have allowed it to be used? It seems fitting to repeat the definition of eternal life here.

14. We are saved by Jesus’ life (Rom 5:8-10).

15. Jesus saves to the UTTERMOST (Heb 7:25) those who come to Him.


HOLY SPIRIT
God’s promise is not a temporary or conditional promise. The Bible teaches that the Spirit indwells believers forever (John 14:16-17). This promise of the Spirit is given to all believers (John 7:37-39, Rom 8:9).

The sealing by the Spirit should not be lightly overlooked or rationalized away. This sealing is (1) a finished transaction (Jer 32:9-10; John 17:4; 19:30). (2) sign of ownership (Jer 32:11-12; Eph 1:13-14; 2 Tim 2:19), (3) security (Ester 8:8; Dan 6:17; Eph 4:30).

The Spirit brooded over the waters of creation. He woos sinners to Jesus (John 16:13). He immerses believing sinners into Christ (1 Cor 12:13). He quickens (John 6:63) and justifies them (1 Cor 6:11, 1 Tim 3:16). He is involved in their daily sanctification (1 Cor 6:11, 2 Thes 2:13, 1 Pet 1:2) as He leads them (Gal 5:18) to produce spiritual fruit (Gal 5:20-22) from the His generous gifts (1 Cor 12:11). Believing sinners have access to God through Him (Eph 2:18) as they are built into an habitation suitable for God (Eph 2:22). Finally, the Spirit is an ever present testimony to the fact that believing sinners are the children of God (Rom 8:16).
The Spirit is personally involved in all aspects of redemption. His ministries will ensure that believers are presented holy and blameless to God. Heaven, thus, is a prepared place for a prepared people.

Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Bob

How many times will you cut and paste the same message? Rom 2 is in a context that acknowledges the right to live and be judged under the law. However, any self-righteous tact will lead to condemnation (Rom 3:19).

Quotes out of context - your forte.
Lloyd

 

[BobRyan]

UNNANSWERED points are UNNANSWERED still LLoyd.

Why is it that you find this concept so illusive?

I fail to see how your continual dodging and ducking the quotes given - "becomes a reason" not to highlight those texts of scripture that debunk your ideas!

Review the points made - and even numbered for you to "dodge" repeatedly.

Let "the text" speak.

#1. Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.

This is devastating to Calvinism.

#3. Romans 3 is IN the GOSPEL CONTEXT of the kindness and goodness of God - and the call to repentance.

This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.

#4. Paul declares that the JUDGMENT is "according to my gospel". The judgment he speaks of is part of the Gospe.

#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.

#6. The DEEDS mentioned are the same FRUITs of MAtt 7 that Christ shows as "determining" outcoming.

#7 The ENTIRE thing is said to occur in an impartial manner and is GUARANTEED to be impartial because GOD HIMSELF is impartial when it comes to salvation according to Rom 2:11

The "obvious" point in both Romans 2 and Matt 7 is that it is NOT a scenario where God "arbitrarily selects out from among the doomed a few to FAVOR".

Both texts are going out of their way to START within the context of the Gospel and to SHOW that in that context of the goodness of God as our Father - and the call to repentance and forgiveness - WE HAVE a judgment of "deeds" where some fail and some pass.

It is NOT the more "general" case of Romans 3 where ALL are condemned WITHOUT the need for a "future judgment" since ALL have sinned.

Why treat ALL in this way?

ANSWER: Because "God is not partial"??


How then does Calvinism accept this chapter?

ANSWER: It does not.

 

[ascund]

Hey Bob

Already proven you wrong. Why hang on to it?

This passage falls in Paul’s first unit (1:18-3:19). The greater context demonstrates God’s judgment upon self-righteousness in every form. This includes perverts, chosen Israelites, moral Gentiles, and all humans in general. God’s judgment will be so conclusive that every mouth will be stopped (3:19).

Unsaved Gentiles will receive a reward for their good deeds as some form of lesser eternal punishment.

The promise is only potential. Context shows that it can never be reached. All will be condemned (3:19).

No one is justified by works. The lexical evidences presented earlier shows that justification for humans is purely passive.

You cannot force fit your view upon the text in violation of context and lexical evidences. No number of errant posts makes a truth.

Lloyd

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by ascund:

Unsaved Gentiles will receive a reward for their good deeds as some form of lesser eternal punishment.

