Once saved always saved

[MIZ83]

Stephanie,

I replied at lunch quickly. In my haste, I overlooked an obvious fourth possibility. Ignore the context. When that is done, even a stern warning can become “a strong assurance of the eternal security of the believer.”

I would suggest you reread the passage in its entirety from vs1 to vs6. Ask yourself whether this is a warning or a “reassuring promise” of OSAS.

Blessings,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Stephanie:
I am a believer of OSAS. I heard a pastor say the Bible speaks of people being blotted out of the book of life. Is this true? And if so, what does it mean and how does it apply to the Church?
In Christ,
Stephanie

Dear Stephanie
Your pastor should not be a pastor. To be a pastor requires and brings grave responsibility! Three times Jesus asked Peter if he loved Him, and three times Jesus warned him, Take care of my sheep properly if you love Me so!
Jesus said no one is able to take those out of His hand whom the Father had given Him. Make Christ a liar, and say one name of a saved one will be removed from the Book of Life - which is Jesus Christ and none other!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by MIZ83:
Stephanie,

I replied at lunch quickly. In my haste, I overlooked an obvious fourth possibility. Ignore the context. When that is done, even a stern warning can become “a strong assurance of the eternal security of the believer.”

I would suggest you reread the passage in its entirety from vs1 to vs6. Ask yourself whether this is a warning or a “reassuring promise” of OSAS.

Blessings,

Bob

"even a stern warning can become “a strong assurance of the eternal security of the believer.”

Ah yes! Amen!

 

[MIZ83]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> "The gifts and calling of God are irrevocable", but that did not mean that men could not forfeit those gifts through unbelief.

Bob, brother. You cannot keep making these oxymoran declarations if you expect anyone to embrace your position. " Irrevocable " and " forfeit " are " oxymorans "!

Here is Webster's definition. " NOT CAPABLE OF BEING RECALLED OR UNDONE ".

Can you understand this? The word carries no conditions for a forfeit! I don't know how we can have a meaningful discussion if words don't mean what they say. ...There is no point in reviewing Romans 11 or any other passage unless you can call things by what they are. Precept must be upon precept. If your foundation is faulty, then your whole building will one day crumble to the ground.

This is what you said earlier...

"While the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable, they are conditioned upon our continued faithfulness, not a singular act of faith".

I explained Webster's meaning of the word "irrevocable" once before after you said the above, yet you continue to place conditions contrary to the word's definition!

</font>[/QUOTE]Steaver,

One can make an agreement involving conditions that is irrevocable. While the gifts and calling of God were irrevocable for the Jews, many throughout history were not faithful to God, and forfeited their gifts. At the time of Christ, most refused faith in the Messiah, and they were broken off in unbelief. The gifts and calling of God for them, although irrevocable, did not result in salvation because of their rejection of it. Paul warns against a similar fate for Gentiles who had been grafted on to the holy root. They stood by their faith, but they could be broken off if they did not continue in the kindness of God...if they did not continue in faith.

So, Steaver, our difference is not one of differing definitions of words. You want to build "precept upon precept", theological construct upon self-affirming theological construct. I just want to interpret contextually and let the theology work itself out as a result. My goal is to understand each passage within its context. My goal is to consider all that the Scriptures say on a given topic, not redefine texts that disagree with the views I bring to the text.

Blessings,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Gregory Perry Sr.:
Interesting thread people....I have one idea/question.Is it POSSIBLE that God writes ALL the names of All people born into this world into His Book of Life (written BEFORE the foundation of the world)and only blots out those who failed to receive His promise of salvation in His Son(Old Testament),or the finished work of salvation in His Son at Calvary(New Testament)as they pass from this life into eternity at death?I'm not dogmatic about this...it's just an idea or thought that came to me as I pondered how one would come to have his/her name removed or blotted out of the Lambs Book of Life.Seems like a reasonable explanation of those passages to me.Any ideas folks?

Greg Sr.

The Lamb's book of life, is a metaphor referring to the Lamb Himself. The Redeemed are as it were written in That Book of God from eternity and for eternity. The metaphor means that, no less, and no more.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> My dear friend, I would rather be - no, I would rather pray God - that I might be a puppet of His making than a Herculus of my own making.

Amen! So would I if that were the only choices.

It is not for the creature to first and independently to believe or 'accept' AND THEN ONLY to receive a free gift of life.

