"Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Butch5]

The only thing that regenerates the heart and redeems fallen man is the Blood of Christ. When they were following Christ around He had not yet offered His blood as a sacrifice for their sin debt.

Can you clarify that, If Christ's blood is for redemption, why dies that mean they were not regenerated. Jesus said you must be born again, in your opinion is this regeneration?

 

[DHK]

What is your point? The Scripture is not out of context. Judas was Given to Christ by the Father and he was lost.

Judas was "given" to Christ that prophecy would be fulfilled; that God's plan would be fulfilled in that Christ would suffer by going to the cross. Even Christ calls him the son of perdition. At every point in his ministry, even near his death, He gives him the opportunity to repent. He was lost; never saved. He was not "given" in the sense of a saved person. He was never saved, and in that sense, was not given.

 

[Bible-boy]

What is your point? The Scripture is not out of context. Judas was Given to Christ by the Father and he was lost.

Judas was given to Christ by the Father in order to fulfill prophetic Scripture. Judas was not given to Christ in the sense we are using the term "given" here to mean one of Christ's saved followers. What DHK is asking you to do is to provide a Scripture reference that would support the idea that Judas was given to Christ where the term "given" carries the meaning of being a person saved by the blood of Christ and sealed by the power of the Holy Spirit. Stop playing semantics.

 

[Butch5]

Judas was "given" to Christ that prophecy would be fulfilled; that God's plan would be fulfilled in that Christ would suffer by going to the cross. Even Christ calls him the son of perdition. At every point in his ministry, even near his death, He gives him the opportunity to repent. He was lost; never saved. He was not "given" in the sense of a saved person. He was never saved, and in that sense, was not given.

He was given in the same sense that the other 11 were given. Also notice in those verses Jesus says I have kept all that you have given me, past tense. People say all that the Father gives to Christ will be lifted up, who are these "all" given to Christ by the Father? Jesus made that statement past tense. In John 6 Jesus says "all the Father gives me shall come to me," in John 17 Jesus says I have kept those you have given me. All those given to Christ by the Father are between John 6 and 17. They were the disciples and others that followed Jesus.

 

[Cutter]

Can you clarify that, If Christ's blood is for redemption, why does that mean they were not regenerated. Jesus said you must be born again, in your opinion is this regeneration?

Born again of what? Let me answer that for you. Or rather, let the Word answer that for you.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

When one accepts the finished work on the cross of Calvary and the Blood of Christ as atonement for their sin, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, they are born again of the Spirit.

 

[Butch5]

Judas was given to Christ by the Father in order to fulfill prophetic Scripture. Judas was not given to Christ in the sense we are using the term "given" here to mean one of Christ's saved followers. What DHK is asking you to do is to provide a Scripture reference that would support the idea that Judas was given to Christ where the term "given" carries the meaning of being a person saved by the blood of Christ and sealed by the power of the Holy Spirit. Stop playing semantics.

Then maybe you can show me where any of the other disciples were given to Christ in the sense you speak of. All 12 of the disciples were given to Christ in the same sense. I think you guys are not wanting to admit this and therefore are trying to play games with the "sense." In what sense were the other disciples Given to Chrst? Please show Scripture.

 

[DHK]

He was given in the same sense that the other 11 were given. Also notice in those verses Jesus says I have kept all that you have given me, past tense. People say all that the Father gives to Christ will be lifted up, who are these "all" given to Christ by the Father? Jesus made that statement past tense. In John 6 Jesus says "all the Father gives me shall come to me," in John 17 Jesus says I have kept those you have given me. All those given to Christ by the Father are between John 6 and 17. They were the disciples and others that followed Jesus.

This ought to be a warning to all those reading this thread that the doctrine Butch beleives in is not Biblical.
Butch believes that the very one that Jesus called the son of perdition, Judas Iscariot, the one who he elsewhere said: "woe unto that man...", that he is a saved individual.

