"Once Saved, Always Saved"

[Butch5]

Wow! To be honest I never thought I would have to define a common word like accept. Strong's definition works for me.

Strong's Greek Definition for accept
// apodecomai // apodechomai // ap-od-ekh'-om-ahee //


AV - receive 3, receive gladly 2, accept 1; 6

1) to accept from, receive
2) to accept what is offered from without

By accept do you mean just believe or does that include all that the gospel says?

 

[Butch5]

How about the word "trust"? Do you "trust" in the finished work of Jesus Christ on the crosss of Calvary to save you to the uttermost?

Hebrews 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Hi Linda,

I don't know if you post was to me or not. If it was, yes I trust in the finished work of Christ. The problem is what does the finished work of Christ mean? It seems everyone has a different definition. That is why I keep asking what seem like rediculous questions. I have been on these forums long enough to know that many times when people are discussing things they are not on the same page and therefore accomplish nothing.

 

[DHK]

No, I am not equating given with saved, the Scripture says that Judas was given to the Chrsit by the Father. My whole point was, Standingfirm said,



I provided the Scripture as evidence that not all the Father gave to Christ will be raised up.

Then what is your point? You argue for the sake of argument. In a previous point I am fairly sure that you admitted that Judas was a saved individual. Now you seem to have changed your mind.

 

[Cutter]

2 Timothy 3:7

That sound you hear is the dust from the bottom of my feet.

Peace, out.

 

[DHK]

Then what is your point? You argue for the sake of argument. In a previous point I am fairly sure that you admitted that Judas was a saved individual. Now you seem to have changed your mind.

He was given in the same sense that the other 11 were given. Also notice in those verses Jesus says I have kept all that you have given me, past tense. People say all that the Father gives to Christ will be lifted up, who are these "all" given to Christ by the Father? Jesus made that statement past tense. In John 6 Jesus says "all the Father gives me shall come to me," in John 17 Jesus says I have kept those you have given me. All those given to Christ by the Father are between John 6 and 17. They were the disciples and others that followed Jesus.

This is your quote. It clearly indicates that you believe that Judas was a saved person. You have a problem carrying on an intelligent debate. Why don't you define your position clearly and save us all some time and effort.

 

[Butch5]

Then what is your point? You argue for the sake of argument. In a previous point I am fairly sure that you admitted that Judas was a saved individual. Now you seem to have changed your mind.

No, I have not stated anywhere that Judas was saved. My point is that of all those given to Christ not every one will be raised up. People quote John 6 and these verses as proof of OSAS and I was providing evidence that these verses do not proof OSAS.

Let me explain,


John 6:39-40 ( KJV ) 39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice in verse 39 Jesus says it i s the Father's will that all He has given to Christ, Christ should be raise up. Should does not mean that t will definitely happen, but that it should happen. OK, now look at verse 40. Here Jesus says it is the Father's will that he who sees the son and believes on him will be raised up.
So it is not those given that will definitely be raised, but it is those who believe that will definitely be raised.

 

[Linda64]

Hi Linda,

I don't know if you post was to me or not. If it was, yes I trust in the finished work of Christ. The problem is what does the finished work of Christ mean? It seems everyone has a different definition. That is why I keep asking what seem like rediculous questions. I have been on these forums long enough to know that many times when people are discussing things they are not on the same page and therefore accomplish nothing.

Christ said on the cross, in John 19:30, "It is finished"...what do you think this means? What was "finished"? If you say you trust in the "finished" work of Christ, in what are you trusting?

 

[Butch5]

This is your quote. It clearly indicates that you believe that Judas was a saved person. You have a problem carrying on an intelligent debate. Why don't you define your position clearly and save us all some time and effort.

Save time and effort? I was having a discussion with Standingfirm when you guys responded to my posts. How did I waste your time? I have spent all this time trying to explain how you guys misunderstood my post because you equated given with saved. Even in the post you just quoted I did not say Judas was saved. It appears you are again equating given with saved. The Scripture says that Judas was given to Christ, he was one of the 12 given to Christ. The 11 believed and Judas was lost but they were all given.

John 17:12 ( KJV ) 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[Butch5]

Christ said on the cross, in John 19:30, "It is finished"...what do you think this means? What was "finished"? If you say you trust in the "finished" work of Christ, in what are you trusting?

