Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Steven Yeadon]

I am going to take a contrarian position and argue that we are not once saved, always saved. Now, as this debate dovetails with the debate of whether we have choice or some free aspect of the will, I believe it is and will be shown to be couched in Arminian vs Calvinistic language and arguments.

The following is a very simple argument I will build on in time in this thread. Now, I will be doing bible study as this debate evolves and I will find all the verses I can and post them. This will help me better argue my contrarian position in new ways.

For now I will point out that Believers, whom the New Testament talks to, are regularly called by Jesus and the apostles to watch their behavior. Not only are they told this, but they are warned repeatedly of horrible consequences. Of these consequences, the one that jumps out most especially is eternity in hell. We often assume these verses apply to false Christians, but how do we define a false Christian? Why not just use the rubric that one who does not live doing the Father's will is in fact lost. This would seem to be a great way of making the Gospel message make sense given the hard statements of Matthew 7, the Book of James, and the Book of 1 John. These statements are no longer hard if we believe that we have always had the choice to jettison our faith. Also, how in the world does any of this fit into the conception that a person has all of their sins past, present, and future paid for? The weight of so many warnings should give pause to those that think they are permanently safe.

In addition, the disciples are even told to not judge outsiders but to instead judge amongst themselves and rebuke each other so as to be free of sin. Relatedly, we are told to fear the Lord all throughout the bible, including the New Testament. However, how can we have a healthy fear of the Lord, and thus be deadly afraid of rejecting His will, if we believe ourselves to be eternally safe? Why fear God at that point?

Lastly, if there is no certainty to our salvation in this life, does that mean we have so called free will or that God's plan is more complex than previously believed

Again, I will have the verses to back up my basic assertions and add to my statements in time. I just don't have the time to look all of them up tonight.

 

[TCassidy]

Steven, allow me to draw a parallel to your behavior issue.

When I was growing up my father often admonished me to be careful of my behavior. When I disregarded his admonishment my behavior displeased him. It often interfered with our communication.

But regardless of our broken lines of communication, our broken fellowship, our relationship never changed. I was still his son, and he was still my father. Born of him after the flesh. Of his bloodline. Forever.

My behavior often displeases my Heavenly Father, but He is still my Heavenly Father and I am still his son. Born of Him, not of bloodlines, nor of the flesh, but Born of Him, His child. Forever.

 

[Steven Yeadon]

Steven, allow me to draw a parallel to your behavior issue.

When I was growing up my father often admonished me to be careful of my behavior. When I disregarded his admonishment my behavior displeased him. It often interfered with our communication.

But regardless of our broken lines of communication, our broken fellowship, our relationship never changed. I was still his son, and he was still my father. Born of him after the flesh. Of his bloodline. Forever.

My behavior often displeases my Heavenly Father, but He is still my Heavenly Father and I am still his son. Born of Him, not of bloodlines, nor of the flesh, but Born of Him, His child. Forever.

Wow, that's a really good response.

OK, then I must ask why do you fear your Heavenly Father at all? Is there any harsh discipline involved in your life in order to make it more pleasing to our Heavenly Father? Are you afraid of the judgment of Believers before the seat of Christ in any way? Lastly, do you expect any extra discipline in this life because of your sins?

I ask because it seems the actual fear, which translates more like terror in English, of the Lord is very rare in the church. Yet it is the vehicle that keeps me from sinning the most.

Of course we are told in the bible that fear gives way to love (1 John 4:18-19). I interpret these verses as such as Paul regularly tells us to fear the Lord and once he calls us to tremble before Him. As such, it seems that John shows that when we fully experience God's love and fully love him back; all fear is driven out. I am still working to fully experiencing God's love, but I have a long way to go it seems.

 

[TCassidy]

OK, then I must ask why do you fear your Heavenly Father at all?

I do not fear His judgment for He already judged Christ for my sins. So now, as the song writer so aptly said, "Fearing naught but God's angry frown." I fear disappointing Him. Not because He will treat me harshly, but because I will have failed His great love for me.

Is there any harsh discipline involved in your life in order to make it more pleasing to our Heavenly Father?

As Jesus told the disciples, the blind man was blind, not because he sinned and not because his parents sinned, but for the Glory of God to be revealed in the blind man.

10 years ago I was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis. I don't know why God allowed me to have this terrible disease. But I know this. "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness."