Lloyd

Your statement infers that there are degrees of punishment in Hell. Are there? Or does everyone in the Lake of Fire receive equal and the same punishment, burning forever in the Lake of fire. It is a reasonable and interesting question to ask. Will Hitler, Stalin, Osama Ben Ladin, Saddam Hussein, and other cruel tyrants and evil men suffer more than "good" people who have done nothing more than to live in their own self-righteousness and reject the Saviour?

I for one do believe there are degrees of punishment in Hell (Lake of Fire), although I can't envision or comprehend it. I believe the Bible teaches it.

Matthew 11:20-24 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not:
21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes.
22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.
23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Jesus definitely teaches that there will be degrees in Hell (eternal punishment), as he says that it will be more tolerable for Sodom (that wicked city) than it will be for Capernaum, where all the mighy works of Jesus were done in person, and yet they did not believe. How will it be more tolerable in the Day of Judgement (Rev.20:15-20)?
Their punishment in the Lake of fire will somehow be less than that which the inhabitants of Capernaum living at the time of Christ will be given. Homosexuality does not even compare to the unbelieve of those who saw the miracles of Christ and heard his very words and still did not believe. Thus they will receive the greater judgement at the Lake of Fire. This is the teaching of Christ in this passage.

Revelation 20:12-13 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
--Why is every man who is going to receive the same sentence of being thrown into the Lake of Fire, judged according to their works, if there are no degrees of punishment in Hell (Lake of Fire)? Some will obviously receive a greater punishment than others, although this finite mind cannot exactily comprehend what the infinite God has in mind for these unsaved wretches who dared to defy the King of Kings, and reject His Son.
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by ascund:

Unsaved Gentiles will receive a reward for their good deeds as some form of lesser eternal punishment.

Lloyd
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Your statement infers that there are degrees of punishment in Hell. Are there? Or does everyone in the Lake of Fire receive equal and the same punishment, burning forever in the Lake of fire. It is a reasonable and interesting question to ask. Will Hitler, Stalin, Osama Ben Ladin, Saddam Hussein, and other cruel tyrants and evil men suffer more than "good" people who have done nothing more than to live in their own self-righteousness and reject the Saviour?

Problems with that --

#1. The Bible NEVER describes hell as "the reward for good deeds".

#2. The Bible never describes the Lake of Fire as "a good thing" given for good deeds of the wicked..

#3. When Romans 2 contrasts the GOOD with the BAD it is the contrast between ETERNAL LIFE and Hell. It is NEVER the contrast between hell and less-hell.

#4. In Luke 12 we DO see the contrast between hell and less-hell but NOT for "good deeds" rather it is for "ignorance"!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[ascund]

Hey Bob

Once again you speak with partial knowledge. Have you stopped to consider which judgment you are quoting? Why no - that would be akin to using context.

You've referenced the judgment of nations at the Revelation of Christ at the throne of His Glory on the earth in the Valley of Jehoshaphat. The basis of judgment is the nation's treatment of the Jews. Some nations will be destroy; some saved.

Your ignorance of simple eschatology now declares itself.

You use this ignorance to equate it with the judgment of believers with respect to sin. Do you not know that this judgment is historic? It occured at the Cross as the result of Christ's finished redemption.

So, you don't understand these
__ justification and sanctification
__ destiny and rewards
__ eschatology.

The reason? A quest for a self-righteousness acceptance before God. You deny Christ and uplift yourself. This is very bad Bob!

Lloyd

 

[BobRyan]

Hey Lloyd.

You said "rant rant rant..." and then... something?

Hint: Try "communicating" instead. Quote something that I said that you actually want to substantively respond to -- and then "say something useful".

You know -- make an actual point.

That way we can dialog.

See?

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[ascund]

Hey Bob

How much clearer does it have to be?

I've shown you the lexical evidences of justification and sanctificatino.

I can't help it that you run from 40 biblical proofs of justification that show:
__ you can't work for justification
__ you denigrate God's domain
__ you deny the Christ you claim to worship

I can't help it that your run from 19 biblical proofs of sanctification that show:
__ only God set's believers aside (sanctification)
__ humans are active in purification.

You keep confusing the basics. So I keep "ranting" for you to come back to kindergarden. You've missed a lot in your sojourn.

Hurry Back!
LLoyd

 

[BobRyan]

Since you are back to your ranting -- and still avoiding the POINTS RAISED in this discussion --

Failed arguments are made the more obvious in their failings by noting their consistent need to avoid the devastating text of scripture raised against them. That string of unanswered points exposes their flaws and all the conjecture and speculation needed to prop up false teaching. Falsehood needs to consistently gloss over and ignored inconvenient texts of scripture so that the adherents may cling to bias and tradition over exegesis in the Word of God.

