Once Saved, always saved

[Michael Wrenn]

Ransom,

You said, "Well, don't blame me if you can't express yourself clearly."

I majored in English in college, wuth a 3.9 GPA, and I'm a professional writer and English teacher; therefore, the problem must be with you--that you can't understand clearly-written expression.

Yes, the wages of sin is death, and men will be judged by according to their deeds; those who choose not to follow the light are choosing to live in sin; those who do choose to follow the light given them will be judged according to how well they follow that light--that is, also by their deeds. The logic of that is simple--do you have trouble understanding that, also?

Maybe a course, or a refresher course, in logic and written expression would help you.

You may declare that I am wrong, but that does not make it so. My interpretation of the scriptures mentioned--shared with many others--is a valid one.

 

[massdak]

Originally posted by Michael Wrenn:
Ransom,

You said, "Well, don't blame me if you can't express yourself clearly."

I majored in English in college, wuth a 3.9 GPA, and I'm a professional writer and English teacher; therefore, the problem must be with you--that you can't understand clearly-written expression.

Yes, the wages of sin is death, and men will be judged by according to their deeds; those who choose not to follow the light are choosing to live in sin; those who do choose to follow the light given them will be judged according to how well they follow that light--that is, also by their deeds. The logic of that is simple--do you have trouble understanding that, also?

Maybe a course, or a refresher course, in logic and written expression would help you.

You may declare that I am wrong, but that does not make it so. My interpretation of the scriptures mentioned--shared with many others--is a valid one.

if you continue to believe in works as a condition for salvation and not to fully trust in Christ to take away sin thus thinking your good deeds will merit your benefit for heaven, then it is safe to say you will die in your sins and your works will fail you. many very smart people do not understand the gospel this is proved in scripture.

 

[Trotter]

Micheal,

You say a lot about "following the light within you". True, John speaks of Christ as the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. But you are dead wrong on the meaning of the phrase.

All believers receive the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation (as far as I know, ALL Baptists believe this). And who is the Holy Spirit? He is God, He is Jesus, He is the Holy Spirit (unless you do not believe in the equality of the Trinity). Thus, all believers have the Spirit of Christ (my paraphrase) abiding within them, and this can be called the light of Christ.

The main problem I see in your usage of the phrase "the light within" is that you refer to ALL people having this "light" in their heart. I am sorry to tell you, but anyone who does not believe in the Lord Jesus Christ does not have the light of Christ, nor does he have any "light" at all.

What you are saying smacks heavily of universalism. But unless a person accepts Jesus Christ, he will die and be eternally seperated from God. Even those who have never heard the name of Christ will face this judgement (Romans 2). Those who have heard the gospel but rejected it will have no excuse. Those who have not heard the gospel have the law that is written upon their hearts and the revelation of God in nature, and will have no excuse.

If I am misunderstanding your usage of this phrase, please clarify it for me.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Trotter]

Originally posted by Servent:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Trotter:
Homebound, we may seldom agree, but we do now. Amen!

I do not understand how anyone can conceive God as being so weak as to not be able to hold onto those whom He calls to Himself. If God is not strong enough to withstand what we puny humans say or do, then I would have to say that He is not worthy of our worship, and would have to turn to Islam or the New Age to find my source.

Thank God that I don't have to! God is able to keep that which I have committed to Him forever. There is nothing that I can do to change that. When He called to my heart and I answered Him, accepting the completed work on the cross, my fate was sealed then and there for eternity.

How can someone "fall away"? Does God have butterfingers? How can anyone say, "I used to believe, but now I don't?" Even atheists call out to God when they see their own end upon them.

I have been mad at God. Mad enough to want to walk away forever. But guess what? That didn't change my eternal destination. God is so much bigger than we give Him credit for. He already knows how we are going to screw up, and He even knew it before we ever accepted Him. But that doesn't change the fact that once you are His, you stay His. End of story. Praise God!

In Christ,
Trotter

In the first place I never said God lost anything, what I was saying is that He never had them.
You also said God is able to keep that which I committed to him,In Kathy's story about Pastor John I would have to say that he was never turly committed.
You also said that you have been mad at God. Mad enough to walk away forever, Tell me this what right to you have to be mad at God, He is your creater, everthing you have you have because of his grace, God dosent owe you anything, us puny humans as you put deserve nothing but eternal hell,but by His mercy and grace we can spent eternaity with Him.We have no right to ever be mad at Him for any reason
Yes I believe a person can profess to know Christ and not be saved,(Matt.7:22-23 Many will say to me in that day, Lord,Lord have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name cast out devils?and in thy name done many wonderful works?And then will I profess to them,I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.) </font>[/QUOTE]"Never had them"? Who are we to judge the heart of a man?

