Once saved always saved !!!

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:
Being born again is accompanied by a noticeable change in our life.

Yes, but the change in one's life comes after salvation. It is not a requisite work of salvation, as I'm sure you'll agree.

If later we decide we preferred the old sinful life and turn our back on God, we have lost our salvation.

That's where you err. If we revert back to our sinful life, it doesn't mean we lose our salvation, it means we have ignored the responsibility that our saved lives require of us. If you are correct, and turing back to our sinful lives makes us unsaved, then the change in our lives is a requisite work of salvation, making salvation works based. Scripture says differently.

The Prodigal Son did not lose his salvation. He turned from the responsibility that being in his father's house called for. If the PS parable were an analogy of losing one's salvation, then the father would have kicked him out of his house sans his inhieritance.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

How do you interpret "endure until the end?"

I fail to see how this supports an ability to lose salvation.

Look at the whole chapter, especially the surrounding context: "Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

In fact, this whole chapter appears to be talking about the soon-to-occur destruction of the temple. </font>[/QUOTE]Gaining salvation is by grace alone. There is nothing that we can do ourselves to achieve salvation. But salvation requires a close ongoing relationship with Jesus Christ. I don't call this works. I call it abiding in Him or remaining faithful to Him. Throughout the NT the requirement is spelled out in verses like:

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all [men] for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.


1 John 3:6 "No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him."

*****************************************

Look at MA 10:38. Doesn't "taking up your cross and following Him" constitute what you are calling works? And yet Christ commanded us to do so or we would not be "worthy of Him."

The Prodigal Son did lose his salvation. He did it the same way we could, by sqandering it in riotous living after having been given it by the Father.

He that endureth to the end shall be saved.

 

[DeeJay]

Lets put an end to this myth that those of us who beleve in OSAS think we can do what we want and do not have to obey the Lord because we are already saved. When we are saved we become a new creature. This creature will be obediant and do Gods works. The Holy Spirit abides in us and does His works thru us. If it was up to us and our old selfs we would all fall away. Christ in us, is what keeps us from falling. To say that one could permenently fall away would be to say that Christ abandon us. Our salvation is not dependent on our rightousnes it is dependent on the rightousnes of Christ. When judgement comes Christians will be judged according to the deeds and works of Christ not our own. If you believe we can loose our salvation you have to beleve that Christ failed that judgement.

I believe that Christians do good deeds and obey because we are already saved. I reject the idea that our salvation depends on our own goodness, and not the Lords goodness.

He who hath begun a good work in you, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
Phil. 1:6.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us; but they went out that it might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 2:19.

We are saved by grace thru faith. Once we are saved we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and He begins his work thru us. Thoes that payed lip service to the Lord and did not truly believe will fall away because they are sinfull and are not able to sustain for long. They were never saved. Thous who truly believe in their heart were adopted into Gods family and God will never let them fall away. thoes that are fathfull until the end are the ones who are already saved. And thoes who are truely saved will be faithfull until the end.

 

[Roguelet]

Very Good Points DeeJay

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
StraightAndNarrow: //LOSS OF FORGIVENESS FROM GOD = LOSS OF SALVATION

LOSS OF GRACE = LOSS OF SALVATION //

Assuming that these equations are true, then the
Doctrine of the Security of the Believer Teaches:

Once you are saved by Jesus, You can never suffer LOSS of salvation.
Once you are saved by Jesus, You can never suffer LOSS of forgiviness from God.
Once you are saved by Jesus, You can never suffer LOSS of Grace from God.

Assuming that S&N's equations are true, then the
The Doctrine of OSAS = Once Saved Always Saved, must teach:

ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS FORGIVEN BY GOD
ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS GRACE FROM GOD

I was replying to an earlier post which said that you could lose grace and not have forgiveness from God but still be saved. I too find that nonsensical.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by Johnv:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by StraightAndNarrow:


[qb]

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

How do you interpret "endure until the end?"

I fail to see how this supports an ability to lose salvation.