When Christ said it is finished, He meant the work which God had sent Him to do. That was the completion of God's plan of salvation. He had taught the disciples and finished His work of redemption on the cross.

the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and all that He has commanded.

 

[DHK]

No, I have not stated anywhere that Judas was saved. My point is that of all those given to Christ not every one will be raised up. People quote John 6 and these verses as proof of OSAS and I was providing evidence that these verses do not proof OSAS.

Let me explain,


John 6:39-40 ( KJV ) 39And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice in verse 39 Jesus says it i s the Father's will that all He has given to Christ, Christ should be raise up. Should does not mean that t will definitely happen, but that it should happen. OK, now look at verse 40. Here Jesus says it is the Father's will that he who sees the son and believes on him will be raised up.
So it is not those given that will definitely be raised, but it is those who believe that will definitely be raised.

John 6:39-40 `And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all that He hath given to me I may not lose of it, but may raise it up in the last day; and this is the will of Him who sent me, that every one who is beholding the Son, and is believing in him, may have life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day.' (Young's Literal Translation)

The word "should" means very little in the context that you are giving it, or are trying to force upon it. Young's translation gives a bit better nuance.
The will of the Father is that those who the Father gives to Christ, Christ WILL not lose; He will raise them up in the last day.
This is God's will. All that believe in him have eternal life, and Christ WILL raise them up in the last day.
The language is very clear. Christ will never lose his own. Never.

Study John 10:27-30. The language is even more clear than it is here.

 

[Linda64]

When Christ said it is finished, He meant the work which God had sent Him to do. That was the completion of God's plan of salvation. He had taught the disciples and finished His work of redemption on the cross.

the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ an all that He has commanded.

Is that finished work of redemption sufficient to keep you saved to the uttermost? Peter said in 1 Peter 1:5 that we are "kept by the power of God"...it is God who keeps us...not ourselves.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Also, Ephesians 1:13-14 says:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

No man is able to break that "seal"....if man could break this "seal", then God's power is unable to "keep us sealed"....however, that is not what God's Word says.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

 

[Butch5]

John 6:39-40 `And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all that He hath given to me I may not lose of it, but may raise it up in the last day; and this is the will of Him who sent me, that every one who is beholding the Son, and is believing in him, may have life age-during, and I will raise him up in the last day.' (Young's Literal Translation)

The word "should" means very little in the context that you are giving it, or are trying to force upon it. Young's translation gives a bit better nuance.
The will of the Father is that those who the Father gives to Christ, Christ WILL not lose; He will raise them up in the last day.
This is God's will. All that believe in him have eternal life, and Christ WILL raise them up in the last day.
The language is very clear. Christ will never lose his own. Never.

Study John 10:27-30. The language is even more clear than it is here.

I'm not the one trying to force Scripture, the word should or may whichever you choose does not mean wiill. The words should or may indicate probability or possibility not a definite. The word will indicates definite. Jesus said those given should or may be raised up and we see that Judas will not be and He was given. Howwever all those believing will definitely be raised up.

 

[Butch5]

Linda---Is that finished work of redemption sufficient to keep you saved to the uttermost? Peter said in 1 Peter 1:5 that we are "kept by the power of God"...it is God who keeps us...not ourselves.

Yes it is.

Linda---1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Notice here you should also have bolded thorugh faith, we are kept by the power of God through faith. What if a person walks away from that faith?

Linda--- Also, Ephesians 1:13-14 says:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

In whom you trusted. What if a person no longer trusts?

Linda---No man is able to break that "seal"....if man could break this "seal", then God's power is unable to "keep us sealed"....however, that is not what God's Word says.

You are sealed as long as you are "in Him." What if a person choose not to continue to be in Him?

Linda---John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Yes these verses are wonderful, and they give great security to those who believe. What if one no longer believes?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

A person who has placed his or her faith in Christ is not going to walk away from that faith. They are not going to 'stop believing'. To stop believing is an impossibility.

Butch, you are sowing discord with your heretical teachings.

 

[Butch5]

A person who has placed his or her faith in Christ is not going to walk away from that faith. They are not going to 'stop believing'. To stop believing is an impossibility.

Butch, you are sowing discord with your heretical teachings.

