Once saved always saved

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by steaver:
Good stuff Gerhard.

The only thing Spurgeon missed is our ability to accept or reject all that God has offered. God did not create puppets!

God Bless!

My dear friend, I would rather be - no, I would rather pray God - that I might be a puppet of His making than a Herculus of my own making.
You think Spurgeon "missed out"? No, I think you misunderstood him somewhere.
But lets stick to the Scriptures to illustrate the basic difference between what you it seems to me believe, and what I am quite sure Spurgeon believed. Let's look at the John 3:16 "... that whosoever believeth in Him should ... have everlasting life" "SO GOD LOVED"! God so loved is the source and creation of this new creation that "believeth". It is not for the creature to first and independently to believe or 'accept' AND THEN ONLY to receive a free gift of life. No, believing, that man who believeth had first been loved by God, and had already been gifted by God with eternal life and faith: "WHOSOEVER believeth" is THIS man and there's NO conditions attached!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

For those who may have other impressions about me and what I believe, I would like to add:
NO conditions attached - not even believing or keeping God's Sabbath Day, or baptism or the doctrine of baptism!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ah, I forgot to mention the one and only condition: That I am A SINNER so loved by God!

 

[Stephanie]

Hi all,
I think it was steaver's argument that really had me questioning whether I was truly believing the right thing, but in the end I do believe osas simply because if I think upon all that's been said I can get overloaded and confused. God is my Abba,my Dad. I am earthly and born into sin yet even before salvation I loved my kids so much I would give my life for any one of them. I can't be unborn. I was born to my father and he will by no means cast me out. If I dont believe that than everytime I fail, which is alot, I would think ,oh that's it, surely He's fed up with me now. God is love and he knows our future before we were born. I have heard of people backsliding, I've done it myself. I once heard a preacher say that if we once prayed and studied more than we do now, we're already backsliden. I have never witnessed a person who had a true encounter with Jesus deny him as being Lord. Even when I fell into sin I would have never thought about saying a cross word about Him and I would ask anyone who did not to do so around me. I knew my problems were of my own making. We were created in His image and can you ever imagine casting your child out? We all know the verse If you being evil know how to give your child good things, how much more the Father in heaven. Something to chew on. ps not a great speller I need my spell check on here!

 

[Stephanie]

It's possible that some are confusing fellowship with salvation. When I am born to my earthly father I can choose to associate with him or not to. I can never change the fact that he is my father. That is irrevocable.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Stephanie:
It's possible that some are confusing fellowship with salvation. When I am born to my earthly father I can choose to associate with him or not to. I can never change the fact that he is my father. That is irrevocable.

Amen! And so I can never CHOOSE the fact that he is my Father - that is irrevocable. But here's the mystery of Godliness, that our Father CHOSE us for his children! That is Divine Love! For what could He find in us to WILL to "adopt" us as his children? Amazing grace!

 

[Stephanie]

You go Gerhard!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Stephanie:
You go Gerhard!

Someone once said I used 'backbush talk' or whatever - another explained to me 'backbush' means far out (of America) places. I don't know American idiom, so kindly explain to me what "you go" means? Thanks

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You see, in my tongue "you go!" would mean "Voetsek!" from the Dutch "Voort seg ek" "Away say I!".
But I'm wasting words and your time. I guess I know what you have meant.

 

[Bro Tony]

"You go!" means you are doing a great job, keep it up.

Bro Tony

 

[steaver]

My dear friend, I would rather be - no, I would rather pray God - that I might be a puppet of His making than a Herculus of my own making.

Amen! So would I if that were the only choices.

It is not for the creature to first and independently to believe or 'accept' AND THEN ONLY to receive a free gift of life.

Amen! I agree.

No, believing, that man who believeth had first been loved by God, and had already been gifted by God with eternal life and faith: "WHOSOEVER believeth" is THIS man and there's NO conditions attached!

Here you have strayed from the truth of the scriptures. Eternal life is promissed to any who will answer the call God places in the heart of all people.

Why does Jesus tell the woman at the well to ask for the Living water? Why didn't He just tell her she will or will not get it?

God so loved is the source and creation of this new creation that "believeth".

Are you saying that God does not love all people but only those whom He chooses to grant eternal life?

God Bless!

 

[Stephanie]

Thanks for translation Tony. GBU

 

[MIZ83]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> While the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, they are conditioned upon our continued faithfulness, not a singular act of faith.

This statement is an oxymoron. "Irrevocable" means " cannot be recalled or undone ". Niether party has control over this. It is a done deal, cannot change. Just like your birth by water cannot be recalled or undone, niether can your spiritual birth (receiving the gift of eternal life) be recalled or undone. There is no " condition " upon anything. That is why it is called " irrevocable ".

