Once Saved, always saved

Johnv · Dec 18, 2003

Originally posted by massdak:
i am concerned that you believe this way. a persons salvation is not dependant on their own ability to keep it.

I'm not saying that salvation is dependent on a person's ability to keep it. If that were so, we'd all be in trouble. But, if, tomorrow, I decided that I no longer wanted to be a Christian, and that I willingly renounce and abandon my personal relationship with Jesus, renounce Christ's gift of salvation, and decided to join the Church of Satan, I'm willing to bet you'd all consider me a lost and unsaved soul.

So I guess I'm not saying you can "lose" your salvation, but you can willingly "abandon" the gift of salvation.

Scott J · Dec 18, 2003

Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
The question is: Did God endow his sentient creatures with free will or not. The answer is yes. If He hadn't, it would not have been possible for Satan and his angel allies to rebel in the first place. Adam and Eve fell because they had free will, and free will was not taken away after the fall--neither from Adam and Eve nor their descendents.

No. Free will was not taken away after the fall. All people of all times have followed their free will according to the inherited depraved nature to rebel against God. We continue in that state until God exercises grace towards us based on His election of us.

Belief in free will does not equate to works-righteousness--that is an erroneous conclusion.

No. But emphasizing free will to the extent that arminians do, does.

Calvinistic determinism makes God the author of sin and man nothing more than a puppet.

Calvinism is not predicated on determinism. It is based on what the Bible says about God's foreknowledge and divine election of the saved. Romans 8 could not possibly spell this out anymore clearly. God foreknew. God predestined. Therefore, we were justified.

It is a despicable theology; theo only other "system" that's as bad is Roman Catholicism.

No... but I agree that you false characterization of calvinism would most definitely constitute a "despicable theology". Thankfully, you are simply wrong about it.

Michael Wrenn · Dec 18, 2003

Daniel D.,

"They"?? Why didn't you include me, also? What you're saying is that I'm not saved. You'd better be careful in making such a judgment; God might have something to show you.

If no one is saved except for you and those who believe as you do, God's not going to need all those mansions; he can stuff all of you into one small room.

Scott J · Dec 18, 2003

Originally posted by Johnv:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by massdak:
i am concerned that you believe this way. a persons salvation is not dependant on their own ability to keep it.

I'm not saying that salvation is dependent on a person's ability to keep it. If that were so, we'd all be in trouble. But, if, tomorrow, I decided that I no longer wanted to be a Christian, and that I willingly renounce and abandon my personal relationship with Jesus, renounce Christ's gift of salvation, and decided to join the Church of Satan, I'm willing to bet you'd all consider me a lost and unsaved soul.

So I guess I'm not saying you can "lose" your salvation, but you can willingly "abandon" the gift of salvation. [/QUOTE]This will only occur if a person is the maintainer of their "salvation". In other words, someone who has never received the Holy Spirit through the divine act of redemption but rather have gone through all of the motions perhaps even fooling themselves.

A person indwelt by the Holy Spirit will not do the things you list above. Granted Christians sin and sometimes badly. But a genuine Christian cannot deny God if God dwells within.

Scott J · Dec 18, 2003

Originally posted by HomeBound:
At what point do you lose your salvation?

At the point where it becomes obvious that you were the author of what you deemed salvation...

If God was the author of your salvation, it would be more likely that you could speak the universe out of existence than you could cause the new creature you have become to revert to the old one that died at the cross (Romans 6).

Johnv · Dec 18, 2003

Originally posted by Scott J:
But a genuine Christian cannot deny God if God dwells within.

So, you're saying, if I abandoned Christianity for the Church of Satan (or shatever), then I was never a Christian in the first place?

If I choose to do so, it's true the God will not cease to be by Heavenly Father, or that Jesus will not cease to be my brother. However, if I disown both of them, do I not then make the choice to no longer recognize them as brother or father.