Can you provide Scripture to show that. No, OSAS is the heretical teaching and is going to send many to hell. I know many who believe OSAS and don't live the way they should. I used to believe OSAS until I began to study the Scriptures. The evidence against OSAS is overwhelming. What I don't really understand is why people defend it so adamantly.

What Scripture supports the idea that it is impossible for someone to stop believing?

Let me ask you this, are the names of the lost written in the Book of Life?

 

[Linda64]

Yes it is.



Notice here you should also have bolded thorugh faith, we are kept by the power of God through faith. What if a person walks away from that faith?

Nobody who is truly born again will walk away from that faith. Read Hebrews 11. Did any of those people listed in the "Hall of Faith" walk away" from the faith?

In whom you trusted. What if a person no longer trusts?

Then I would say that person was never saved in the first place.

You are sealed as long as you are "in Him." What if a person choose not to continue to be in Him?

2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Yes these verses are wonderful, and they give great security to those who believe. What if one no longer believes?

This sounds as though you are living in fear of losing your salvation....as if your salvation depends on what YOU do...not on what Christ has ALREADY done FOR you. Do you REALLY believe what God has promised in His Word? Or are you depending on "working" to keep yourself saved?

 

[Butch5]

Linda---Nobody who is truly born again will walk away from that faith. Read Hebrews 11. Did any of those people listed in the "Hall of Faith" walk away" from the faith?

As I asked Standingfirm, can you provide Scripture that shows no on can walk away?

No those in Hebrews 11 did not, but the Bible speaks of others who did.

Linda---Then I would say that person was never saved in the first place.

With all do respect Linda, it is not what we would say. It is what the Scriptures say.

Linda---2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

Exactly my point, Paul is writing this letter telling the Christians at Corinth to make sure they are in the faith. If Paul believed that they could not be lost why would He say this to them? Notice who Paul is talking to.


2 Corinthians 1:1 ( KJV ) 1Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

If Paul thought they couldn't be out of the faith, then why warn them?

Linda---This sounds as though you are living in fear of losing your salvation....as if your salvation depends on what YOU do...not on what Christ has ALREADY done FOR you. Do you REALLY believe what God has promised in His Word? Or are you depending on "working" to keep yourself saved?

I do not believe in a works salvation, however I do believe that one must remain "in Him" through faith.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Is that finished work of redemption sufficient to keep you saved to the uttermost? Peter said in 1 Peter 1:5 that we are "kept by the power of God"...it is God who keeps us...not ourselves.

1 Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Also, Ephesians 1:13-14 says:

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

No man is able to break that "seal"....if man could break this "seal", then God's power is unable to "keep us sealed"....however, that is not what God's Word says.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

GE

What a beautiful and encouraging, yes, comforting post! Why is it people just will not take such Truth for the end the matter? Your post has the answer. They are also sealed: Sealed not to hear, not to see, not to believe.

I have made peace with this matter, but think it's wrong. I have fought the good fight says Paul, meaning, right up to his last day. Linda 64, keep on! And know for sure, although not in so many words, "No man is able to break that "seal"....if man could break this "seal", then God's power is unable to "keep us sealed".... is exactly what God's Word does say for those with ears to hear and eyes to read and a heart newly created to believe.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Butch:
"I do not believe in a works salvation, however I do believe that one must remain "in Him" through faith."

Now would you say that any through faith might remove himself from "in Him"? Faith is true to its own nature; and as a gift - no, as the gift of God unto salvation, cannot, but believe; faith cannot, deny or betray itself or its Author who is the Saviour of our soul. Brought into the faith - the believing unto one's salvation - one has been brought into Christ. Where is the liar and the murderer from the beginning or untill the end of the world, who will break into that Fortress of the redeemed? Has Christ not triumphed over him and all his works already?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

No man can break that seal... exactly. Not even myself.

God opens doors no man can shut and shuts doors no man can open. His seal is His guarantee that we indeed are His and no man is able to walk away from believing in Him once He, as Paul so succintly put it, is in him.

Jesus said He would never leave us, nor forsake us. That means that even if we do choose to disobey Him from time to time, He is still there. He chastens those He loves when they do sin because He is their heavenly Father. He will, from time to time, reprove, rebuke, and chasten us. But with that chastening, He will correct and instruct us in the right way to go.

Because He chastens us when we sin, there is no way on this earth we can stop believing in Him. He lets us know He is there.