Are you afraid of the judgment of Believers before the seat of Christ in any way?

No. I hope only to hear "Well done, thou good and faithful servant."

Lastly, do you expect any extra discipline in this life because of your sins?

I don't know why God allows such things in my life, but I know that God says "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Of course we are told in the bible that fear gives way to love (1 John 4:18).

And that mature love casts out all fear.

I am not only saved in Christ, I am safe in Christ. No reason for fear.

 

[Alcott]

Let me ask you: is your eternal fate dependent upon what you are doing at the time of death? If you are 'making eyes' at a woman [lust] just at the time some sniper shoots you dead, is that sin unrepented of, and therefore you are perdition-bound?

 

[Mr. Davis]

False Christians are mentioned in Matt 7 as you have said. But Christ said there, He never knew them. They were never saved. They did miraculous works in His name alright, but others did that too: though they were not saved, Jesus said that "whoever is not against me is for me". Also, in John 6, at the end, there were false disciples (never really believed.) And in 1 John (or elsewhere) he writes that those who were with us, but departed, were never really of us.

Free choice always includes contrary choice.You claimed you believe in Eternal Security. -See your OP in your last thread [SAME as Once Saved, Always Saved, by the consensus of the Forum when this topic had been thoroughly debated!] But "free choice" means believers can always choose against God and lose their salvation. It is no different for your "limited" choice. You never replied in detail about this.

Also, no one has ever successfully blended Arminianism (free choice) and God's Sovereignty. To try to do so does no justice to either of them. It's a fool's errand and always ends in complete disaster!

Concerning discipline for believers, I referenced for you Scripture from 1 Cor 3, (judgment of believer's works built on the foundation of Christ.) Severe discipline for the believer with nothing much to show for his life: yet SAVED "so as by fire." Also, the man in 1 Cor 5 who was having sex, ongoing (continuously), with his stepmother. Kicked out of the Church to have his body turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh. So that he may be SAVED in the Day of Christ. In 1 Cor 11, those abusing the Lord's Supper (as heinous as sins go) were disciplined with sickness and DEATH so as not to be condemned with the world.

If you wish more from me about God's discipline and His eternal commitment to His children, let me know.

 

[Mr. Davis]

Let me ask you: is your eternal fate dependent upon what you are doing at the time of death? If you are 'making eyes' at a woman [lust] just at the time some sniper shoots you dead, is that sin unrepented of, and therefore you are perdition-bound?

Arminians must be faithful to the end. They can lose their salvation at any time. Especially for dying without having stopped their sinful behaviors (continuous sin) and for dying unrepentant. But God’s free choice of the elect makes them eternally secure.

 

[Reformed]

Steven,

1 John 2:19 tells us that "They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so it would be shown that they all are not of us." The group of people the Apostle wrote about turned out to be false professors.

 

[tyndale1946]

Arminians must be faithful to the end. They can lose their salvation at any time. Especially for dying without having stopped their sinful behaviors (continuous sin) and for dying unrepentant. But God’s free choice of the elect makes them eternally secure.

I always looked at Eternal Salvation this way that is why I'm OSAS... I don't base my Salvation on my faithfulness but base it on Jesus Christ who is the only one who was and is faithful till the end... Its all of Christ and none of me... Brother Glen

 

[Mr. Davis]

Steven,

There was a general consensus the Last time we debated, "Once Saved, Always Saved," that it is EQUIVALENT to Eternal Security. Many also agreed that BOTH are EQUIVALENT with the Last point in the 5 points of TULIP formulated with Calvin in mind.This last point declares that the Elect will most certainly persevere. This point is also called the Preservation of the saints. See TCassidy's remarks elsewhere, and Sproul's declaration of this fact.

Please challenge these things--it might help you understand the stark contrasts between Calvinism and what you believe!

God bless you!

Brother Davis

 

[Yeshua1]

I am going to take a contrarian position and argue that we are not once saved, always saved. Now, as this debate dovetails with the debate of whether we have choice or some free aspect of the will, I believe it is and will be shown to be couched in Arminian vs Calvinistic language and arguments.

The following is a very simple argument I will build on in time in this thread. Now, I will be doing bible study as this debate evolves and I will find all the verses I can and post them. This will help me better argue my contrarian position in new ways.