But then to suppose that “time passing in silence” will suffice as “The response” to the unanswered texts so devastating to a flawed doctrine – is to embrace even deeper self-deception. It is running and hiding from the most blatant of inconvenient facts – all in service of a “good story”.

Try the more direct approach of QUOTING doctrinal statement of mine that you wish to object to -- and then objecting.

Just simply ranting does nothing for your case.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[ascund]

Hey Bob

Here is the lexical work that should have been able to duplicate for yourself. I post it again - but I bet you run from it again. Who is blocking the dialogue Bob?

SORTED BY VOICE, THEN TENSE
ACTIVE VOICE
Luke 10:29; Pres Act Inf; The lawyer, willing to justify himself, said to Jesus …
Luke 16:15; Pres Act Ptcp; You are those who are justifying yourselves before men.
Rom 3:26; Pres Act Ptcp; God is the One justifying those who believe in Jesus.
Rom 8:33; Pres Act Ptcp; God is the One Who justifies.
Gal 3:8; Pres Act Ind; God would justify the heathen through faith.
Rom 3:30; Fut Act Ind; God will justify by faith.
Rom 8:30; Aor Act Ind; Those who he called, he justified and glorified.
Luke 7:29; Aor Act Ind; The publicans justified God.
PASSIVE VOICE
Acts 13:39; Pres Pass Ind; All who believe are justified
Rom 3:24; Pres Pass Ptcp; Being justified freely by his grace through Jesus’ redemption.
Rom 3:28; Pres Pass Infin; We are justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom 4:5; Pres Act Ptcp; Those who believe in Jesus are justified. Faith is counted for righteousness.
Gal 2:16; Pres Pass Ind; We are not justified by the works of the law.
Gal 3:11; Pres Pass Ind; No one is justified by the law. The just (dikaios) shall live by faith.
Gal 5:4; Pres Pass Ind; Christ is of no effect if you are justified by the law. Ye are fallen from grace.
James 2:24; Pres Pass Ind; A man is justified by works and not by faith only.
Matt 11:19; Aor Pass Ind; Wisdom is justified of her children.
Luke 7:35; Aor Pass Ind; Wisdom is justified by her children.
Rom 3:4; Aor Pass Subj; God’s Word is given that you might be justified.
Rom 4:2; Aor Pass Ind; If Abraham was justified by works he can boast.
Rom 5:1; Aor Pass Ptcp; Being justified by faith, we have peace with God.
Rom 5:9; Aor Pass Ptcp; Being justified by Jesus’ blood, we shall be saved from God’s wrath.
I Cor 6:11; Aor Pass Ind; We are justified and sanctified in Jesus’ name by God’s Spirit.
Gal 2:17; Aor Pass Infin; If we seek to be justified by Christ and found to be sinners, is Christ the minister of sin? God forbid!
Gal 3:24; Aor Pass Subj; The law brought us to Christ that we might be justified by faith.
I Tim 3:16; Aor Pass Ind; God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, believed in the world, and received up into glory.
Tit. 3:7; Aor Pass Ptcp; Being justified by His grace, we should be made heirs.
James 2:21; Aor Pass Ind; Was not Abraham justified by works when he offered up Isaac?
James 2:25; Aor Pass Ind; Rahab was justified by works.
Rev 22:11; Aor Pass Imper; He who is righteous, let him be righteous still.
Matt 12:37; Fut Pass Ind; You will be justified by your words.
Rom 2:13; Fut Pass Ind; The doers of the law will be justified.
Rom 3:20; Fut Pass Ind; No one will be justified by the deeds of the law.
Luke 18:14; Perf Pass Ptcp; The publican went away justified.
Rom 6:7; Perf Pass Ind; He that is dead is freed (justified) from sin.
I Cor 4:4; Perf Pass Ind; I am not yet justified (because of stewardship).

LEXICAL CONCLUSIONS
FROM THE ACTIVE VOICE
Negatively,
Jesus shows the lawyers error in self justification (Luke 10:29).
We can justify ourselves before others (Luke 16:15).
Positively,
God alone is active in justification (Rom 3:26; 8:30,33; Gal 3:8).
Positional justification is linked with positional sanctification (Rom 8:30).
Other,
The publicans justified God: Luke 7:29.
FROM THE PASSIVE VOICE
Negatively,
Before other humans, we are justified by works and faith (James 2) and our words (Matt 12:37).
Positively,
Humans are passively justified by God’s grace, by faith in Jesus’ name, by God’s Spirit, apart from works or deeds of the law. Justification results in permanent forgiveness of sin (Rom 6:7).


