Once saved always saved !!!

[Helen]

In other words, Christ's shed blood PAYING for us meant nothing. We can bounce back and forth between saved and unsaved -- which, in effect, cancels the entire meaning of saved!

 

[natters]

Originally posted by Helen:
In other words, Christ's shed blood PAYING for us meant nothing.

No, that's not "in other words".

We can bounce back and forth between saved and unsaved -- which, in effect, cancels the entire meaning of saved!

So if one can get divorced, that means that the entire meaning of marriage is cancelled out?

 

[Helen]

Divorce is not part of God's economy. He hates it, remember?

Jesus will not sell me off to another. I am His. I will be disciplined and I may kick and scream, spiritually, sometimes because I don't like it, but nevertheless, I am His, bought and paid for. And HE is taking responsibility for me (Romans 8, Phil. 1:6). I am not my own that quit on this path that I have started with Him. I am a changed person. It is not just a changed position, but my old self DIED. It will not be resurrected that I should be able to return to it and kill my new self!

As far as no longer believing, that is impossible! Once you know something is true, that's that. I could just as easily say I don't believe I am breathing air. It would be nonsensical and I, and everyone else, would know that I knew better!

 

[natters]

Originally posted by Helen:
Divorce is not part of God's economy. He hates it, remember?

Yes. But it's possible nonetheless.

Jesus will not sell me off to another. I am His. I will be disciplined and I may kick and scream, spiritually, sometimes because I don't like it, but nevertheless, I am His, bought and paid for. And HE is taking responsibility for me (Romans 8, Phil. 1:6). I am not my own that quit on this path that I have started with Him. I am a changed person. It is not just a changed position, but my old self DIED. It will not be resurrected that I should be able to return to it and kill my new self!

And yet the branch can still be cut off, and the forgiven servant can have his forgiveness revoked.

As far as no longer believing, that is impossible!

Scripture says otherwise, Luke 8:13.

Once you know something is true, that's that. I could just as easily say I don't believe I am breathing air. It would be nonsensical and I, and everyone else, would know that I knew better!

That's a bit absurd. People change beliefs all the time, on all sorts of subjects.

 

[Helen]

When I was little, I had the top bunk. Daddy would stand below and tell me to jump. I had to believe he would catch me. I did, and jumped, and he caught me. After I was caught, how silly would it be to say, "I don't believe you will catch me" when the fact had already occurred?

I believed. I jumped. Jesus caught me. That's that.

 

[natters]

So your argument is that people don't change beliefs???

I used to be Pentecostal, and I used to believe I could speak in tounges. I now believe I was fooling myself.

People change beliefs. Scripture is full of examples.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Rom 8:37-39 (KJV1611 Edition):
Nay in all these things wee are more then conquerours,
through him that loued vs.
38 For I am perswaded, that neither death, nor life,
nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present,
nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature,
shalbe able to separate vs from the loue of God,
which is in Christ Iesus our Lord.

The Doctrine of OSAS is about the fidelity of God not the infidelity of man.

Fifty-four years ago I was saved by Jesus when I believed
God had raised Him from the dead while I confessed Jesus as
my Lord. Then Jesus became my Blessed Savior as well as my
Wonderful Lord. Praise Jesus! I was just as FINALLY SAVED then
as I am FINALLY SAVED now and will be FINALLY SAVED

BTW, i said people from the church didn't visit me when i was sick,
not that they never visited me. They will visit with me when i
am well. (I guess they don't want to catch what I have?)
I was trying to show that the aloof THE ED is sympathetic
to Bro. Fatbacker's plight. Ah well, i tryed

I know there are lots of verses that talk about what we should do
and keep doing. On several venues (including Baptist Board /BB/ )
I've tryed to start topics on GOOD WORKS. Nobody much is interested.

By contrast, everybody like to fussNfeud 'bout TSSS (third saved,
stay saved)

[ October 15, 2005, 03:51 PM: Message edited by: Ed Edwards ]

 

[natters]

I agree with you Ed, nothing can separate us from his love.

 

[Robert J Hutton]

I wonder if 1st Cor 9 v 27 sheds any light on this issue.

