Once Saved Always Saved part2

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

So you say that you have hope in Christ?
1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

 

[steaver]

HP;

So you say that you have hope in Christ?
1Jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Excellent verse for self-examination.

Here is a good commentary on this verse...

"Every man that hath this hope. The hope (Gr elpis) is not a "hope so" chance for the Christian , but a "know so" expectation which is part of the "knowledge" we have because of the indwelling Holy Spirit. It is because of this "sure expectation" that we "purify" our lives. But the implications here for the false teachers are they do not purify their lives because they do not have the hope; they do not have the hope because they do not have the Holy Spirit; they do not have the Holy Spirit because they are not children of God, which is obvious because they do not live righteous lives."

Benjamin C. Chapman, Ph.D. (from the King James Bible Commentary)

:jesus:

 

[DHK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
So yes, the believer that perseveres indeed will not be of those that draw back.

How about the Biblical teaching of all believers will persevere because their salvation is held in the hand of Christ. Salvation is of the Lord, not of man.

HP: I apply everything to myself. Do you believe I would admonish others to do that which I would not do myself? I am commanded to test the spirits as well as to examine myself to see IF I be of the faith.

Please take a warning here. Never, ever apply this passage (1John 4:1-4) to other believers on this board. It is questioning their salvation, a personal attack, and therefore against the rules. You are taking the passage out of context. The passage, if you read it, is speaking of false teachers, and even those that are demon-possessed. There is only one Holy Spirit that indwells a believer. To accuse a believer of other spirits indwelling them is to accuse them of being demon-possessed. That is what you are inferring when you say "Test the spirits." What other spirits are there besides but demonic spirits? Why are you inferring on this board that other believers are demon-possessed false teachers?

Remember you must apply this to yourself. Is it possible that you are a demon-possessed false teacher? If you don't think so, then why would you think others would be.

HP; Oh but there are questions asked of all of us. Do you love God? Is your love evident by the life you and I live and the intents we form on a daily basis? Either we love God, as seen by our keeping of the commandments, or we are servants of the enemy of our souls and as such deceived as to our standing before Him and the spirits witness to our lives. We cannot serve God and mammon. We cannot be servants of the Most High God and at the same time be found committing acts of sin.

Nowhere does the Bible say we must be sinless. If I accuse you of lying, cheating, coveting, in fact breaking every one of the ten commandments since you have been saved, I doubt that I would be wrong. Therefore your love for God is not always seen for God. Have you never lost your temper or been angry at your brother, which Jesus calls murder, for example? Thus your example is flawed, if you think that the testimony of loving and obeying Christ must be done 100% of the time from the time one is saved to the time one dies without exception. And if one dies suddenly without having repented of a sin he would not go to heaven. If those are your beliefs, they are flawed.
Christ forgave all my sins at the time of my salvation: past, present and future. And yes, I live as if he did. For he changed me at that time. His Spirit lives within. I live that way, because he has been changing me ever since, and is not done with me yet. But, yes, I still sin, as does every believer.

Read 1John 5. It speaks in clear terms that if we love God,(and there lieth no hope of eternal life outside of love towards God and our fellowman)we keep (not should, or might or maybe, BUT “KEEP”) the commandments. Tell me DHK, how can one keep the commandments if in fact they are in the persistent act of willful disobedience to known commandments of God?

Who said anything about the "persistent act of willful disobedience to known commandments of God." I didn't. Are you just now beginning to define terms. And what do you define as "the commandments of God"? Perhaps your definition is different than mine.

If a spirit testifies to our spirits peace and safety, yet our hearts condemn us, are we to believe that spirit?

You are taking Scripture out of context. You have referred to a verse in Romans 14 which has nothing to do with salvation. There is only one Spirit that dwells in me, and that Spirit is the Holy Spirit, and he will never condemn me to Hell.

Is not a test of the spirits a check to see if in fact they testify of the truth?

You are taking Scripture out of context. If you fear you have demons dwelling in you, you have a great problem. I don't. The Holy Spirit dwells in me. There are no spirits to test.

If a spirit testifies to our hearts that we love God and yet our conscience condemns us for failure to obey the commandments, are we to believe the spirit?