THEOLOGICAL CONCLUSIONS
Only God justifies. Rom 3:23-26 and Rom 8:33 shows that God’s righteousness is declare for the remission of sins. Thayer’s Lexicon defines dikaiow three ways: to render righteous, to show to be righteous, and to declare to be righteous. The sorting shows that God alone justifies.

In the past tense, dikaiovw is the believer’s historic release from the penalty of sin (Rom. 5:1, 6:7) through God’s declaration of righteousness (Rom. 3:30). Being freed from sin (Rom. 6:7) is presented in the perfect tense. Abraham is an example of one who was justified by faith (Rom. 4). Believers are both justified and sanctified (I Cor. 6:11). In the present tense, justification is used to show the lawyer’s errant quest to justify himself before Jesus (Luke 10:29). Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for self-righteously justifying themselves before others (Luke 16:15). In Paul’s Antioch sermon, he shows that the faithful are presently being justified (Acts 13:39). In Rom. 3:24-28, sinners are presently being freely justified by God’s grace through faith in Jesus’ propitiating blood. In the future tense, all the doers of the law will be justified (Rom. 2:13). Paul shows that if believers are now justified by Jesus’ blood, they shall even more be saved through Him (Rom. 5:9-10). Scriptures, speaking prophetically, declare that God will justify even the heathen through faith (Gal. 3:8).

As an active voice, dikaiovw is used in the present active to show the error of progressive justification in the Rich Young Ruler’s foolish trust in works (Luke 10:29). Jesus rebukes the Pharisees for self-righteously justifying themselves before others (Luke 16:15). Paul likewise denies conditions of active obedience for justification (Gal. 2:16, 5:4). Scripture reveals that God alone is active in imputing justification to the believing sinner at the singular event of faith (Rom. 4:5; Gal. 2:17; 3:8). The aorist active shows that God alone is justified (Luke 7:29). Justification, as an historic act, links with glorification, as an historic (future for us – historic for God) act (Rom. 8:30). The two future actives show God will justify only by faith (Rom. 3:30) in Christ (Gal. 2:17). There is not one use of dikaiovw as a perfect active. The active voice of dikaiovw shows that activity in justification is God’s sole domain.

As a passive voice, dikaiovw is used in the present passive tense to show that believers passively receive God’s imputed justification by faith without the deeds of law (Rom. 3:28) and apart from the law (Gal. 3:11). In the aorist passive, justification is in parallel with historic passive sanctification (I Cor. 6:11). Significantly, the perfect tense shows that the publican (Luke 18:14) went and remained totally justified. Believers who die in Christ are and permanently remain freed from sin (Rom. 6:7). The passive voice of dikaiovw shows justification is an event received by faith alone without any human activity.

This exegetical outline shows that justification is God’s work as the Judge of all mankind. This entails the forensic aspect that describes the believer’s position before God in His heavenly courtroom. Justification is a forensic term referring to God’s activity in His righteous declaration regarding the offense of sin. Because of faith in Jesus’ divine accomplishments as a remedy for fallen humanity, God responds to faith in a variety of ways. Negatively, God’s judicial acts eliminate all aspects of condemnation. His negative acts include a full legal pardon and the total forgiveness of sin. As a result of faith in Jesus Christ, all barriers to God are broken down (Eph. 2:14). In the verses that follow (14-17), Paul emphasizes the OT view of covenantal shālôm as he thrice links peace with this negative forensic demolition of barriers. While justification is inexorably linked with the elimination of negatives, it is much more. Positively, God’s justification does at least the following three things. First, He imputes Christ’s righteousness to the believing sinner (II Cor 5:21). Second, He accepts believing sinners and changes their status from enmity to full citizenship in heaven (Col. 1:3) with a title to eternal life. Third, He equips the believer with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Jesus (Eph. 1:3). God can totally justify sinners because of Christ’s complete, sufficient, and satisfactory work. Forensic justification is a theologically rich concept.

Believers, through faith in Jesus, receive God’s once-for-all time justifying declaration that secures the forgiveness of sins, Christ’s imputed righteousness, acceptance with God, and a certain hope in judgment that is the basis for present confidence.