The example story was just that, a story. Again, we do not know the condition of the man's heart. I have seen men stand in a pulpit and preach, with many coming to Christ, who then one day break down and accept Jesus as Lord because they had never knew Him.

Yes, I have been mad at God, and no, I did not have a right to be so. But, know what, God is big enough to let me be mad at Him, whether I was right or not. God is a big guy, and He has a broad back. He already knows the thought and intentions of my heart, so if I am mad with Him, He knows about it. But (and this is the really great part), He still loves me. And He forgives me. And He doesn't bring it back up ever again.

True, as I stated above, there are many who "profess", but do not "possess". Probably many more than we would ever imagine.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Michael Wrenn]

massdak,

You said, "if you continue to believe in works as a condition for salvation and not to fully trust in Christ to take away sin thus thinking your good deeds will merit your benefit for heaven, then it is safe to say you will die in your sins and your works will fail you. many very smart people do not understand the gospel this is proved in scripture."

When you say "you," if you are attributing this to me personally, then I say you are way off base--you neither know me nor what I believe. And one thing is for certain: even an ignorant Christian would know that you and the Holy Spirit are two different entities.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Trotter,

First of all, how do you know I am dead wrong? Considering some of the categorical statements that some of you make here, it would seem that you have the gift of omniscience--except that is not one of the spirittual gifts, and you are not God.

But let's get to the heart of it: You said, "Those who have not heard the gospel have the law that is written upon their hearts and the revelation of God in nature, and will have no excuse." So, what becomes of those who have never heard of Christ? Would a just and merciful God condemn them to hell for unavoidable ignorance? I don't think Romans C.2 or other scripture teaches this. I believe they will be judged on the use they make of the light they have. God knows the heart and the intentions of same. If you do not believe that salvation is possible for those who have never heard of Christ, then you are condemning the vast majority of humans who ever lived to hell-billions of them.

So, do you believe that God created billions of people with no chance to be saved?

To me, that is one of the things I find so reprehensible about Calvinism.

I will state that I am not a universalist, but I will also state that I prefer universalism to 5-point Calvinism.

 

[BillyMac]

Originally posted by Katy:
I dont believe this is what the bible says.

Do all Baptists believe in OSAS? or are their some sects that dont?

My husband and I are looking for a new church, and we dont quite know where we fit. I took a denomination test on the internet, and it led me to Free Will Baptist, but upon reading some of their doctrines, I find them to be unbiblical as well.. so.. Their second choice for me was Church of Christ, but, I love praising God with music too much for that...

Im sort of at a loss.

And I too am at a loss in that your moniker states that you are Emily but when quoting your post it comes up as Katy.

The security of the believer (once saved always saved) is a fundatmental belief of the Southern Baptists' (SBC). One of the tenets of our faith is the scripture, Ephesians 2:8,9 which states:

8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast.

(KJV)

The key word there is "GIFT". Since God gives us the gift of eternal life, He never takes the gift back. God is not an Indian giver. (My apologies to any "Indians" that may be here). It is a gift that you keep forever and ever.

This is the way it was explained to me following my own conversion and this has stuck with me always.

I suppose that if you denounced God or Christ then you could willfully forfeit your gift by your own choosing, but outside of this I'd say that once you are saved, you are saved always, and you cannot loose it.

(aside) Many thanks to Dr. Bob Griffin, for allowing this posting by Emily/Katy to remain here.

 

[TC]

I've believed in eternal security since I first read the NT straight through. Jesus himself said that He held all that the Father gave Him and none will be lost. Nothing can seperate us from the love of God - not even ourselves. The scriptures are full of God's keeping power. Even if we are unfaithful, God will remain faithful because He cannot deny Himself.

One major problem people have is that some will use God's grace as an excuse to live however they please. However, all this shows is that they don't understand God's reward system. Salvation is a gift - we can't earn it. But, God does reward those that are faithful. Those that are unfaithful will see their works burned up, but they will still be saved.

 

[Ian Major]

Hi, Michael Wrenn

I've been looking for a convinced Arminian to give me an insight into their exegesis of Scripture. The few I have been able to contact were keen enough to state their views and to explain some texts according to their understanding - but I've been unable to find one to offer an exegesis of 1corinthians 1:26-29, 'For you see your calling, brethren, that not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty; and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, that no flesh should glory in His presence.'