More Scripture taken out of context. The verse at the end of Romans 14 is not speaking of salvation. It is speaking of the conscious. And again, there is only one Spirit that dwells in me--the Holy Spirit. If you have another spirit in you that you can test, you have a problem--demonic possession and are not saved. You need to take care of that.

God gave us a conscience to be used as a tool to see if we are of the faith or not.

Back that up with Scripture. The Holy Spirit bears with my spirit that I am a child of God. Does He do the same with you? It is not my conscience! It is the Holy Spirit, and Him alone.

If our conscience condemns us, so does God being greater than us and knowing all things. If we are in direct violation of the commandments, and our conscience does not condemn us, such a one is far gone in deception. Such a one would certainly be found to have made shipwreck of the faith.

Study Romans 14. You are way of base. Look at the first couple of verses for example. Do you think that a vegetarian is unsaved because he eats vegetables and not meats? If he eats meat his conscience would "condemn" him. According to you he would go to hell for eating meat. This is what Paul is speaking about. Do you really believe a person will go to hell for eating meat??

They would either be bordering on grieving the Holy Spirit to a place that He has possibly given them up to their vile affections or the Holy Spirit has indeed left them.

For eating meat? "Thou art beside thyself!"

They can believe anything they so desire at that point, but if they are laying claim to an act of faith in the past, they are deceived as to their standing before God now. They are in deception.

And all because of a conviction that they ought to eat vegetables instead of meat. You really haven't studied Romans 14 have you?

HP: If you or anyone believes they are beyond deception, they are a prime candidate for deception. I hold my salvation by faith, faith that will be tested in this world and does not come to full fruition until the next.

I am beyond deception. I will never become a false teacher. I will always hold the truth in Christ that He is my Saviour and Lord, that Christ is the Second person of the triune Godhead, that he is perfect humanity and perfect deity at the same time; that he died for my sins, took the penalty of eternal death upon himself, a penalty that I deserved, that believing in him I might have eternal life. I am not deceived. I never will be. I stand on the Word of God. Christ is my Saviour. The Holy Spirit bears witness to my spirit that I am his child. I cannot be deceived of this fact, and I never have for the last thirty some years.

My faith is a "perfect faith" in that it is not blind. It is based on fact--the fact that Jesus Christ died for my sins, was buried, and rose again the third day according to the Scriptures. (1Cor.15:1-4). Faith is not blind. Faith is based on fact, intelligent fact.

 

[DHK]

Now I have faith, with the real possibility of deception, but when I stand before Him and here those words “Well done thou good and faithful servant” and see my name in the Lambs Book of Life, then and only then will I have 100% knowledge of my standing and my faith will dissipate as the morning fog and my faith be turned to sight.

If you have the possibility of deception, then how do you know you will stand before him and hear those words? How do you know that you will not hear: "Depart from me into everlasting fire for I never knew you"?

HP: Who said I doubted that I will be of that faithful remnant? I do not recall saying that. If I have, remind me of where I have said it. I have faith that I am, but faith is not synonymous with 100% absolute knowledge you speak of.

You keep inferring that you will not be of that faithful remnant by referring us to 2Cor.13:5.
Remember you said that you would gladly apply everything that you had written to yourself. See the verse below

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
--Perhaps you are that reprobate, and not of that faithful remnant? How do you know for sure?

HP: Then you also have a clear conscience before God and are cognizant of keeping the commandments. Certainly we can and do know by faith our standing before God, but such knowledge is proven or established in our minds via the Holy Spirit when our conscience is clear before Him. If ones conscience is not clear, and yet a spirit testifies to us that we are in right standing, do not believe that spirit. It is not testifying of the truth. If we are not overcoming the world as testified by the Spirit via our conscience, then we can have no confidence of our standing before God. “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world.” Certainly we will not be overcomers apart from believing on God, but one that says I believe, yet fails to overcome, has no right to believe that their faith alone will save them. “Faith without works is dead being alone."

Again you take Scripture out of context by quoting James. James is teaching that the result of being saved is works. He isn't teaching works is part of salvation. You have taken Scripture out of context.
Concerning our conscience, I agree with Paul who said:

Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.
--That is what Paul did, and that is what I do. That is what God expects. He expects nothing more.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
--There are no conditions to salvation. It is unconditional as Phil.1:6 teaches. Christ performs the work of salvation. He keeps that salvation right until the day of Jesus Christ. There is nothing I can do to take it out of his hand. It is forever in his hand. Salvation is all of Christ. It is not of man. It is unconditional.

