Once Saved - once lost ???

Of course you have the old Pentecostal belief that you can be saved and lost 50 times a day. To most modern Charismatics I have discussed the issue with, they believe you can be saved one time. If you renounce that Salvation, The Spirit will never call you again. His doing so would crucify Christ again.
I have noticed that recently some high profile old line Pentecostals have adopted the can only be saved one time view.

 

I don't have that problem, I have Eternal Life not Temporary Life.

Just saying.

 

Assertion is not truth. You provided no scriptural [KJB] evidence for the OSAS position. All that people have provided for such position has been shown, from scripture [KJB] to not teach OSAS, etc. in several threads now.

If you are simply going to start with an assertion, without evidence in the very OP, how does that look to those not of your position? [Rhetorical, just for thought].

No. It's permanent, a seared conscience, a blasphemed Holy Spirit:

Hebrews 6:6 KJB - If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Matthew 12:32 KJB - And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

1 Timothy 4:2 KJB - Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;​

King Saul is such an example, among others past. I also know of several others among historical Seventh-day Adventists who are permanently lost. D. M. Canright - http://maranathamedia.com/downloads/library/books/History/Adventist/Canright - Man who boarded the Phantom Ship - Vance Ferrell (2004).pdf
and also others like J. H. Kellogg. A. T. Jones. E. J. Waggoner, Hazen Foss., etc.

Non-applicable to OSAS, for a person who chooses to become a castaway has chosen to refuse to obey the truth, believe any longer, and have essentially stopped listening to the Holy Spirit [and nothing more can be done for them].

Though scripturally [KJB] there are certain cases for re-baptism for other reasons [Acts 19:3-5 KJB, etc].

No, it doesn't matter the sin, because all sin is deadly. It is the sin one is unwilling to give up, and repent of when God brings it to light to anyone.

If a person loses their salvation, they are permanently lost. They cannot be saved again, becuase the means by which they were delivered the first time has not changed, by that, it means, God demonstrated everything in Jesus Christ. There is nothing more in the 'bag'. The Father poured out all Heaven in the gift of Jesus Christ. He gave all. That all might live.

To be a bit morbid, I will say the answer depends on the denomination, as some places accept anyone as 'pastor', including those who have absolutely no connection with God, or know anything of His word, or even understanding thereof, or even openly serve the devil [like Masons, etc].

To truly answer, such a person who is lost, cannot qualify as 'pastor' or even as a simple member, in the body of Christ Jesus, ever again, see 1 Timothy 3 KJB, etc. Truly, a person who is in such a condition, unless through the malicious and purposeful services of evil [to bring others with them to destruction, through secret plotting], would never desire to be in such a position.

Those are honest answers, with scriptureal [KJB] evidence where I thought would not overburden the response. I was not attempting to be funny, except perhaps being a bit Elijah in the latter response to the previous question [though it too is true, in a very sad way].

Well brother Salty, I didn't exactly count words, but I pray that it is succinct enough for your [and all] benefit, and to your inclination for brevity.

 

One need look no further than John 3:14-16: "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

If my salvation is temporary, Jesus is not being truthful to Nicodemus.

That aside, one cannot believe in the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith without works while at the same time believe that salvation can be lost.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Without the doctrine of eternal security, salvation ceases to be by grace and turns into a salvation of works. The question then becomes how much works a person is going to put into their salvation.

Those who teach that a person can lose their salvation are really teaching a salvation of works because, if a saved person can ever be lost again, it is because he has failed in his works. There is no failure in the grace of God. There is no weakness in the power of God. So, if this person fails, he must have failed in his works.

That also means that if he doesn’t become lost, then it’s also because of his good works. It is not possible to have it both ways. Either you put your trust in Jesus Christ and His shed blood for the forgiveness of your sins, or you are trusting in good works.

 

You didn't highlight the modifying words. I took the liberty to fix that for you. It must be ongoing active and present living faith.

 

See, then, it now becomes your quote and not mine even though it is ascribed to me...that is quite unethical.

 

No it hasn't.

The op was a conversation starter not making an attempt to prove anything. what does it say about your positiojn when you have to misrepresent the posts of others.

I pray you guys learn what context is.

 

Yes. One can repent and receive forgiveness for one's transgressions. Not once, but seven times, no seventy-seven times.

No, a person can be baptized but once - it's effects last forever.

Different Christian sects have different rules, so it all depends upon the particular sect.

From what I understand all sins can be forgiven, except of course the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit. (I would not want to be guilty of that one).

Seventy-seven times perhaps? Or perhaps God's mercy is unlimited? (I certainly hope this is the case)

Different Christian sects have different rules, so it all depends on the particular sect I think.