Amen! I agree.

No, believing, that man who believeth had first been loved by God, and had already been gifted by God with eternal life and faith: "WHOSOEVER believeth" is THIS man and there's NO conditions attached!

Here you have strayed from the truth of the scriptures. Eternal life is promissed to any who will answer the call God places in the heart of all people.

Why does Jesus tell the woman at the well to ask for the Living water? Why didn't He just tell her she will or will not get it?

God so loved is the source and creation of this new creation that "believeth".

Are you saying that God does not love all people but only those whom He chooses to grant eternal life?

God Bless!

</font>[/QUOTE]Again I shall answewr just part of your post in order not to loose my own concentration:
'Are you saying that God does not love all people but only those whom He chooses to grant eternal life?' I could give you myriads of Scriptures and myriads of the opinions of godly men, but shall ask you this simple question in stead: Are their men - people - whom God hates and says He hates?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

My own phrasing of an answer will be:
The LOVE of God PROJECTS as HATE even on the 'UNgodly' (to whom there are many references in the Scriptures).

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You know what I've often thought? The fact "God so loved the WORLD" - that is, this creation of His the EARTH "and all that in it is" - contains and portrays the strange idea of an affirmative to your question to me, "Are you saying that God does not love all people but only those whom He chooses to grant eternal life?" God so loved the world He wanted to save IT, and to that end and for that purpose, He so loved those whom He chooses to grant eternal life to that they might also have eternal life. God acted specifically and effectively in every respect - he failed in no respect, and that explains no one shall be lost whom He so loved that He chose to grant him eternal life ... along with this "world".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The rest must go to hell which they in any case deserve to go to - and so you see again their going or being sent to hell is God's LOVE as projected upon the ungodly.

 

[steaver]

Steaver,

One can make an agreement involving conditions that is irrevocable. While the gifts and calling of God were irrevocable for the Jews, many throughout history were not faithful to God, and forfeited their gifts.

No ,no, no Bob. You are not grasping the finality of declaring an object “irrevocable” (cannot be recalled or undone). You are mixing up the “offer of a gift” with the actual “receiving of the gift”. You would have an argument if the scripture stated it this way; “The gifts and calling offered by God are without repentance”, however that is not what it says. It is not the offer that is irrevocable. We know that a day is coming when the offer will expire as it can expire also in a personal way with one who has rejected the offer repeatedly over time. God can stop drawing or calling that person. In this truth of Romans 11:29, the calling is united with the gifts. It goes hand and hand. These are received callings and gifts. They are completed. In fact this very passage in question states it as so; God is blinding the Jews in part because of their refusal to hear His word. Many have already had the "offer" revoked. So it cannot be as you say.

You claim that I am pulling this out of context. The context is that both the Jews and the Gentiles are offered salvation and in each group there are those who are and will be cut off for unbelief. Paul says you stand by faith. Well do you? If you do not have faith, you will be cut off. Born again believers have faith and it is an un-failing faith. It is not something of our own merit. It is Jesus Christ living in the born again that sustains our faith. How can I ever cease to believe when I have Jesus Christ joined with my very spirit and being? You need to grasp the definition of “born again” Bob. Then and only then will these difficult passages of scripture make any sense.

You assume that Paul is always speaking to the "born again" true believers. Why? Here in Corinth Paul has doubts about their professions of faith; " Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates ?" (2Cor 13:5)

You didn’t answer my questions Bob. Here they are again.

Have you been given this water Jesus spoke of Bob? Have you been "born again"? “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life .” (John 4:14)

God Bless!

 

[Stephanie]

Being that I am not a Bible scholar like you guys, just kidding, I will tell you how I look at things. Why did God use the word gift if it was something that He might take back? We don't give people gifts just to take them back. Also, why would God love us enough to save us in our sin just to kick us out when we mess up? No, that's not my Father. Appreciate clear answers, no babble please. I am not as learned as some of you so please tell me without 10 charicter words.
In Christ-- Stephanie

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by Stephanie:
Being that I am not a Bible scholar like you guys, just kidding, I will tell you how I look at things. Why did God use the word gift if it was something that He might take back? We don't give people gifts just to take them back. Also, why would God love us enough to save us in our sin just to kick us out when we mess up? No, that's not my Father. Appreciate clear answers, no babble please. I am not as learned as some of you so please tell me without 10 charicter words.
In Christ-- Stephanie

Neither am I learned like you guys - nevertheless it seems we with our 10 and more character words agree with you, Stephanie! Reason to be grateful!