HP: Here is a clear passage that answers those questions.

And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

It is this last verse that is the most important.
We know that he abides in us by the Spirit which he has given us. I know that He has given me His Spirit. I know that I am His child. Do you? I know that the eternal life He has given to me shall never be taken away. It is a gift that will never be rescinded.

 

[Lysimachus]

Hey folks! It's me again....sorry I've been away for so long, but I have not forsaken you!

I've just been extensively busy with various activities regarding business and planning, so I have not had a chance to respond.

Stay tuned, however, I will be responding as soon as possible!

God bless,

Lys

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
HP: Now I have faith, with the real possibility of deception, but when I stand before Him and here those words “Well done thou good and faithful servant” and see my name in the Lambs Book of Life, then and only then will I have 100% knowledge of my standing and my faith will dissipate as the morning fog and my faith be turned to sight.

DHK: If you have the possibility of deception, then how do you know you will stand before him and hear those words? How do you know that you will not hear: "Depart from me into everlasting fire for I never knew you"?

HP: One can know by faith, as attested to by a clear conscience before God and man.
Quote:
HP: Who said I doubted that I will be of that faithful remnant? I do not recall saying that. If I have, remind me of where I have said it. I have faith that I am, but faith is not synonymous with 100% absolute knowledge you speak of.

DHK: You keep inferring that you will not be of that faithful remnant by referring us to 2Cor.13:5.
Remember you said that you would gladly apply everything that you had written to yourself. See the verse below

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?
--Perhaps you are that reprobate, and not of that faithful remnant? How do you know for sure?

HP: One can know by faith, as attested to by a conscience void of offense before God and man, just as Paul knew and testified to. Ac 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.
Quote:
HP: Then you also have a clear conscience before God and are cognizant of keeping the commandments. Certainly we can and do know by faith our standing before God, but such knowledge is proven or established in our minds via the Holy Spirit when our conscience is clear before Him. If ones conscience is not clear, and yet a spirit testifies to us that we are in right standing, do not believe that spirit. It is not testifying of the truth. If we are not overcoming the world as testified by the Spirit via our conscience, then we can have no confidence of our standing before God. “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world.” Certainly we will not be overcomers apart from believing on God, but one that says I believe, yet fails to overcome, has no right to believe that their faith alone will save them. “Faith without works is dead being alone."

DHK: Again you take Scripture out of context by quoting James. James is teaching that the result of being saved is works. He isn't teaching works is part of salvation.

HP: I have done no such thing. The problem you are having DHK is that you try to make the whole of salvation dependant upon only one act of faith alone, when Scripture simply tells us otherwise. Salvation starts with an act of faith, continues with a life of obedience, and will be consummated in absolute knowledge as we stand before Him in judgment and hear those words, “Well done thou good and faithful servant.” Salvation involves all three senses, past, present, and future. Put your arms around the whole, not simply the point one enters in by faith to a conditional promise.

Yes faith is still dead apart from works DHK, just as Scripture plainly says, and dead faith will save no one.

DHK: Concerning our conscience, I agree with Paul who said:

Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.
--That is what Paul did, and that is what I do. That is what God expects. He expects nothing more.

HP: Wow! Start the party! DHK and I agree!! (Just between you and me DHK, let’s just not get carried away with this agreement, because we both know how it kills good debate.)

By the way, there IS just one more thing God requires out of you DHK. You have to love me to get to heaven.:thumbs:

DHK: Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
--There are no conditions to salvation. It is unconditional as Phil.1:6 teaches. Christ performs the work of salvation. He keeps that salvation right until the day of Jesus Christ. There is nothing I can do to take it out of his hand. It is forever in his hand. Salvation is all of Christ. It is not of man. It is unconditional.

HP: I could simply trade Scripture for Scripture by listing dozens of conditional passages, but we have done that before. I will simply state the opposite. Scripture does attest clearly to the fact that salvation is indeed conditional.
Quote:
And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

DHK: It is this last verse that is the most important.
We know that he abides in us by the Spirit which he has given us. I know that He has given me His Spirit. I know that I am His child. Do you? I know that the eternal life He has given to me shall never be taken away. It is a gift that will never be rescinded.