Look at the whole chapter, especially the surrounding context: "Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

In fact, this whole chapter appears to be talking about the soon-to-occur destruction of the temple. </font>

I would agree that endure until the end and stand firm until the end mean about the same thing. But your statement simply supports my point that it is necessary to remain faithful until the end (our physical death) in order to be saved. Endure connotes the difficulty of doing so in an increasingly pagan world.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

Originally posted by DeeJay:
Lets put an end to this myth that those of us who beleve in OSAS think we can do what we want and do not have to obey the Lord because we are already saved. When we are saved we become a new creature. This creature will be obediant and do Gods works. The Holy Spirit abides in us and does His works thru us. If it was up to us and our old selfs we would all fall away. Christ in us, is what keeps us from falling. To say that one could permenently fall away would be to say that Christ abandon us. Our salvation is not dependent on our rightousnes it is dependent on the rightousnes of Christ. When judgement comes Christians will be judged according to the deeds and works of Christ not our own. If you believe we can loose our salvation you have to beleve that Christ failed that judgement.

I believe that Christians do good deeds and obey because we are already saved. I reject the idea that our salvation depends on our own goodness, and not the Lords goodness.


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> He who hath begun a good work in you, will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.
Phil. 1:6.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us; but they went out that it might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 2:19.

We are saved by grace thru faith. Once we are saved we are sealed by the Holy Spirit and He begins his work thru us. Thoes that payed lip service to the Lord and did not truly believe will fall away because they are sinfull and are not able to sustain for long. They were never saved. Thous who truly believe in their heart were adopted into Gods family and God will never let them fall away. thoes that are fathfull until the end are the ones who are already saved. And thoes who are truely saved will be faithfull until the end. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't believe that you can ignore Christians who 5 years after their conversion are once again comfortable with their old sinful lives. You can't assume that they were all never saved in the first place. In my opinion this is a form of "cheap grace" that has played havoc with our church and greatly minimized its impact on the world. You are converted once 20 years ago and never really follow Him.

This has manifested itself in people being more concerned about placing a Ten Commandments statue at the courthouse than with soul-winning and decipleship. Rather than making us clearly different from the world as the early church was we try to homoginize the world and the church to produce a "christian nation."

Christ said that we should be in this world not of this world. We try to make being a christian too easy by making everyone superficially look and act like us. We are lukewarm and you know how Christ felt about lukewarm christians.

 

[Bartimaeus]

I need to be educated. Please answer the following questions:
1) Why don't you folks who reject OSAS call the parable of the Prodical Son the Prodical Man. You should at least be consistent. Was the "son" no longer the "son" when he was out in the pigpen? (or did he lose his position by turning away from it and just become the prodical man?)
2) When a person turns away from the grace of God, do they actually verbally say, "I no longer want or require the blood of Christ for my sin and I am going to go off into the world from this point forward" or do they just say this in their hearts?
Thanks ------Bart

 

[DeeJay]

I don't believe that you can ignore Christians who 5 years after their conversion are once again comfortable with their old sinful lives. You can't assume that they were all never saved in the first place.

S&N

I agree with your whole post, try to understand my points with out the pre conseaved notion that OSAS teaches you do not have to obey.

I will not assume that people who 5 years after conversion were never saved, I also will not assume they were saved. They may be either. Let me give you two situations.

Person A went to church one Easter Sunday and heard an moving sermon by the preacher. Person A was moved and worried about his eternal life due to a recent close call during a car crash. Person A responded to the alter call said the prayer and was even baptized the same day. However Person A went home and on sundays he wanted to watch football, He never even feels like doing all the stuff other Christians do like help and follow all those rules. He never liked churchey stuff like reading the bible and besides he is already saved right.


Wrong person A has not the Holy Spirit inside of him. He is not a new creature in Christ and because he is the same sinfull creature he is no better then any other sinfull creature with out Christ. The Lord will say He never knew person A.

This is what you are referring to as "cheap grace, or easy beliveisem" This is not OSAS because like Ed says there was never OS once saved.

Person B went to church one Easter Sunday and heard an moving sermon by the preacher. Person B was moved and worried about his eternal life due to a recent close call during a car crash. Person B responded to the alter call said the prayer and was even baptized the same day. Person B truly in his heart gave his life to Christ, at this moment he was indwelled by the Holy Spirit. Person B went to church, however because he was a new Christian and he did not seek out mentors to fellowship with he started going to church less and less. After a year Person B did not go to church anymore. He thought alot about God for some reason and wanted to go but because years had gone by he was almost embarassed to go. But the Holy Spirit was at work, Person B feels guilt and shame, his life is unfulfilled and he knows exactly what is missing. After 5 years of not going to church Person B decides to follow the prompting of the Holy Spirt and do what he always knew was right. He has matured alot since he was saved and starts going to church. Within a year he is doing all kinds of good works and obeying the commandments of the Lord.