It appears that you have illustrated the danger of finding a proof text by ignoring the context. In fact, you have found a proof text in a passage making the opposite point. Curious.

Not at all. This passage is dealing with “unbelief”. There are always those in every following who have not been “born again”. The difference is between appearing to believe, even saying you believe (James 2:14), and having true “born again” belief!

</font>[/QUOTE]Steaver,

I can tell you have wrestled long with the context: "This passage is dealing with unbelief." That was quite an exposition. It is hard to argue with you there.

My problem with your usage of Romans 11:29 is that you apply it in a way contradicted by the very passage in which it is found. The Israelites had been given a precious gift and a high calling, yet a corresponding faithfulness was expected of them. Those that were not faithful were broken off for their unbelief. "The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable", but that did not mean that men could not forfeit those gifts through unbelief. While God is faithful, men often are not. When Christ came, most Israelites fell into unbelief. As a result, they were cut off.

The Gentiles being saved were grafted onto the olive tree as a branch from a wild tree. Paul told them to fear, or be in awe, because God would not spare them either if they did not continue in faith. They were to take the example of the Israelites fall seriously. They needed to continue in the kindness of God or else they, too, would be cut off.

Thus, all Israel would be saved - those who were natural branches who remained by faith and those wild branches who were grafted onto the holy root. Those of us receiving nourishment from that holy root stand by faith. Those who fall into unbelief are broken off. It is an unspeakable gift to be in union with Christ. We have been called with a holy calling. God will not relent. He is faithful to His promises. But we enter into this relationship with God by faith and we stand by faith.

This is yet another passage teaching conditional security. That you take a verse out of context from this text believing it supports your position illustrates the main flaw in your approach. From some verses that speak of eternal life and being born again, you reason and build a theology to which every passage contrary to your conclusions is reconciled by claiming it is hypothetical or by claiming it speaks of those who are not quite believers in the usual sense of the word, ie. they are yet unsaved. Rather than letting the totality of the Scriptures form your theology, you brush aside verses like the one now in question. This passage does not speak of a hypothetical situation. This passage does speak of salvation.

Grafted onto the Holy Root, Jesus Christ our Lord,

Bob

 

[steaver]

"The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable", but that did not mean that men could not forfeit those gifts through unbelief.

Bob, brother. You cannot keep making these oxymoran declarations if you expect anyone to embrace your position. " Irrevocable " and " forfeit " are " oxymorans "!

Here is Webster's definition. " NOT CAPABLE OF BEING RECALLED OR UNDONE ".

Can you understand this? The word carries no conditions for a forfeit! I don't know how we can have a meaningful discussion if words don't mean what they say.

A birth is IRREVOCABLE. That is any birth, birth by water, birth by the Spirit of God. Has it ever crossed your mind why Jesus used the perfect analogy of one being born? It has a couple of distinct attributes. One cannot control one's water birth and a birth cannot be recalled or undone just to mention two!

There is no point in reviewing Romans 11 or any other passage unless you can call things by what they are. Precept must be upon precept. If your foundation is faulty, then your whole building will one day crumble to the ground.

This is what you said earlier...

"While the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, they are conditioned upon our continued faithfulness, not a singular act of faith".

I explained Webster's meaning of the word "irrevocable" once before after you said the above, yet you continue to place conditions contrary to the word's definition!

Answer this question Bob......

Have you been given this water Jesus spoke of Bob? Have you been "born again"? “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life .” (John 4:14)


God Bless!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> My dear friend, I would rather be - no, I would rather pray God - that I might be a puppet of His making than a Herculus of my own making.

Amen! So would I if that were the only choices.

It is not for the creature to first and independently to believe or 'accept' AND THEN ONLY to receive a free gift of life.

Amen! I agree.

No, believing, that man who believeth had first been loved by God, and had already been gifted by God with eternal life and faith: "WHOSOEVER believeth" is THIS man and there's NO conditions attached!

Here you have strayed from the truth of the scriptures. Eternal life is promissed to any who will answer the call God places in the heart of all people.

Why does Jesus tell the woman at the well to ask for the Living water? Why didn't He just tell her she will or will not get it?

God so loved is the source and creation of this new creation that "believeth".

Are you saying that God does not love all people but only those whom He chooses to grant eternal life?

God Bless!

</font>[/QUOTE]One easily strays from the topic, so I'll restrict myself to only part of your post.