 

[steaver]

Being that I am not a Bible scholar like you guys, just kidding, I will tell you how I look at things. Why did God use the word gift if it was something that He might take back? We don't give people gifts just to take them back. Also, why would God love us enough to save us in our sin just to kick us out when we mess up? No, that's not my Father. Appreciate clear answers, no babble please. I am not as learned as some of you so please tell me without 10 charicter words.
In Christ-- Stephanie

The answer is right in your own heart Steph. It is as you said.

The opponents will say that it is not because you "messed up" but because you stopped believing or by your own willful rebellious living you have denied Christ and will have your gift (spiritual birth) recalled. Of course then I guess it really wasn't a "gift".

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

Are their men - people - whom God hates and says He hates?

Yes

The LOVE of God PROJECTS as HATE even on the 'UNgodly' (to whom there are many references in the Scriptures).

That is quite an interesting statement. I don't think it requires any rebutal.

The rest must go to hell which they in any case deserve to go to - and so you see again their going or being sent to hell is God's LOVE as projected upon the ungodly.

Tell me, why does anyone deserve to go to hell?

And I don't want to confuse your thoughts, but please answer the other question I had. Here it is again; Why does Jesus tell the woman at the well to ask for the Living water? Why didn't He just tell her she will or will not get it?


God Bless!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Are their men - people - whom God hates and says He hates?

Yes

The LOVE of God PROJECTS as HATE even on the 'UNgodly' (to whom there are many references in the Scriptures).

That is quite an interesting statement. I don't think it requires any rebutal.

The rest must go to hell which they in any case deserve to go to - and so you see again their going or being sent to hell is God's LOVE as projected upon the ungodly.

Tell me, why does anyone deserve to go to hell?

And I don't want to confuse your thoughts, but please answer the other question I had. Here it is again; Why does Jesus tell the woman at the well to ask for the Living water? Why didn't He just tell her she will or will not get it?


God Bless!

</font>[/QUOTE]Why did Jesus teach us the Lord's Prayer, "Our Father ... give us today ..." while He also said, My Father knows what you need even before you ask?

But better you come up with the answer yourself?

 

[steaver]

Why did Jesus teach us the Lord's Prayer, "Our Father ... give us today ..." while He also said, My Father knows what you need even before you ask?

God knows what you need before you ask because He is all knowing. Just like He knows all of those who will accept His free gift of salvation even before creation began.

Your question has nothing to do with my question.

Here it is again; Why does Jesus tell the woman at the well to ask for the Living water? Why didn't He just tell her she will or will not get it?

Be kinda dumb to tell someone to ask for something they already possess, no?


God Bless!

 

[MIZ83]

Steaver,

First, I have not answered your last questions because in the context of the discussion we have had, they are condescending. Early in the discussion I stated that I had placed my trust in the blood of Jesus. Your repeated questioning implies that you doubt my salvation. I stand by faith in the Crucified One and have no concern what any man thinks of me, Steaver. I am concerned only about what He thinks of me. Thus I was ignoring you, Steaver.

You assume that Paul is always speaking to the "born again" true believers.

No, you assume that he is not. You assume that the author is addressing those about whom he has “doubts about their professions of faith”. In actuality, you go beyond assuming, because in the texts we have been discussing, there is indication that Christians are under consideration. You read your theology into these texts against all the evidence in the texts to the contrary. You said earlier, “Since God’s word cannot contradict itself we must first conclude that this passage cannot be teaching that the saved somehow become lost again.” Bringing a closed mind to a text of Scripture is hardly the way to listen to God.

The context is that both the Jews and the Gentiles are offered salvation and in each group there are those who are and will be cut off for unbelief. Paul says you stand by faith. Well do you? If you do not have faith, you will be cut off.

There is no indication in the text that this refers to those who were not yet saved. There is no doubt that to be a part of Israel, the olive tree, is to be in a saving relationship. Paul says so. He says that all Israel will be saved. To be grafted onto the root is to enjoy its life-giving nourishment. The root supports the branches.

Romans 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith.