Person was saved the moment the Holy Spirit indwellet him. The moment he believed. Even though he fell into disobediance he was saved the Lord was working on changing Person Bs old sinfull nature into a new creature. After 5 years Person B was a changed enough creature to start to show outward signs of the faith that he had all along.


Two things, first I was like person B. There was a time I did not go to church. I had alot of excusses, I worked long hours, no church clothing and shoes, dident know many people, wife was always late, bla bla bla. But I wresteled every sunday with my excuses and I believe I began to fall under punishment. I was defenantly under conviction. The Lord brought me back in line and now he is bringing me back in line in other areas. I supose He will always have correcting to do in me.

Second neither you or I can tell if a person is A or person B. I will not even guess if somebody is saved and backsliden or unsaved. For that matter I will not even assume that the person who shows fruit is saved. Saved and unsaved is a judgement for the Lord, He can see peoples hearts.

 

[Bro. James]

Identify the saved--by the love they have for one another. Real love nevers fails.

Except for Judas Iscariot, Jesus has lost none of the sheep which The Father gave Him.

The saved also do what the Lord said--"witnesses(martyrs) of Me in Judea, Samaria and to the uttermost parts of the earth"--i.e. everywhere.

Selah,

Bro. James

[ October 19, 2005, 06:08 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]

 

[DeeJay]

I am surounded by people doing good deeds. People who are trying to work their way into heaven. Many of them show love for one another ( at least on the surface). If you come to Utah you will see alot of people who spend alot of time trying to do good things and obey there perverted perseption of Gods commandments. I would not want to judge them saved by their deeds, they are polytheists who think they can become gods.

On the other hand I do believe there are saved Christians that are backsliden and show no fruit for now. The Lord will bring them into line.

 

[Bro. James]

"not by acts of righteousness which we have done, but according to HIS mercy HE saved us..."

Those who think they are saved by their good works to not qualify per this statement.

We have just split the religious world into two groups: 90+% by their works, a small % by the grace of God.

There is another sub-group: grace + works. They should probably be included in the 90+ group.

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[DeeJay]

Count me in the small % of grace aloners.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by DeeJay:
Lets put an end to this myth that those of us who beleve in OSAS think we can do what we want and do not have to obey the Lord because we are already saved. When we are saved we become a new creature. This creature will be obediant and do Gods works. The Holy Spirit abides in us and does His works thru us. If it was up to us and our old selfs we would all fall away. Christ in us, is what keeps us from falling. To say that one could permenently fall away would be to say that Christ abandon us. Our salvation is not dependent on our rightousnes it is dependent on the rightousnes of Christ. When judgement comes Christians will be judged according to the deeds and works of Christ not our own. If you believe we can loose our salvation you have to beleve that Christ failed that judgement.

I believe that Christians do good deeds and obey because we are already saved. I reject the idea that our salvation depends on our own goodness, and not the Lords goodness.

Amen, Brother DeeJay -- Preach it!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by DeeJay:
Count me in the small % of grace aloners.

Amen, Brother DeeJay -- Preach it!

 

[blackbird]

Originally posted by Ed Edwards:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DeeJay:
Lets put an end to this myth that those of us who beleve in OSAS think we can do what we want and do not have to obey the Lord because we are already saved. When we are saved we become a new creature. This creature will be obediant and do Gods works. The Holy Spirit abides in us and does His works thru us. If it was up to us and our old selfs we would all fall away. Christ in us, is what keeps us from falling. To say that one could permenently fall away would be to say that Christ abandon us. Our salvation is not dependent on our rightousnes it is dependent on the rightousnes of Christ. When judgement comes Christians will be judged according to the deeds and works of Christ not our own. If you believe we can loose our salvation you have to beleve that Christ failed that judgement.

I believe that Christians do good deeds and obey because we are already saved. I reject the idea that our salvation depends on our own goodness, and not the Lords goodness.

Amen, Brother DeeJay -- Preach it!

</font>[/QUOTE]If DeeJay were preaching this Sunday Mornin'----I'd stay till way after 12 to hear more!! Thanks, DeeJay!!
Blackbird

 

[Pickerel]

Amen DeeJay!!