To me this text clearly reveals that God chose to save a greater number of the foolish/weak/base folk than of the wise/mighty/noble, in order that everyone would know that salvation was entirely of His grace. Now if salvation ultimately depended on man's free-will, God would have to put up with whatever that threw up by way of ratio of foolish to wise, and this text could not have been written.

Can you explain it otherwise?

In Him

Ian

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Sure, I can explain it by another related text--that which deals with camels, eyes of needles, and rich people.

You see, not many of the rich, the powerful and mighty, the wise, etc., are inclined to seek for God and the way of righteousness; they are too puffed up, too "high" in their own estimation to do so.

Remember also what Jesus said about the last and the first.

God has a way of exhalting the humble and bringing down the proud--seems to fit His nature doesn't it? And His nature was reflected perfectly in His Son.

 

[Trotter]

Micheal,

First of all, how do you know I am dead wrong? Considering some of the categorical statements that some of you make here, it would seem that you have the gift of omniscience--except that is not one of the spirittual gifts, and you are not God.

I never used the words 'dead wrong', nor did I declare that I am omniscient.

The only way to eplain and defend any doctrine is with catergorical statements followed by proof (either Scripture and/or arguementation).

So, what becomes of those who have never heard of Christ? Would a just and merciful God condemn them to hell for unavoidable ignorance? I don't think Romans C.2 or other scripture teaches this.

8 The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? Romans 10:8-14

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:16-18

The Bible speaks for itself.

So, do you believe that God created billions of people with no chance to be saved?
To me, that is one of the things I find so reprehensible about Calvinism.
I will state that I am not a universalist, but I will also state that I prefer universalism to 5-point Calvinism.

I believe that God has revealed Himself to man through the revelation of nature. The very awe that strikes a man's heart when he looks up into a cloudless night sky is an awareness of the existance of God.

As far as Calvinism goes, I couldn't tell you the first thing about it, much less its five points. I only know that men must be drawn by the Holy Spirit, and that salvation can only come through Jesus Christ. A for this 'light' that you keep refering to, it sounds a whole lot like universalism.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Trotter,

The Quakers, John Wesley, and the Salvation Army, among others, believed in this Light of Christ, and even the General Baptists believed in it, and they were/are not universalists.

If you'd like to know more about the Quaker concept of it, there is much literature on it.

Blessings,

Michael Wrenn

 

[Trotter]

The Quakers, John Wesley, and the Salvation Army are not Baptists.

General Baptists , from what I have read from your posts, would not fall under that catagory, either.

And, truthfully, with what little I know about the Quakers, I have absoluteley no desire whatsoever to be further enlightened about their beliefs.

Salvation is only through Jesus Christ. It does not matter how much someone believes in their "inner light" as far as their eternal destiny is concerned. If someone wants to follow their "inner light" instead of Jesus, they need to go hang out with Shirley McClaine.

As for all those who have never heard the gospel, who are we to judge God? You say "So, do you believe that God created billions of people with no chance to be saved? " I say, "I believe that God does what He does for His own reasons, and it not for us to second guess His intentions." Read Isaiah 55:8-9.

I do not make up the way things are, but I do have to live within the parameters thereof. The Bible tells us that we have to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. Whether we want to agree with that or not is not an issue with God, because His is the final word.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[Michael Wrenn]

"The Quakers, John Wesley, and the Salvation Army are not Baptists" So, what has that got to do with the discussion? I was pointing out that these people were/are not universalists.

Are you saying that General Baptists are not Baptists?!?! Please!!

Come on, Trotter, the Shirley McClain remark is erroneous. The groups/people I listed believe that the Inner Light is Jesus, as John 1:9 says.

 

[Ian Major]

Michael

'Sure, I can explain it by another related text--that which deals with camels, eyes of needles, and rich people.

You see, not many of the rich, the powerful and mighty, the wise, etc., are inclined to seek for God and the way of righteousness; they are too puffed up, too "high" in their own estimation to do so.

Remember also what Jesus said about the last and the first.

God has a way of exhalting the humble and bringing down the proud--seems to fit His nature doesn't it? And His nature was reflected perfectly in His Son.'

So when the Scripture says, ' But God has chosen', you take it to mean not that He chose individuals but rather class-types. He produced a gospel that would attract more of the lower classes than of the middle and upper sort. Yes, I see how that fits with Arminian theory that doesn't believe in personal election. Man still has God in his grip, dependent on our sovereign choice. But thankfully I was born into a working-class family and so my free-will was better equipped to respond to the gospel. But wait! God, That's Not Fair! If social conditions affect our eternal state, God should have arranged for everyone to have exactly the same advantages/disadvantages. I'm so confused - or I would be if I were an Arminian!