The last time I read my Bible, God wanted people, not puppets. If we have absolutely no control over salvation, why then do we bother to spread the Gospel? Do we not work to encourage people to turn their lives to Christ, and willingly have a relationship with Him?

Daniel David · Dec 18, 2003

Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
Daniel D.,

"They"?? Why didn't you include me, also? What you're saying is that I'm not saved. You'd better be careful in making such a judgment; God might have something to show you.

If no one is saved except for you and those who believe as you do, God's not going to need all those mansions; he can stuff all of you into one small room.

Michael, I do not accuse you as you may be deceived. I have made my position clear though.

massdak · Dec 18, 2003

Originally posted by Johnv:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
But a genuine Christian cannot deny God if God dwells within.

So, you're saying, if I abandoned Christianity for the Church of Satan (or shatever), then I was never a Christian in the first place?

If I choose to do so, it's true the God will not cease to be by Heavenly Father, or that Jesus will not cease to be my brother. However, if I disown both of them, do I not then make the choice to no longer recognize them as brother or father.

The last time I read my Bible, God wanted people, not puppets. If we have absolutely no control over salvation, why then do we bother to spread the Gospel? Do we not work to encourage people to turn their lives to Christ, and willingly have a relationship with Him? [/QUOTE]The law says do this and live. do you believe that you could keep the law with your free will choice?

massdak · Dec 18, 2003

Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
massdak,

John 1:9; Romans Chapter 2.

what is your point with these verses?
it proves that imputed righteousness is from God alone. if you believe that man has ability without Gods grace for any good what so ever, then read again

Scott J · Dec 18, 2003

Originally posted by Johnv:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Scott J:
But a genuine Christian cannot deny God if God dwells within.

So, you're saying, if I abandoned Christianity for the Church of Satan (or shatever), then I was never a Christian in the first place?[/QUOTE] Yes. But you can prove me wrong. Give biblical example of this occurring.

Judas was called the "son of perdition" (perdition-n : (Christianity) the abode of Satan and the forces of evil; where sinners suffer eternal punishment

. He was not a true believer.

There is no biblical example or biblical proof for what you assert.

If I choose to do so, it's true the God will not cease to be by Heavenly Father, or that Jesus will not cease to be my brother. However, if I disown both of them, do I not then make the choice to no longer recognize them as brother or father.

If He chose you because you chose Him then not only are they no longer your brother or father... they never were. But, if you chose Him because He first chose you then you cannot disown Him until He repents from choosing you.

Orphans do not choose their adopters. Adopters choose the orphans.

The last time I read my Bible, God wanted people, not puppets.

Are your children no longer people because they didn't choose to be your child? Do they cease to be people when you exert your will over them for their own good?

If we have absolutely no control over salvation, why then do we bother to spread the Gospel?

I didn't say that we had no control over our salvation. It is a great mystery what part our faith plays a role in accomplishing what God predetermined for us. The Bible teaches both concepts.

Why do we spread the Gospel? Why did Jonathan Edwards or Charles Spurgeon spread the Gospel? 1) Because God said to do it. 2) Because we don't know who God will save and who will reject Him without His intervening.

Do we not work to encourage people to turn their lives to Christ, and willingly have a relationship with Him?

Absolutely, that isn't the question though. The questions are who chooses who sovereignly and who seals our salvation.

RaptureReady · Dec 18, 2003

Originally posted by Johnv:
I'm not saying that salvation is dependent on a person's ability to keep it. If that were so, we'd all be in trouble. But, if, tomorrow, I decided that I no longer wanted to be a Christian, and that I willingly renounce and abandon my personal relationship with Jesus, renounce Christ's gift of salvation, and decided to join the Church of Satan, I'm willing to bet you'd all consider me a lost and unsaved soul.

And that’s why God said that he alone knows the heart of man. Sure, if you say today that you are saved and tomorrow you join the Church of satan, then maybe you didn’t get saved. But that’s not for me to judge.