For now I will point out that Believers, whom the New Testament talks to, are regularly called by Jesus and the apostles to watch their behavior. Not only are they told this, but they are warned repeatedly of horrible consequences. Of these consequences, the one that jumps out most especially is eternity in hell. We often assume these verses apply to false Christians, but how do we define a false Christian? Why not just use the rubric that one who does not live doing the Father's will is in fact lost. This would seem to be a great way of making the Gospel message make sense given the hard statements of Matthew 7, the Book of James, and the Book of 1 John. These statements are no longer hard if we believe that we have always had the choice to jettison our faith. Also, how in the world does any of this fit into the conception that a person has all of their sins past, present, and future paid for? The weight of so many warnings should give pause to those that think they are permanently safe.

In addition, the disciples are even told to not judge outsiders but to instead judge amongst themselves and rebuke each other so as to be free of sin. Relatedly, we are told to fear the Lord all throughout the bible, including the New Testament. However, how can we have a healthy fear of the Lord, and thus be deadly afraid of rejecting His will, if we believe ourselves to be eternally safe? Why fear God at that point?

Lastly, if there is no certainty to our salvation in this life, does that mean we have so called free will or that God's plan is more complex than previously believed

Again, I will have the verses to back up my basic assertions and add to my statements in time. I just don't have the time to look all of them up tonight.

Jesus stated that ALL that the father give to Him shall be saved, and that he will raise up ALL and lose NONE, correct?

 

[Mr. Davis]

Steven,
Look at Romans 5:19 (NIV 2011). It is Christ who obeys for us in the matter of Salvation. His perfect obedience is credited to the account of the elect. Since His obedience secures salvation, His finished work on the Cross means His Salvation is eternal and cannot be taken away.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I once heard a FWB on the radio say a person can be saved for 35+ years and one week prior to death, shipwreck his faith and die lost.

That's why I loathe freewillism. It dethrones God and enthrones man.

 

[Reformed]

Personally, I do not like the term Once-Saved-Always-Saved. I agree that someone who is genuinely converted cannot lose their salvation. How can you lose something you had no part in gaining? The Christian life is not defined by a static existence. Ephesians 2:10 states that, "we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, that He prepared beforehand that we should walk in them". Christians are saved in order bear fruit through good works. Good works do not save us, but they are an evidence of salvation. If there is no evidence of a changed life through good works, I implore a professed believer to make their calling and election sure (2 Peter 1:10) and test themselves to see if they are in the faith (2 Corinthians 13:5).

 

[tyndale1946]

I once heard a FWB on the radio say a person can be saved for 35+ years and one week prior to death, shipwreck his faith and die lost.

That's why I loathe freewillism. It dethrones God and enthrones man.

Yeah!... SG!... Those freewillers they take "GOD'S AMAZING GRACE" out of everything... Brother Glen

 

[TCassidy]

If there is no evidence of a changed life through good works,

But who makes the determination regarding those good works? Who decides there are enough good works or works that are good enough? Can we be arrogant enough to appoint ourselves such judges? And if so is that arrogant judgment not the opposite of the good works God has ordained for our lives?

When we appoint ourselves fruit inspectors are we not violating 2 Corinthians 10:12? "For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."

Wouldn't we be more wise to see to our own spiritual lives rather than presuming to pass judgment on the spiritual lives of others?

 

[TCassidy]

That's why I loathe freewillism.

It also denies that last man is fallen and in bondage to the law of sin and death in direct contradiction of Romans 8:2.

 

[Reynolds]

I once heard a FWB on the radio say a person can be saved for 35+ years and one week prior to death, shipwreck his faith and die lost.

That's why I loathe freewillism. It dethrones God and enthrones man.

In its more extreme forms it does. As Arminius presented it, it does no such thing. The belief that God has a Perfect and a Permissive will in no way "dethrones" Him. Man only has the freedom our sovereign God gives him.

 

[Mr. Davis]

It also denies that lost man is fallen and in bondage to the law of sin and death in direct contradiction of Romans 8:2.

TC,
Don't Arminians teach, that in some remote part of their being, there is an island of untouched (uncorrupted) consciousness that allows them to 'choose' salvation?

 

[Reynolds]

TC,
Don't Arminians teach, that in some remote part of their being, there is an island of untouched (uncorrupted) consciousness that allows them to 'choose' salvation?

No, some modern Arminians teach that. More accurately, non-Calvinistic (not Arminian) Southern Baptists teach that. Arminius taught total depravity.