In Him

Ian

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Ha, ha; I enjoyed that!

But, no, that's not what I'm saying at all.

Of course, I'm not surprised that a Calvinist is confused about what a non-Calvinist is saying.

That's such a good dance you did around the scriptures that I know you'd be good at that dance made popular by Chubby Checker.

 

[Ian Major]

Michael

Pity my simplicity - please spell it out in simple words how God arranged for more foolish than wise, base than noble to be saved without imposing his will.

Calvinists like myself have no bother undestanding 1 Cor.1:26-29. God was free to choose any He wanted - all deserved to perish in their sin, so when He has mercy on some, the others have no ground for complaint. And He chose mainly the foolish/base so that it would manifest that we have nothing to do with our salvation - it is all of the Lord.

In Him

Ian

 

[Trotter]

Michael,

Let me put it simply. Salvation can only come through Christ. Not through a case of "warm fuzzies", not through an emotional experience, and not through an ambiguous "inner light". It does not matter how you want to define it, Jesus is the only road that leads to salvation.

Do I think that God is unfair because of this? To be honest, at one time I did. But, as I have matured (speaking of myself, and not trying to make this a slur of any kind), I come to see that it was the only way. God has given us His standard by which we are to be judged, and that is absolute perfection. He even showed us what it looked like throught Jesus Christ. But we cannot be perfect, nor will we ever be. You see, if God changed His rules, He could not be God, because He would have to change His very nature (absolute holiness) to allow us any other access to Him.

Every man is a sinner. It comes naturally to us all. God cannot look upon sin. But, through the finished work of Christ upon the cross, we have a way to God through Jesus. Jesus told His disciples, "No man cometh to the Father but by Me." It was true then, and it is true now. When we accept Jesus Christ through faith, His righteousness is imputed to us; it is accredited to our account. God no longer sees our sins, but, rather, the righteousness of His Son.

How can a man remove himself from this position? That was the basic premise of this thread, and it is one that I have yet to see proven. How can a man undo the work that only God can do? How can a man lose eternal salvation?

No man can be re-lost. He either was never saved, or he becomes a disobedient child.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of people (including our church members), have no idea of what salvation really is. Most Americans will tell you that they are "saved" (at least, here in the South they will), be, when asked, cannot tell you how they know, cannot take you to a definate point in their lives, cannot give an explanation of what it consists of. Most people sitting on church pews have "fire insurance", and not true salvation. They don't want to go to hell, but do not really have a deep faith in Jesus Christ, either.

How can anyone who professes the name of Jesus Christ not be excited about that very thing? How can anyone who has met the Savior not know when or where it happened? How can anyone who has had their sins forgiven and removed forever not know what it means, or how it happens? How can anyone whose life is hidden with Him think that it can be pulled from His hand? I just don't know.

In Christ,
Trotter

 

[bobby c]

I got saved in 1982 over in asia my walk with the Lord was on and off for many of years mostly off I remember one night going to a church service then going out that night getting drunk I got jumped and fought about 7 guys I was driving home and the Lord told me that if I was to continue being a luke waem Christian he would not allow me to go on living, making a mockery of His Holy name. So i stopped going to church moved in with a married woman drank very heavy I joined a hate group KKK I got married and had probley 10 to 20 affairs Then 8 years ago I was under investigation by the FBI my life was falling apart. You know the Lord never let me go during all this many of times I was reminded by Him that I was still His child (I believe if I remaned luke warm He would have destroyed the flesh for the saving of my soul.)during this time I had to have major surgery on my back he used this time to get my attention giving me the disire to read and read His Holy Word. during all this I still knew I was His at times I wished I wasen't because He was allways there ruin my so called fun praise His Holy Name that he never never never let me go.

 

[Emily]

You know.. I guess I can definately see what you guys are saying..

And from the gentlemen above's post, I can definately say that even after I got saved, I "backslid" and came back, "backslid" and came back, "backslid" and came back... and all through it all, I still felt God's hand on me.. I would get with other friends who would talk ill of God, and I would agree with them, but that ill feeling inside of me would be overwhelming, because I knew it wasnt the truth, and that God was real.

Most of the Christians who were with me when I got saved, are no longer walking with God.. One time, while I was away from God, I was talking to one of them. I asked her if she missed church and being a Christian, and she said "sometimes".. and then asked me and the answer was a resounding YES!!!.


Why then did I leave? Why did I walk away from it (as much as God would allow) if I knew it to be true?

I just dont get it... and I was there.