ONLY CHRIST SAVES!(Not of Ourselves)!

Tyler

 

[Pickerel]

All glory to the gospel of Free Grace!

(Henry Law, "The Raven" 1869)

Christ is the sum and substance of the Bible!

Christ . . .
chosen,
sent,
anointed,
accepted of God.

Christ wondrous in His person, the mighty
God, therefore infinitely glorious to save.

Christ loving from everlasting to
everlasting, with love knowing . . .
no origin,
no end,
no intermission,
no degrees;
with love always . . .
unchangeably the same,
perfect,
pure,
intense,
enduring.

Christ hanging on the accursed tree, laying
down His life a sufficient ransom price.

Christ by His death . . .
closing the gates of hell,
quenching God's fiery wrath,
paying all demands,
satisfying every claim,
glorifying every attribute,
washing out each crimson stain of all His ransomed flock.

Christ gloriously fulfilling every iota of the glorious
Law, saying to each command, 'I fully have obeyed';
and then transferring the vicarious obedience, as
divine righteousness, to His bride the Church, as
her robe for heaven; her luster in the courts above.

Christ purchasing the Holy Spirit, and sending
Him to bless the Church with all His powers . . .
to teach,
to sanctify,
to comfort,
to adorn,
to beautify.

Christ rising from the grave, a proof that God is
satisfied, and all redemption fully earned; a pledge
that the ransomed in their turn shall put on the
beauties of a resurrection body, worthy of a
resurrection state.

Christ ascending . . .
to the right hand of the Majesty on high;
representing all His people in Himself;
bearing their names upon His heart;
receiving all gifts for them;
pouring down all blessings on them.

Christ coming . . .
to institute a glorious reign,
to change the living,
to raise the dead,
to execute eternal judgment,
to fill all heaven with glory,
to awaken the eternal song of never ending hallelujahs!

O my soul, what a flood of tidings of great joy!

All things are yours!

The world!

Things present!

Things to come!

All are yours!

All glory to the gospel of Free Grace!




ONLY CHRIST SAVES!

 

[natters]

Originally posted by HankD:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Hank, revoking of forgiveness, throwing into prison, and requiring one to pay their own debt of sin is "chastening"?

It is a parable teaching a lesson that after we are saved we should forgive one another because we have been forgiven:

The core teaching of the parable is that the forgiving is horizontal between people and if the forgiving is not forthcoming then the "torment" from above is temporary and endures until reconciliation is made.
Hell is forever there is not "til he should pay all" in that place.

I can remember at least one period of time in my life when I said hurtful retaliatory things to my wife and was in mental anguish until I made it right with her.
</font>[/QUOTE]The passage does not say the servant was thrown in prison until he made reconciliation with his fellow servant, it says he was thrown in prison until he paid his own debt to the King - the debt that was forgiven and then revoked. And if he couldn't pay the debt before when he was free, he certainly couldn't pay it when locked up, so I don't think he'd ever get out of there.

Believe what you will. When Jesus tells me that I shall never perish and that I have passed from death unto life I hear His voice and believe it and "know" that I have eternal life (not life on Sunday and then perhaps death again on Monday).

I "know" this as well, just as I "know" I am married and "one flesh" with my wife.

 

[Roguelet]

Straightandnarrow wrote

I don't believe that you can ignore Christians who 5 years after their conversion are once again comfortable with their old sinful lives. You can't assume that they were all never saved in the first place. In my opinion this is a form of "cheap grace" that has played havoc with our church and greatly minimized its impact on the world. You are converted once 20 years ago and never really follow Him.

Who are YOU to say just because a person is going through a dry spell in their life, for reasons you may never know. that they are not saved or they loss their salvation ? Many of the saints in the bible went through dry spells or the desert so to speak and they were saved. You are not God you do not know their HEART and how God is working with them during that time. I hate when people fudge others hearts and motives.

God is not limited by time. To him a day is a thousand years and a thousand years a day !

 

[HankD]

I "know" this as well, just as I "know" I am married and "one flesh" with my wife.

So what? This is not a matter of the "flesh" but eternal life which cannot end and is given in a moment of time in this earthly life which will end.


HankD

[ October 19, 2005, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: HankD ]