Kind regards to all

Bob

 

[Roguelet]

No it's not Natters the word BELIEVE means to commit yourself over to something other than yourself. To put all your faith and trust in something.

Once you commit yourself to christ and follow him you are saved. All Jeusus said to his disciples and others was " come and follow me and I will make you fishers of men " we are his sheep who follow the shepherd and like a good shepherd it is his job to keep us in the flock. Sheep are dumb animals they wander astray, get lost, get taken by the enemy, get hurt etc. It is a good shepherd who watches over his sheep and keeps him safe even from himself. It is a good sheep who trust his master.

 

[natters]

Luke 8:13 "They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

 

[Roguelet]

Most commentaries will tell you the word believe, mentioned there is a Intellectual belief or even a emotional belief. not a commitment of faith belief.

The bible says' even Satan and his demons believe and temble !
James 2:19 and they were not saved

 

[natters]

Yes, only commentaries that presuppose OSAS will teach that.

Contrast it with the previous verse, which people don't believe and thus are not saved.

Yes demons believe, but the new covenant is not offered to them.

 

[fatbacker]

Originally posted by Helen:
In other words, Christ's shed blood PAYING for us meant nothing. We can bounce back and forth between saved and unsaved -- which, in effect, cancels the entire meaning of saved!

Who ever said anything about bouncing back and forth, we are talking about rejection of Gods gift. Having the freedom of choice to walk away because you just don't want to do it anymore. It's about not wanting to do it anymore. To stop funning for the prize,to become unsalty, to nullify all that God has done for you and reject His promises and to just plain and simply say I can't do it anymore.

And no one ever talks about changing the past but you can certainly change the future by your words and actions,the bible is pretty clear about how deadly the tounge is and how like a small rutter that controls the direction of a ship.

You cannot change the past is another nice little phrase that OSAS people like to cling to. You like mentioning the impossible and forget about the fact that we live in the present and we are a second behind the future and we all now what happens when we make bad choices or good in the present and what future events can happen with those choices.

 

[computerjunkie]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Hebrews 6:3-6 is the kingpin of the Security Salvation Doctrine...The type logic used here is called Proof by Contridiction.

The assumption made in Hebrews 6:4-6. (words are used from the KJV1769)

Assume that there is one who was once
enlightened, who had tasted of the heavenly gift, who was made a partaker of the Holy Ghost, who had tasted the good word of God, and who had tasted the powers of the world to come.
Assume they fall away.
Then it would be necessary to renew themselves again unto repentance.
Then it would be necessary to crucify for themselves only the Son of God afresh.
Then that would put Christ to open shame again.

This is contradictory and makes no sense. Christ will not be put to open shame. Christ will not be cruified anew for one person's sin.
The person cannot renew themselves again unto repentance.

QED:
Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV1769 Edition):
It is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavnly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tested the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance, seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

This is the true doctrine of the Security of the Believer straight from the Bible. Note that this Doctrine does not disagree with John 3:16 'that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life

Thank you, Bro. Ed Edwards! That is the clearest interpretation of that passage I have ever heard! I've always heard that passage quoted as a proof text AGAINST once saved always saved. In fact, a previous pastor of mine who believes in OSAS, became "confused" about that particular passage in Hebrews.

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
Did you ever read a 'plan of unsalvation'?
I like to look at the word pictures in the Bible of salvation.

Just 'salvation', yep maybe you can use it.

But one picture of salvation is 'born again'.
How do you get un-born-again?

One picture of salvation is being adopted into the family of God.
How do you get un-adopted?

One picture of salvation is being born into the family of God.
how to you get un-'born into the family of God'.

One picture of salvation is putting on white robes of righteousness.
Does God run a strip joint?

One picture of salvation is joining the bride of Christ.
How do you un-marry Christ?

One picture of salvation is being 'sealed with the Holy Spirit'.
How do you get un-sealed?

Yep, there is no 'plan of un-salvation'.

 

[Artimaeus]

Originally posted by Robert J Hutton:
I wonder if 1st Cor 9 v 27 sheds any light on this issue.