Acts 1:16-20 "Brothers, it was necessary that this Scripture should be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was guide to those who took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and received his portion in this ministry.
18 Now this man obtained a field with the reward for his wickedness, and falling headlong, his body burst open, and all his intestines gushed out.
19 It became known to everyone who lived in Jerusalem that in their language that field was called 'Akeldama,' that is, 'The field of blood.'
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, 'Let his habitation be made desolate, Let no one dwell therein,' and, 'Let another take his office.' (WEB)

Even the disciples knew that Judas was accursed and that someone had to replace his office. He was an unsaved individual. They recognized that he was not "one of them," but was "numbered with us." There is a difference. Matthias was ordained of God to be chosen as the 12th disciple; for Judas never was. He was an unsaved person all along.

 

[Butch5]

Born again of what? Let me answer that for you. Or rather, let the Word answer that for you.
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

When one accepts the finished work on the cross of Calvary and the Blood of Christ as atonement for their sin, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, they are born again of the Spirit.

OK, let me ask you this, you said,

When one accepts the finished work on the cross of Calvary and the Blood of Christ as atonement for their sin, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

What do you mean accepts? is this believes? If so do they receive the Holy spirit upon belief?

 

[Cutter]

Then maybe you can show me where any of the other disciples were given to Christ in the sense you speak of. All 12 of the disciples were given to Christ in the same sense. I think you guys are not wanting to admit this and therefore are trying to play games with the "sense." In what sense were the other disciples Given to Chrst? Please show Scripture.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

After Judas had departed to do his work of betrayel.

 

[Cutter]

OK, let me ask you this, you said,

When one accepts the finished work on the cross of Calvary and the Blood of Christ as atonement for their sin, they receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

What do you mean accepts? is this believes? If so do they receive the Holy spirit upon belief?

If you believe and receive it, then you can be saved. You can believe Christ died for the sins of mankind, but if you do not accept that pardon for your sin you are lost.
Why is it so hard for you to see this? :BangHead:

 

[Bible-boy]

Then maybe you can show me where any of the other disciples were given to Christ in the sense you speak of. All 12 of the disciples were given to Christ in the same sense. I think you guys are not wanting to admit this and therefore are trying to play games with the "sense." In what sense were the other disciples Given to Chrst? Please show Scripture.

Now you are talking nonsense. The texts of the Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Acts teach us that the 11 were faithful followers of Christ. Thomas calls the resurrected Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28). Peter professes that the resurrected Christ is his Lord (John 21). The witness of the lives of the 11 speak volumes as to their being given (meaning saved by His blood and sealed by the Holy Spirit) to Christ (James 2:14-20).

 

[Butch5]

This ought to be a warning to all those reading this thread that the doctrine Butch beleives in is not Biblical.
Butch believes that the very one that Jesus called the son of perdition, Judas Iscariot, the one who he elsewhere said: "woe unto that man...", that he is a saved individual.

Acts 1:16-20 "Brothers, it was necessary that this Scripture should be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who was guide to those who took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and received his portion in this ministry.
18 Now this man obtained a field with the reward for his wickedness, and falling headlong, his body burst open, and all his intestines gushed out.
19 It became known to everyone who lived in Jerusalem that in their language that field was called 'Akeldama,' that is, 'The field of blood.'
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, 'Let his habitation be made desolate, Let no one dwell therein,' and, 'Let another take his office.' (WEB)

Even the disciples knew that Judas was accursed and that someone had to replace his office. He was an unsaved individual. They recognized that he was not "one of them," but was "numbered with us." There is a difference. Matthias was ordained of God to be chosen as the 12th disciple; for Judas never was. He was an unsaved person all along.

Not biblical? I believe it is OSAS that is not biblical. If anyone is following this thread they would already know that I stated that I did not say Judas was saved. I said He was given to Christ by the Father. You can deny that if you want but it is clear in Scripture. You say even the disciples knew Judas was accused, they knew after Christ told them. In Acts they had received the Holy Spirit who gave them undrerstanding.


Mark 14:17-19 ( KJV ) 17And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. 18And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me. 19And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?

 

[Butch5]

Now you are talking nonsense. The texts of the Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and Acts teach us that the 11 were faithful followers of Christ. Thomas calls the resurrected Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28). Peter professes resurrected Christ as his Lord (John 21). The witness of the lives of the 11 speak volumes as to their being given (meaning saved by His blood and sealed by the Holy Spirit) to Christ (James 2:14-20).