 

I understand this is a Baptist Board, but not all Baptists subscribe to the particular OSAS teaching as they see it as error, or deviation from truth, also.

That you would say, "there [w]as no need to provide Scripture", concerns me a little, since this is a 'Baptist Board', where all matters of faith and practice are to be based upon thus saith the LORD. I was simply pointing out the assertion without even a single scripture reference to which study may take place over. I do not accept others assertions in these matters. To start a thread with an assertion without evidence to support it, or at least to explain from what basis you presently believe such, means that the thread began with the postion of 'No matter what evidence is brought from outside my position, I will not change my mind.' attitude. Should it not rather be, let's start with Genesis [as all doctrine may be found in seed form there, and so also in the Sanctuary; Psalms 77:13 KJB] and go through, and see the whole picture, and look at the details, ask questions of the scripture, and of one another, in brotherly charity.

For instance, in my prayerfully studied and tested [by scripture, KJB] position, I am not trying to take away anyone's salvation in Christ Jesus, their assurance in Christ Jesus, or promote the idea that any must fail of it, but that the scripture teaches the possibility exists to cast away that which was received and was freely given as a gift. I have also, in addition to scripture [KJB], personal testimony of a friend who believed OSAS, and because of the teaching in its conclusions, led him to treat sin lightly, and nearly cost him his marriage, and he ended up in jail for a time, and has a record with the state, and was giving up on God.

For instance, the Sanctuary service, was a model, or type of the plan of redemption.

At the gate it required the sacrifice. There the person, the sinner, came with repentant heart, with the sacrifice required by God, and thus confessed their sins over the sacrifice, while the priest stood there, and the sinner, the repentant, would then slay the sacrifice. The sinner was forgiven. They could go free of their sin, which was in type transfered to the sacrifice, in the blood thereof. They were to go from there in God's provided grace, to walk anew in the Law of God, knowing what it cost God to forgive them. The sin did not then disappear or become blotted out, but there was a further work to do by the priest, and later Highpriest with this transferred sin. It lay in the sanctuary in type, recorded in the blood, there, upon the veil before the Mercy Seat and Ark. Then in the end of the religious year, all of forgiven Israel, the peoples, had to come and present themselves before God. In this day, there was the possibility that they could still be cut off from Israel, and their sins placed back upon them. In the sanctuary, the sin was "covered" by the "blood", not eradicated yet. The record remained on file, as it were, until this final day [the Day of the LORD], where the High priest went in before God, bearing upon the breast plate of judgment, all the names of the children of Israel. The repentant and forgiven sinner was living in probationary time. This was the time of the review board, as it were. Angels are probationary officers. We check in with the office of correction through prayer, as angels are the ones who record and take those prayers to Heaven [Daniel 9:20-23; Matthew 18:10; Acts 10:1-5 KJB, etc].

Leviticus 23:29 KJB - For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

Leviticus 23:30 KJB - And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people.​

How then, would the OSAS position, stand even this Sanctuary test? Therefore, when looking at any other text or passage of scripture, it must be in harmony with this [John 10:35 KJB]. The NT writers, knew these things, as they are constantly speaking of the Sanctaury, and its purposes.

Jesus is fulfilling the feasts in their proper order, timing and seasons.

Well, thank you for the compliment, as it is truly appreciated from yourself, brother [I like you], as it is rather difficult for me to shrink-wrap and vacuum-pack my answers, as I am used to detailed evidences, and hundreds of scripture references for everything I believe, practice.

Can I disagree with you about agreeing to disagree? As I disagree with such a statement, and do not find it has foundation in the word of God.

 

God's mercy is extened only for a period of time, and is not without limit. God is "long-suffering", not endlessly suffering [which is another reason to know He does not believe in eternal torments].

Exodus 34:6 KJB- And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,​

For instance, God was longsuffering with Pharaoh. God was longsuffering with King Saul. God was longsuffering with Judas. God was longsuffering with Cain. God was longsuffering with Lucifer.

Matthew 17:17 KJB - Then Jesus answered and said, O faithless and perverse generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him hither to me.​

Our Father which art in Heaven is full of mercy and compassion, but He is also just and righteous and holy:

Numbers 14:27 KJB - How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, which murmur against me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they murmur against me.
​

God has indeed multitude of tender mercies, yet God has set a time for each and also neither is His anger forever [again another reason to understand God's character in the matter of the destruction of the wicked, and not their eternal tormenting]:

Psalms 79:5 KJB - How long, LORD? wilt thou be angry for ever? shall thy jealousy burn like fire?
​

Notice:

Romans 2:4 KJB - Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Romans 2:5 KJB - But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Romans 2:6 KJB - Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

2 Peter 3:8 KJB - But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2 Peter 3:9 KJB - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Peter 3:10 KJB - But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
​

Sin has a limited time, and is living on borrowed time:

James 1:15 KJB - Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Act 14:16 KJB - Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

Act 17:26 KJB - And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

Act 17:27 KJB - That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

Act 17:30 KJB - And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Act 17:31 KJB - Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.​

 

John 3

36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Even Jesus Christ equates belief to obedience.