I've got a little jolly working here.
Ever since I've seen how good you do with the cut and paste, I actually went and saved this stuff. Whenever you lose your mind again, all I have to do is cut and paste back! Your tactic works pretty good Bob!

Lloyd

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Some have argued that the saints are as depraved and bound to slavery to sin as any others so that all the arguments in scripture for endurance and faithfulness are just so much hot air. But is the Word of God really endorsing the idea of the “Wicked witness of the righteous’ or the “unright righteous” or the “enslaved saints” doomed to sin and rebellion? Does it really allow us to be “Self-deceived until the day we die” living in slavery to sin?

Others argue that “failure to persevere means eternal life” for the saints.

Question: IS that merely deception on the part of some proponents of “OSAS”? And in that case “should” we allow ourselves to “be deceived”??

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> 1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

God is not calling us “TO BE” deceived on this point – but rather “NOT to be DECEIVED”.

See?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in
heaven.

Rom 8
3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the Law of God, for it is not even able to do so,
8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

Luk 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

James 2:14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a
pure heart fervently:

1John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.


Romans 2

Notice the "text" perhaps for the first time – as it speaks about our IMPARTIAL God whose process of judging in the matter of salvation (and IN the context of the call to repentance (Rom 2:4)) "results" in some saved and some lost JUST as He describes IN Romans 2...

Rom 2
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Let "the text" speak.

#1. Romans 2 provides BOTH successful and failing cases for BOTH Jews and Gentiles.

#2. Romans 2 SAYS they are ALL judged based on DEEDS and the RESULT of that impartial judgment is that SOME fail and some succeed.

This is devastating to Calvinism.

#3. Romans 3 is IN the GOSPEL CONTEXT of the kindness and goodness of God - and the call to repentance.

This means that WITHIN the Gospel scenario there IS impartial JUDGMENT that results in SOME having eternal life and some not.

#4. Paul declares that the JUDGMENT is "according to my gospel". The judgment he speaks of is part of the Gospe.

#5. The Judgment results in "JUSTIFICATION" according to the text. It does not simply happen in a Gospel VOID where ALL those judged are condemned because of course - ALL are sinners.

#6. The DEEDS mentioned are the same FRUITs of MAtt 7 that Christ shows as "determining" outcoming.

#7 The ENTIRE thing is said to occur in an impartial manner and is GUARANTEED to be impartial because GOD HIMSELF is impartial when it comes to salvation according to Rom 2:11

The "obvious" point in both Romans 2 and Matt 7 is that it is NOT a scenario where God "arbitrarily selects out from among the doomed a few to FAVOR".

Both texts are going out of their way to START within the context of the Gospel and to SHOW that in that context of the goodness of God as our Father - and the call to repentance and forgiveness - WE HAVE a judgment of "deeds" where some fail and some pass.

It is NOT the more "general" case of Romans 3 where ALL are condemned WITHOUT the need for a "future judgment" since ALL have sinned.

Why treat ALL in this way?

ANSWER: Because "God is not partial"??


How then does Calvinism accept this chapter?

ANSWER: It does not.
=======================================================================================================

Rom2:
12 for all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;

Interesting that there are two different systems – one to address those who HAVE scripture and one to address those who do not. But BOTH having the potential outcome of loss or salvation. To this point Paul presents BOTH failing cases AND successful cases.

Paul appears to be in harmony with Christ here as Christ said that those who knew there master's will and did it not receive many lashes but those that did not know the master's will and yet did deeds worthy of punishment - receive few

Luke 12:
47“and that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes,
48 but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

Notice that Christ does not assume everyone goes to hell (both those who KNEW the Bible and those who did not) anymore than Paul would make such an absurd statement in Romans 2. Rather the chapter is in context with the call for repentance as noted at the start.

Romans2:
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

Having shown us both the group that in the future obtain immortality and the group that in the future suffer the wrath after the future judgment of God - Paul now sums it up - the justification that is future will be for the doers and not for those who are proven to be merely hearers. The test is the same Matt 7 indicator “NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord – but he who DOES” for the good tree produces good fruit.

This is not a fact that Paul then goes on to deny in the rest of the book of Romans. Rather he continues to strongly endorse it (note particularly Romans 6). John McAarthur did an excellent series on this point - titled "the power over sin". </font>[/QUOTE]Old news - one of the MANY points "unanswered"!!