QB, Eternal life is promised to any who will answer the call God places in the heart of all people. QE

...any who will ... Who will? Those in the heart of whom God places His Promise of eternal life. Are they "all people"? - obviously, not! This is the first differentiation - the general differentiation, and it all depends on God's will. Some - many, millions! - never had or never will hear the Promise of eternal life, the Gospel.
I don't say they are lost. I only say how any who are saved, are saved, and the first prerequisite is they hear Christ preached to them. God's Promise gets into the heart through the ear or mind. (Said Paul in onther words.)
Second differentiation between men and men, between saved persons and lost persons, the individual differnetiation: "... any who will answer the call ...". Any who will answer the call are any who are born again to answer, the regenerate or the new creation. Who helped God create the world? How much a newly born had to do with his own origin and birth? Now for the work of the exceeding greatness of God's power, whose help would He need? He who will answer is he who is uttering and taking with a mouth given him, and with a hand created like that of the man with the withered hand.
His own choice; his own will, his own - final - say? No, it God's word, God's will, God's decision, God's choice for him which such a man utters. Or would you deny? No one who has received grace would; he knows it's not his doing or of his own doing, but "grace for grace".

 

[Stephanie]

I am a believer of OSAS. I heard a pastor say the Bible speaks of people being blotted out of the book of life. Is this true? And if so, what does it mean and how does it apply to the Church?
In Christ,
Stephanie

 

[MIZ83]

Stephanie,

I believe this is the passage of which you were thinking:

NAS Revelation 3:1 "And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars, says this: 'I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 'Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 3 'Remember therefore what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. If therefore you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come upon you. 4 'But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white; for they are worthy. 5 'He who overcomes shall thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father, and before His angels. 6 'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.

I am sure that a few people will tell you what this doesn't mean...what it can't possibly mean. Anticipating their arguments, I would say the most likely answer will be that Jesus was talking to those among them who had believed, but hadn't quite made it to saving belief. That will be an interesting argument to hear applied to this passage. Another possibly might be that Jesus would come like a thief upon them with a physical judgement in this life. Another might be that Jesus was speaking hypothetically, but since He seems to address the specific situation of that congregation, I'm not sure we will hear that one.

I look forward to the answer, as well.

Blessings,

Bob

 

[steaver]

I am a believer of OSAS. I heard a pastor say the Bible speaks of people being blotted out of the book of life. Is this true? And if so, what does it mean and how does it apply to the Church?
In Christ,
Stephanie

Great question!

This passage is yet another reassuring promise from God encouraging the born again believer.

The following is the teaching from Charles L. Feinburg , Th.D., Ph.D. Former Visiting Professor, Liberty Baptist Theological Seminary B.A., University of Pittsburg; Th.B., Th.M., Th.D, Dallas Theological Seminary; M.A., Southern Methodist University; Ph.D., Johns Hopkins University.

He states it so clearly that I will quote him word for word.

In question..... " He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels (Rev 3:5)"

begin quote...

"There are actually three promises here. Clothed in white raiment . Garments are made only in the blood of the Lamb (cf. 7:14). The promise not to blot out his name out of the book of life is strong assurance of the eternal security of the believer. Moreover, Christ will delight to recognize (confess his name) as His own all overcomers. The method of overcoming is clear throughout the Word (cf. 1 John 5:4)"

.....end quote.

Here is 1 John 5:4.... " For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith ."

The born again overcome! The Word declares it so. Even saving faith is secured by God. Once born of God, that faith cannot fail because Jesus cannot fail. Praise Him!

No one gets blotted out of the Lambs book of life. Jesus is reassuring His own here that 1) We shall stand washed by the blood. 2) We shall overcome. 3) He will confess our names before the Father.

The preacher you heard was in error, not understanding the passage he was speaking about. It is an error of assumption by some to declare that some people get blotted out simply because Jesus assured His children at Sardis that He would not blot them out. This assurance can and should be applied to all of His children.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

One easily strays from the topic, so I'll restrict myself to only part of your post.

Not sure if you are saying that my comments/questions have strayed from topic or that you don't want to stray from topic, but here is what I asked, maybe it is off topic, but since you injected calvinism, I would like to know.........

Why does Jesus tell the woman at the well to ask for the Living water? Why didn't He just tell her she will or will not get it?


quote:Gerhard
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God so loved is the source and creation of this new creation that "believeth".
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are you saying that God does not love all people but only those whom He chooses to grant eternal life?

God Bless!

 

[Gregory Perry Sr.]

Interesting thread people....I have one idea/question.Is it POSSIBLE that God writes ALL the names of All people born into this world into His Book of Life (written BEFORE the foundation of the world)and only blots out those who failed to receive His promise of salvation in His Son(Old Testament),or the finished work of salvation in His Son at Calvary(New Testament)as they pass from this life into eternity at death?I'm not dogmatic about this...it's just an idea or thought that came to me as I pondered how one would come to have his/her name removed or blotted out of the Lambs Book of Life.Seems like a reasonable explanation of those passages to me.Any ideas folks?

Greg Sr.