HP: DHK, as long as you maintain that clear conscience before God and man, you can have all the assurance you so desire and I will say nothing to detract from that assurance………except to warn you that such assurance is indeed conditional upon maintaining that clear conscience.

 

[DHK]

Quote:
HP: Now I have faith, with the real possibility of deception, but when I stand before Him and here those words “Well done thou good and faithful servant” and see my name in the Lambs Book of Life, then and only then will I have 100% knowledge of my standing and my faith will dissipate as the morning fog and my faith be turned to sight.

(The bolding is mine). Note the doubt that you express. You have no assurance of your salvation. You could go to hell today. Only at the end of your life, you say, do you know for sure if you will enter heaven. Muslims also believe the same.
But here is what the Bible says:

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
--The Bible does not use such words as: hope, guess, or "possible," (the word you used). It uses the word "know," meaning having absolute knowledge. I have absolute knowledge that I will go to heaven when I die, even if I die with unconfessed sin. There is no such thing as a perfect saint. As imperfect as we are if I were to die suddenly before I made things right with God and man, I would still go to heaven.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus--NONE!

HP: One can know by faith, as attested to by a clear conscience before God and man.

False. One can know for sure based on the sure promises of Jesus Christ who never lies. It is Christ that keeps our salvation; not man. Salvation is not of works. Why do you keep on inferring that salvation is by works?

HP: Who said I doubted that I will be of that faithful remnant? I do not recall saying that. If I have, remind me of where I have said it. I have faith that I am, but faith is not synonymous with 100% absolute knowledge you speak of.

Many times you have indicated doubt.
Look at your first paragraph.
"Then and only then will I have 100% knowledge." That is not assurance; it is doubt.
You said you have "the real possibility of deception," or being deceived about your own salvation. There is no assurance of your salvation here, only doubt that you will not be of the faithful remnant.

HP: One can know by faith, as attested to by a conscience void of offense before God and man, just as Paul knew and testified to. Ac 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.

That is not true is it.
The question is based on 2Cor.13:5. How do you know that you are not a reprobate?
I know I am not a reprobate because I have believed on the sacrificial work of Christ and he saved me. I do not continually need to examine myself to have that knowledge. I believed. And when I believed he forgave all my sins: past, present and future. There is no need to keep examining myself concerning my salvation. You have taken that verse out of its context.

HP: Then you also have a clear conscience before God and are cognizant of keeping the commandments. Certainly we can and do know by faith our standing before God, but such knowledge is proven or established in our minds via the Holy Spirit when our conscience is clear before Him.

Concerning my salvation, my conscience is clear because I have trusted Christ as my Saviour. I know that I have eternal life, not because of what I do, but rather because of what Christ has done.

If ones conscience is not clear, and yet a spirit testifies to us that we are in right standing, do not believe that spirit.

Why do you continue to take Scripture out of context?
The only Spirit that dwells within me is the Holy Spirit. And this is what he testifies:

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
--He testifies that I am His child.
There are no other spirits to test. There are no demonic spirits dwelling in me. To make such an accusation is abhorrent. I warned you not to make those accusations. If you keep doing this administrative action may be necessary.

It is not testifying of the truth. If we are not overcoming the world as testified by the Spirit via our conscience, then we can have no confidence of our standing before God. “For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world.” Certainly we will not be overcomers apart from believing on God, but one that says I believe, yet fails to overcome, has no right to believe that their faith alone will save them. “Faith without works is dead being alone."

Applying what you have said to your own self, you must believe the real possibility that demonic spirits dwell in you and not the Holy Spirit. Is that really true. If so you should not be on this board. It is for Christians only.

HP: I have done no such thing. The problem you are having DHK is that you try to make the whole of salvation dependant upon only one act of faith alone, when Scripture simply tells us otherwise. Salvation starts with an act of faith, continues with a life of obedience, and will be consummated in absolute knowledge as we stand before Him in judgment and hear those words, “Well done thou good and faithful servant.” Salvation involves all three senses, past, present, and future. Put your arms around the whole, not simply the point one enters in by faith to a conditional promise.