It is not that these Jews had not been in a relationship with God. Rather, they were broken off. You can’t break a branch off of a tree to which it was never attached, can you? The very point of comparison is being “grafted in”, brought into union with the Holy Root. Some of the Jews, however, were broken off. Their relationship with the Root was taken away.
When Paul said, “…you stand by faith”, he was not stating a principle and urging unbelievers to come to Christ. In context, he is speaking to those already believing and urging them to continue. “…they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith.”

Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you.

God did not spare the natural branches in breaking them off. Neither will He spare the wild branches that had been grafted in. We are not to be conceited. We are to fear. It is hard to imagine a true believer in OSAS being awed by the possibility of being broken off.

22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.

What could be clearer? Paul is warning them that the same thing could happen to them. How does one continue in God’s kindness? Keep living in faith. That is clear from what follows. Many Jews had fallen through unbelief. May we continue to trust in Jesus!

23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?

You argue that since the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable that we cannot be removed from our relationship with God. Yet verse 29 is directly applicable to the Israelites in that text. You would agree that statement didn’t exclude a Jew individually from being broken off for unbelief. Yet somehow you think that you can apply that statement differently than it is applied in the passage itself.

Romans 11 is very damaging, destructive actually, to your position.

Blessings,

Bob

 

[steaver]

You argue that since the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable that we cannot be removed from our relationship with God. Yet verse 29 is directly applicable to the Israelites in that text. You would agree that statement didn’t exclude a Jew individually from being broken off for unbelief. Yet somehow you think that you can apply that statement differently than it is applied in the passage itself.

Was every Jew a believer? No. Were the Jews of the OT covenant “born again”? No. You cannot comprehend the context and teaching of this passage because you have not grasp the teaching of “born again”. “Born again” is a new thing God has done post resurrection. It seals a child of God unto the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

Your repeated questioning implies that you doubt my salvation.

Quite the contrary brother! I want you to see the error of your position and this is why you choose to ignore answering the questions. I find this quite often. Whenever my questions cannot be answered without damaging one’s position, my questions are called “condescending” or “off topic” or “defensive about one’s salvation”. I have no such offensives. I answer all and every question that I am asked. If I missed any of yours or anyone else’s please reiterate and I will answer. I know that some questions can be viewed as rhetorical, so if I seem to have ignored any please ask again.

Now I will ask one more time and this pertains to your position on this topic and not your personal salvation, I have presumed the later.

Have you been given this water Jesus spoke of Bob? Have you been "born again"? “But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life .” (John 4:14)

Maybe I have been presumptuous. I am thinking you know the answer but choose to ignore it because it obliterates your position, but maybe you just don't know??

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

I've been thinking Bob, If you don't like the personal way the question is presented then how about just giving me your definition of "born again". Please use scripture while defining this rebirth that the Lord is speaking of. You once said that faith was not any one time act. Well, "born again" is and I would like for you to explain this birth for us.

God Bless!

 

[MIZ83]

Steaver,

Quite the contrary brother! I want you to see the error of your position and this is why you choose to ignore answering the questions. … Maybe I have been presumptuous. I am thinking you know the answer but choose to ignore it because it obliterates your position, but maybe you just don't know??

I stated clearly what I believed mistakenly that you were doing with your questions. How do you respond? You basically said that I was lying about why I did not respond. You are beginning to frustrate me, Steaver. And what is funny is that you accuse me of dodging your question when you fail to respond in a way that interacts in any kind of depth with either the text of Romans 11 or with my arguments from it. You didn’t even bother to find a commentator to ignore the implications of the text for you. You merely dismiss it with this nonsense about, “You cannot comprehend the context and teaching of this passage because you have not grasp the teaching of “born again”.” In other words, you demonstrated the truth of what I had said about your reading your theology into the text. Romans 11 says nothing about “born again”, but you want to talk about born again.

So I’ll move forward and happily answer your question.

I am born again. I have been born of the water and the Spirit. I have been saved through the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit whom God poured out richly upon me. I am drinking of the living waters. I have been united with Christ in the likeness of His death and raised to walk in newness of life. I have salvation, being grafted onto the Holy root. I am part of the vine and Jesus is the source of my strength, my vitality, and my life. I am a partaker of the Holy Spirit. I have been redeemed and made holy by the blood of Jesus.

Now fire away, brother.

Blessings to you,

Bob