I'm not talking nonsense. Please explain in what sense they were given to Christ. Please explain the difference between the two "senses." The Scripture says they were all given to Christ, I agree that the 11 live great lives and were faithful but what does that have to do with the sense in which they were given to Christ?

 

[DHK]

Not biblical? I believe it is OSAS that is not biblical. If anyone is following this thread they would already know that I stated that I did not say Judas was saved. I said He was given to Christ by the Father. You can deny that if you want but it is clear in Scripture. You say even the disciples knew Judas was accused, they knew after Christ told them. In Acts they had received the Holy Spirit who gave them undrerstanding.


Mark 14:17-19 ( KJV ) 17And in the evening he cometh with the twelve. 18And as they sat and did eat, Jesus said, Verily I say unto you, One of you which eateth with me shall betray me. 19And they began to be sorrowful, and to say unto him one by one, Is it I? and another said, Is it I?

Was Judas saved or not?
Absolutely not! No, he never was. Not at the beginning, nor at the end of his life.
Christ testified to his unbelief. He was the son of perdition.
The disciples testified to his unbelief in Acts chapter one.

It really doesn't matter what they thought before the cross. Even John the Baptist doubted if Christ was the Messiah at that time. We have the testimony of Scripture, of what it says not concerning Judas. Do you accept it?
Even in the Upper Room in the passage you quoted, the disciples did not fully understand what was about to happen to Christ.

 

[Butch5]

If you believe and receive it, then you can be saved. You can believe Christ died for the sins of mankind, but if you do not accept that pardon for your sin you are lost.
Why is it so hard for you to see this? :BangHead:

It is not hard for me to see. However look at the posts and how many times I have to keep clarifying what I said because people infer what they think it means rather than clarify what it means. I am merely making sure that there is no miscommunication between us. I am makingsure that I understand you correctly so that I don't write posts regarding something you never intended in a statement. I am still not sure what you mean by accept.

You have used the words believe, receive and accept. It appears that you are using receive and accept interchangably, is this correct? If so what is your definition of accept?

 

[Butch5]

Was Judas saved or not?
Absolutely not! No, he never was. Not at the beginning, nor at the end of his life.
Christ testified to his unbelief. He was the son of perdition.
The disciples testified to his unbelief in Acts chapter one.

It really doesn't matter what they thought before the cross. Even John the Baptist doubted if Christ was the Messiah at that time. We have the testimony of Scripture, of what it says not concerning Judas. Do you accept it?
Even in the Upper Room in the passage you quoted, the disciples did not fully understand what was about to happen to Christ.

Where are you going? Why do you keep saying Judas was not saved? I never said he was. He was however given to Christ by the Father, that is clear in Scripture.

 

[Cutter]

You have used the words believe, receive and accept. It appears that you are using receive and accept interchangably, is this correct? If so what is your definition of accept?

Wow! To be honest I never thought I would have to define a common word like accept. Strong's definition works for me.

Strong's Greek Definition for accept
// apodecomai // apodechomai // ap-od-ekh'-om-ahee //


AV - receive 3, receive gladly 2, accept 1; 6

1) to accept from, receive
2) to accept what is offered from without

 

[Linda64]

How about the word "trust"? Do you "trust" in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the crosss of Calvary to save you to the uttermost?

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

[DHK]

Where are you going? Why do you keep saying Judas was not saved? I never said he was. He was however given to Christ by the Father, that is clear in Scripture.

Your implication is that he was saved.
He was given to Him by the Father.
Christ never "lost" any of those that the Father gave Him.
Therefore, by logic you deduce that Judas was saved. He was "given" or saved.
This is what you want the reader to believe, is it not.

 

[Butch5]

Your implication is that he was saved.
He was given to Him by the Father.
Christ never "lost" any of those that the Father gave Him.
Therefore, by logic you deduce that Judas was saved. He was "given" or saved.
This is what you want the reader to believe, is it not.

No, I am not equating given with saved, the Scripture says that Judas was given to the Chrsit by the Father. My whole point was, Standingfirm said,

Standingfirm---Jesus keeps all that the Father gives Him and not one of them is lost.

I provided the Scripture as evidence that not all the Father gave to Christ will be raised up.