Yes faith is still dead apart from works DHK, just as Scripture plainly says, and dead faith will save no one.

Yes, you have taken Scripture out of context, again!
The theme of James is practical Christian living; not salvation. James is not writing about salvation. If you want to know about the relation of works to salvation then read Romans chapter four. The Bible does not contradict itself. But you make it contradict itself. You present a salvation of works. There is no Scripture that advocates that salvation is a process. That is unscriptural. There is no such thing as being born again and again and again.

HP: I could simply trade Scripture for Scripture by listing dozens of conditional passages, but we have done that before. I will simply state the opposite. Scripture does attest clearly to the fact that salvation is indeed conditional.

There is no Scripture that says salvation is conditional. It is unconditional as all Scripture attests. To say that it is conditional you have to twist Scripture, take it out of context, stomp on it, bend it, crush it, smatter it, butcher it, slice it up, dice it up, cut it up, and in the end throw it out.

And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

HP: DHK, as long as you maintain that clear conscience before God and man, you can have all the assurance you so desire and I will say nothing to detract from that assurance………except to warn you that such assurance is indeed conditional upon maintaining that clear conscience.

No, that salvation is unconditional. That assurance is from God himself, whose grace is sufficient for me, each day, every day. It is not about works. It is about a relationship with Jesus Christ. And that relationship began the day I trusted in Him as my Saviour; the same day he gave me unconditional salvation, unconditional forgiveness of sins (past, present, and future), and unconditional eternal life, all because of his unconditional love for me.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: --The Bible does not use such words as: hope, guess, or "possible," (the word you used).

HP: Is that so? Do a word search on the word ‘hope’ and report your findings on the verses that use the word ‘hope’ in relationship to our salvation.

DHK: It uses the word "know," meaning having absolute knowledge. I have absolute knowledge that I will go to heaven when I die, even if I die with unconfessed sin.

HP: Do a word search on ‘absolute’ or ‘absolute knowledge’ and report your findings. I will be waiting to see what you find.

 

[DHK]

HP: Is that so? Do a word search on the word ‘hope’ and report your findings on the verses that use the word ‘hope’ in relationship to our salvation.

HP: Do a word search on ‘absolute’ or ‘absolute knowledge’ and report your findings. I will be waiting to see what you find.

How quick you are to quote me out of context!!

1 John 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

To make it more more clear for you, I will reiterate what I have said:

"The Bible does not use such words as: hope, guess, or "possible," (the word you used). in 1John 5:13, rather it uses the word "know," meaning absolute knowledge.
I know, for absolutely sure that I am going to heaven if I should die this night even if I have unconfessed sin in my life.
I know Jesus has given me eternal life. You do not; you have, by your admission, no assurance.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I know Jesus has given me eternal life. You do not; you have, by your admission, no assurance.

HP: Sorry DHK for my last post. You are right. I did not read it properly. Just the same, the word hope is used in many places to describe the knowledge we have of salvation and our assurance therof.

Show me one place ever that I have stated or implied that we cannot or do not have an assurance of salvation in this present world. Are you certain you may not be misquoting me?

 

[DHK]

Show me one place ever that I have stated or implied that we cannot or do not have an assurance of salvation in this present world. Are you certain you may not be misquoting me?

Go through your own posts.
Everytime you use 2Cor.13:5
2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

If applied to yourself:
1. You must examine yourself to see whether you are saved or not, therefore you are not sure that you are saved. Correct? You have no assurance.
2. Prove your own self. Prove, demonstrate, test, that you are indeed saved. How do you know? According to your interpretation you have no definite assurance. You have to continually examine yourself and prove yourself to see whether or not you are a true believer.
3. "How that Jesus Christ is in you?" Seriuosly now! You have no assurance that Jesus Christ is in you because you have to continually examine yourself to see if He is or not. You doubt your own salvation. You have no assurance.
4. Except you be reprobates. In fact you may be a reprobate. How do you know that you are not a reprobate? According to you, you need to examine your self; prove yourself; etc.

This is your interpretation of this verse. It is one that you have taken out of context along with 1John 4:1-4 which speaks about testing the spirits (also taken out of context).
The former passage speaks of false teachers and the latter speaks of demon possession, and you try to apply both of these passages to Christians which really is an ugly interpretation of Scripture.