So I guess I'm not saying you can "lose" your salvation, but you can willingly "abandon" the gift of salvation.

What some of us here call “backsliding.” Basically, you lose your fellowship with the Father. Example: A boy and his father get along great. They go fishing(for men) together, hunting together, camping together, all the things that a father loves to do with his son. One day the son rebels and disobeys his father. The father uses the “rod of correction” to drive this foolishness from him. That fellowship that the son and father had is now broken because of the son. But, even though the fellowship is not right, the boy is still the fathers child. Eventually the child straightens back up, swallows his pride and asks for the father forgiveness.

Our Father is always there and will never disown us.

LauraB · Dec 19, 2003

I to also believe once saved always saved,but I also believe that if a persons backslides (as some call it)or falls away or continues to sin that person may not have be saved in the first place.If a person is truly born again why would they ever turn away from God,Knowing what Christ did for us.

AMEN!

OSAS here! I am an Idependent fundamentalist.

Servent · Dec 19, 2003

Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
The question is: Did God endow his sentient creatures with free will or not. The answer is yes. If He hadn't, it would not have been possible for Satan and his angel allies to rebel in the first place. Adam and Eve fell because they had free will, and free will was not taken away after the fall--neither from Adam and Eve nor their descendents.

Belief in free will does not equate to works-righteousness--that is an erroneous conclusion.

Calvinistic determinism makes God the author of sin and man nothing more than a puppet. It is a despicable theology; theo only other "system" that's as bad is Roman Catholicism.

Are you sure you have free will,if your will is influenced by anything, such as good or evil then your free will is is not free, you must then make a choice. now you do have free choice.

Servent · Dec 19, 2003

If a person can lose their salvation then they must do somthing to keep it, dosent that make it works?

Michael Wrenn · Dec 19, 2003

massdak,

My point is that we do have God's grace in us--all humans do. Quakers, the Salvation Army, John Wesley, and others believed, and I concur, that John 1:9 teaches that prevenient grace or the Light of Christ is in all--and that this Light was not obliterated by the Fall; by this God draws all toward Him. We can choose to follow the light we have or reject it.

This is the message of such passages as I have mentioned.

massdak · Dec 19, 2003

Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
massdak,

My point is that we do have God's grace in us--all humans do. Quakers, the Salvation Army, John Wesley, and others believed, and I concur, that John 1:9 teaches that prevenient grace or the Light of Christ is in all--and that this Light was not obliterated by the Fall; by this God draws all toward Him. We can choose to follow the light we have or reject it.

This is the message of such passages as I have mentioned.

is it your contention that every human is given the same grace and knowledge to receive Christ on equal footing correct?
it does not seem to work that way. how do you explain those who have never ever have heard the gospel? do they have the same grace afforded to them?
the bible teaches us that man is under condemnation to start with. it is all up to Gods mercy and grace to save some, it is also up to Gods judgment to mete out His wrath to send others to hell.

read romans again, do not try to reconsile Gods judgments and mercy by what you believe to be fair or not.

Rom 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Ransom · Dec 19, 2003

"The light" in John 1:9 is Christ. Verses 10-11 go on to tell us that the world rejected him. So much for prevenient grace.

Michael Wrenn · Dec 19, 2003

And so much for humans having no choice, huh?

Yes, the Light IS Christ, and the world rejected Him, but that does not change the fact that the Light of Christ is still in everyone.

Michael Wrenn · Dec 19, 2003

massdak,

I explain it the way Romans Chapter 2 does. Those who have not heard the Gospel will be judged on the use they make of the light they have.

Makes a lot more sense and is more in accord with God's mercy, love, and other attributes than with the belief that all those millions who never heard of Christ will burn in an eternal hell.

Johnv · Dec 19, 2003

Originally posted by massdak:
The law says do this and live. do you believe that you could keep the law with your free will choice?

If "the law" says "do this" that implies a choice, don't ya think?

Once Saved, always saved

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