Not really. It isn't talking about Paul losing his salvation. If Paul was hypocritical and did not practice what he preached he would be worthless for what he was called to do.

Castaway G96 ἀδόκιμος adokimos ad-ok'-ee-mos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and G1384; unapproved, that is, rejected; by implication worthless (literally or morally): - castaway, rejected, reprobate.

A better verse which is directly talking about salvation is:

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

I believe (I entrust my spiritual well being to Christ), I HAVE (right now possess), everlasting (perpetual - doesn't end), life. I will not come into condemnation because I have already passed from death to life. The trial is over. The judge has pardoned me, given me diplomatic immunity by giving me citizenship in heaven, and there is no double jeopardy.

 

[Roguelet]

No Natter, common sense tells you this verse is talking about a different word ( Believe ) than the one Jesus said saves you. Everyone knows that......

Belief can be a head knowledge

Belief can be an emotional experence

Belief can be a trusted commited event

Do a word study on the word belief ~ believe.

The first three sowers in the story had a head knowledge and a emotional experense. Jesus said it was the fourth that was actually really saved while the others were not. Roots cannot grow on the conditions of the first three sowers soil. Only the last soil could produce any real fruit. How you can get something other than that out of the parable is beyond me !

 

[fatbacker]

Originally posted by Roguelet:
Roots cannot grow on the conditions of the first three sowers soil. Only the last soil could produce any real fruit. How you can get something other than that out of the parable is beyond me !

In the parable it says the seed "immediatley took root" which means roots can grow in bad soil and you cannot grow period unless God is in the seed. Like Paul said " I sow the seed Barnabas waters and only God makes it grow." So if it grew at all it was because of God. And with out having the Holy Spirit it is impossible to grow at all even in good soil. So these three had the Holy Spirit since we knew at some point they flourished where they were at. But the cares of the world took over and they viewed God as less important or they did not hold on to their faith.

 

[natters]

Originally posted by Roguelet:
The first three sowers in the story had a head knowledge and a emotional experense.

If that were true, then the type of belief and not the duration of the belief would be the issue in the verse. As it stands, the duration is the issue.

Compare it to a husband: when he is tempted to have an affair, what is in jeopardy - his "head knowledge" that he is married, or his "commitment"? The latter. If he gives into temptation, his "head knowledge" is still there. Falling away because of temptation does mean that "for a while" they had head knowledge, but rather that "for a while" they were committed.

Jesus said it was the fourth that was actually really saved while the others were not.

No he didn't. The first had the word taken away, lest they believe and are saved. The second did not have the word taken away, and believed, but only for a while. The third grow, but "becometh unfruitful" because of being choked by thorns.

Roots cannot grow on the conditions of the first three sowers soil. Only the last soil could produce any real fruit.

The root is not the issue. The issue is the fruit produced. The axe is at the root of the tree that doesn't produce fruit.

 

[natters]

Originally posted by Artimaeus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Robert J Hutton:
I wonder if 1st Cor 9 v 27 sheds any light on this issue.

Not really. It isn't talking about Paul losing his salvation. If Paul was hypocritical and did not practice what he preached he would be worthless for what he was called to do.
</font>[/QUOTE]I had never considered this verse before, but I think it is talking about it. What would Paul be "castaway" from, otherwise? The same Greek word is translated as "reprobate" and "rejected" elsewhere in the KJV. My dictionary says "reprobate" means "One who is predestined to damnation", "Rejected by God and without hope of salvation", and "To abandon to eternal damnation".

A better verse which is directly talking about salvation is:

Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Again, that word "believeth" is there - and in the ongoing, continous form in the Greek.

I believe (I entrust my spiritual well being to Christ), I HAVE (right now possess), everlasting (perpetual - doesn't end), life.

I am married, and become "one flesh" with my wife. Yet divorce exists.

The trial is over. The judge has pardoned me, given me diplomatic immunity by giving me citizenship in heaven, and there is no double jeopardy.

Actually, scripture does talk about double jeopardy, about the king completely forgiving a servant, and then later revoking that forgiveness and casting him into prison.