The correct perspective is parenthood. A good parent doesn't bill you for the good they do for you, it is a free gift.

So lets not mixed God's motive and intention to save us with our cooperation or refusal to be helped.

If salvation was just a matter of longevity and immortality even when we were nothing we had those things.

God the Father looks at you the child and sees that you are attacked by sin. If the issue here was hey believe me zap there goes all your sin tada, Jesus would have clearly stated this rather then give long lists of do's and don'ts.

Jesus Christ says we should learn from him and scripture states he is the example we are to follow.

I didn't see Jesus grovel for someone else to pay him off.

22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

Works improves faith. Can a incomplete or flawed faith save you?

Complete knowledge is very inclusive of belief. If you KNOW a tire is Round, you obviously believe it is round.
If you know when you snap your finger a chicken falls out the sky then there is a obvious complete trust/faith involved there too.

According to scripture not only can you MERELY have ALL FAITH, but you can be totally omniscient, knowing everything, prophecy knowing all future, having complete faith. BELIEVE completely with full knowledge and you don't have good works aka LOVE, you have nothing.

The commandments is Love God and Love Neighbor.

1 Corinthians 13
2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

^the capacity stated here not only includes all faith, but the actual knowledge and knowing of the truth and all mysteries. Belief is sealed perfectly in the knowledge. and yet because the person lacks GOOD WORK that is LOVE they are NOTHING.

1 timothy 1

5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.




The Character of God is a LOVING FATHER.

He can have you in heaven doing exactly as he commands at a snap of a finger.

But that isn't good enough. The Goal is your proper instruction.

 

well, Jesus held to OSAS in John 6:37-40, so why don't you?

 

Key word "believeth", active present ongoing action ... Jesus will lose nothing, of those that "believeth", and so endureth unto the end, the same shall be saved:

John 6:45 KJB - It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 6:51 KJB - I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 6:54 KJB - Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.​

It is not a one time eating or drinking, but a continual daily, moment by moment feeding upon the word, an active living abiding believing with all thine heart ...

Matthew 10:22 KJB - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 24:13 KJB - But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 13:13 KJB - And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
​

Some will continue unto the end, some will choose not to remain:

John 6:66 KJB - From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

John 6:67 KJB - Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

John 6:69 KJB - And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
​

as it is written:

"... One saying of the Saviour must not be made to destroy another. ..." - The Great Controversy 1911, 370.2​

 

Isn't it odd that getting baptized with water is automatically everlasting, but getting baptized with the Holy Ghost is not?

 

After years of studying and debating salvation, I have come to ponder whether a person who does not understand "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast" can really have been saved by grace. The moment you begin talking about sin and works in relation to getting saved or staying saved you speak in direct opposition to grace. Jesus and the Apostles were emphatic about this, yet still we see men wanting to be saved by their own goodness. Quite sad actually when you reflect on the cross of Jesus Christ.

 

Don't know who ever said the first half, but consider the second half:

Acts 4:

Act 4:32 KJB - And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.​

Acts 5, continuing from Acts 4, notice the first word:

Act 5:1 KJB - But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

Act 5:2 KJB - And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

Act 5:3 KJB - But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Act 5:4 KJB - Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

Act 5:5 KJB - And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

Act 5:6 KJB - And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

Act 5:7 KJB - And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

Act 5:8 KJB - And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

Act 5:9 KJB - Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Act 5:10 KJB - Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

Act 5:11 KJB - And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.
​

Both were "believers" among the "multitiude", and they had at one point "one heart" with them all, but then they allowed the temptation of satan, of the love of money, to spring up in them, a root of evil, and it cost them all. They are lost. They lied to the Holy Ghost, which they had been partakers of with the multitude, under pentecostal power, thus lied to God in His very presence. They grieved away the Holy Spirit, and are lost. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour [near brother]- Exodus 20:16 KJB.

 

Was it you who said to me in another thread that you cannot judge even your own heart if you will be saved? But you can judge these two are lost?

 

Why do non Cal Baptists embrace OSAS? I see no logical way you can hold, let alone defend, OSAS without embracing the other 4 points.